I have enough. Time for FOWLR tank?

Gargamel35 · 04/22/2019, 08:03 AM

I'm in this hobby couple of years now and i'm not really unsuccessfull. My 120 gallon reef tank holds nice number of LPS and SPS corals. They grow too

I run balling method, phosphate filter, 4 pumps, adding other stuff to the tank, watch for light, RO/DI water, etc. I have only 3 fishes because if i want to add another one, some other pro guy will advise me not too for coral safety.
So it looks like it's all good right? Well no, i'm sick of it. Despite having all parameters great and corals/fish are doing great, i battle a big cyano algae outburst. It's been half a year already and nothing works...NOTHING.

Anything i do, it hurts the corals. And this is a story of my tank really. Anything goes wrong, some coral gets killed. I just don't want to deal with this any more. I hate to look at my tank because cyano makes everything ugly. Then i see some random coral dying and so on and so on. This hobby demands a lot of money input, time input, know/how and luck. I'm not from USA, so i can't get some very nice drugs you guys can to battle problems, and prices of corals are a lot higher here then in USA.

So...i'm thinking to sell all my corals (or almost all). Suck all the sand out (cyano) and add a lot more fish and other animals. I want a FOWLR tank.
I can quit balling method, lights are good for a long time, pumps are just fine. I should keep phosphate filter probably.

Would that be a good idea, or are there other big problems with FOWLR no sand tanks? How could i improve the look of a bottom?

Uncle99 · 04/22/2019, 08:13 AM

Your parameters are likely not in the appropriate range, I suspect also high nitrates and low phosphate connected to your cyano problem.

To me, FOWLR is boring, but that’s just me.

Gargamel35 · 04/22/2019, 08:21 AM

No, nitrates are 0, phosphates are around 0,03 right now.

Uncle99 · 04/22/2019, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargamel35

No, nitrates are 0, phosphates are around 0,03 right now.

Nitrates are never zero
What is the ppm TDS of your source water and then the ppm after the DI stage
Cyano seems to like silicates

Gargamel35 · 04/22/2019, 08:43 AM

Well tests show it's 0 or very close to 0 (not just one type of test).

I don't know about TDS of the source water right now, but TDS of water after DI stage is 0.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/22/2019, 08:45 AM

I think if you're at the point that you're not enjoying the hobby anymore , than it's perfectly understandable to stop. Many of us have been through the frustrations of caring for a reef tank, and some are good enough/lucky enough to be successful, while others don't have the time, experience, patience, money...etc to keep a successful reef. Although there are always more things you can try to get things turned around, if you're not going to enjoy putting in the effort and resources, than it makes sense to scale back to a level that you'd enjoy.

If you're going to make the switch, I'd sugest you can sell your corals as quickly as you'd like, and can keep some hardy ones if you'd like. Then, you can begin to slowly siphon out some of the sand every week over a long time so you don't cause the tank to cycle again. Keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, nitrates while you do this so you can slowdown if needed.

You can help keep the bottom clear by adding alot of flow directed at the bottom to keep detritus suspended and taken out by mechanical filtration via the overflow. FOWLR is more forgiving as far as critter sensitivity for sure, but you'll still get algea if the water quality favors algea growth. It's just easier to take care of it if you don't have to worry about coral in the tank at the same time. For instance, you can do lights out for a week instead of just 3 days with coral. Or you can use more aggressive filtration and not worry about 0 nitrates or phosphates as the fish don't need it like corals do.

FOWLR does open up a new door for what fish you are able to keep, so can still have some new and exciting options for your tank that you wouldn't be able to do with a reef tank. I appreciate both reef tanks and FOWLR. If you end up missing having coral, you can always try again down the road, depending on what fish you have added. I think it's important to keep the hobby enjoyable. To some, that means putting in alot of time and effort to keep a pristine reef, for others that means having a more hands off and less stressful FOWLR.

Potsy · 04/22/2019, 11:38 AM

I have had to reset my tank so many times, I've lost count. Dinoflagellates, cyano that was replaced by dinoflagellates when I eradicated it, several bouts of asparagopsis algae that is inedible because of the bromide content, etc. Fortunately it always happened when my tank was barely stocked, so the resets were easy. The urge to go with FOWLR was always at the back of my mind.

If you're not happy with the reef, go with FOWLR. There are so many interesting fish you could keep. And if you still have the urge for coral down the road, get a few noxious leathers that most of the coral eating fish won't touch.

Gargamel35 · 04/23/2019, 02:29 AM

I'm thinking about selling corals first. Maybe i'll keep the sand and try to kill cyano with blackout or other methods i can easier use iwthout corals inside.
Then i'll add more live rock and fish/other animals.

But...could there be a problem if i remove all corals in very short time?

rygar · 04/23/2019, 03:20 AM

I hear ya man. I have a 60 gallon tank that I've given up on because of cyano. Lights out...huge water changes every other day for weeks....hundreds of dollars in salt. Huge water flow. For what...NOTHING. Just to watch the cyano continue to go nuts.
Also have a nano cube. Same problem.
So frustrating I could scream.
The ONLY thing left it could possibly be is phosphate leaching out of the rocks. Nothing you can do about that other than wait...and wait..and wait. Or take it out and "cook them". Screw that.
Maybe that's your problem too. I don't know. Just know that your not the only one that is in this boat. Cyano absolutely sucks the life out of you.
So I say absolutely without a doubt go for it. Maybe replace your rocks when you start over.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/23/2019, 08:54 AM

No issue with taking out coral quickly. Even a tank stuffed full of coral can have them all removed at once without issue if you so choose.

Cyano and other algae issues sure can take a mental toll on you. I've had cyano bad enough in the past that I just wanted a break and walked away from my tank for a week other than feeding the fish, and it smothered and killed a few corals. I ended up sticking with it and eventually solved it with a more rigorous maintenance routine, GFO, daily manual removal, and several rounds of chemiclean. I still get it from time to time, but never very bad, and I quickly remove any trace I find as I know how bad it can get out of hand.

Do you vacuum your sand? it's possible it's got a build up of detritus that's breaking down and fueling the cyano. If getting rid of the coral, I'd probably vacuum the sand, do a decent water change, and black out the tank for a couple of weeks. Wrap tank in newspaper, or aluminum foil to block all light and continue with normal filter maintenance. When done, see how things look and maybe do another large water change to get any of the dieoff nutrients out. That should give you a good start to get back to enjoying your tank and can start looking at some of the non-reef safe fish that many of us don't get to enjoy.

Uncle99 · 04/23/2019, 09:05 AM

Cyano is mainly present in non mature tanks with instabilities in nutrients and their export.
Out of 50 or so customers I know which keep consistent on point water 100%, complete a manual or automated WC weekly, tank is greater than 14 months, none have had or has gotten cyano.

If your getting small amounts from time to time that's ok and normal, if it's larger and persistent, check parameters, correct if necessary, and maintain them day in and out.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/23/2019, 11:50 AM

I think it has been proven many times that with persistent and diligent maintenance and a solid filtration/dosing/water change plan that tanks can get past having cyano. I don't think everyone has it in them to want to go through the amount of time, effort, and money that can be required to do this though. There are many levels of how deep into the hobby you want to get, and I think finding the level that gives you the most enjoyment is the trick. I don't think anyone would argue that a FOWLR tank will be easier/cheaper to maintain and less stressful when worrying about all of the parameters necessary to maintain healthy coral.

Being that this is a reefing forum, clearly there will be an abundance of people how care more about keeping coral than anything, and consider coral keeping the hobby more so than fish keeping. I am among those people, and pay way more attention to my coral than I do my fish. I started the other way, never thinking I'd ever want to try coral due to the amount of work required, but after having a FOWLR tank for 6 months, I decided to take the plunge when I saw there was a frag swap near me. Since then I've gotten more and more into keeping coral more than keeping fish. There is another side to the hobby though, which is fish keeping, or even keeping some other specialized type of tank. Heck, there's people who dedicate an entire huge set up to keeping an octopus. It's all about finding what you enjoy. And of course, that includes both the livestock you like, and the related maintenance that comes along with it.

If the OP would like to stick with coral and keep trying to get past the issues he's had than there's an endless amount of people on RC that are more than willing to help. That's just not the path for everyone though.

Maybe look into some non-reef safe fish and see if anything excited you there. you may be more excited to have predator fish than watching a frag of coral grow. And often times with alot less expense than is required to keep a coral tank going.

kupadupapupa · 04/25/2019, 03:54 AM

I have had the same issues, battling cyano and GHA for 2 years. Eventually I gave up, stopped doing water changes, started using tap water due to not feeling motivated to mix salt and a little over 1 year later the cyano and hair algae is almost gone. Too bad it takes this long but I don't know what could have possibly been causing the outbreak for the past 2 years.

04/22/2019, 08:03 AM	#1
Gargamel35 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 71	I have enough. Time for FOWLR tank? I'm in this hobby couple of years now and i'm not really unsuccessfull. My 120 gallon reef tank holds nice number of LPS and SPS corals. They grow too I run balling method, phosphate filter, 4 pumps, adding other stuff to the tank, watch for light, RO/DI water, etc. I have only 3 fishes because if i want to add another one, some other pro guy will advise me not too for coral safety. So it looks like it's all good right? Well no, i'm sick of it. Despite having all parameters great and corals/fish are doing great, i battle a big cyano algae outburst. It's been half a year already and nothing works...NOTHING. Anything i do, it hurts the corals. And this is a story of my tank really. Anything goes wrong, some coral gets killed. I just don't want to deal with this any more. I hate to look at my tank because cyano makes everything ugly. Then i see some random coral dying and so on and so on. This hobby demands a lot of money input, time input, know/how and luck. I'm not from USA, so i can't get some very nice drugs you guys can to battle problems, and prices of corals are a lot higher here then in USA. So...i'm thinking to sell all my corals (or almost all). Suck all the sand out (cyano) and add a lot more fish and other animals. I want a FOWLR tank. I can quit balling method, lights are good for a long time, pumps are just fine. I should keep phosphate filter probably. Would that be a good idea, or are there other big problems with FOWLR no sand tanks? How could i improve the look of a bottom?

04/22/2019, 08:13 AM	#2
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Your parameters are likely not in the appropriate range, I suspect also high nitrates and low phosphate connected to your cyano problem. To me, FOWLR is boring, but that’s just me.

04/22/2019, 08:21 AM	#3
Gargamel35 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 71	No, nitrates are 0, phosphates are around 0,03 right now.

04/22/2019, 08:43 AM	#5
Gargamel35 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 71	Well tests show it's 0 or very close to 0 (not just one type of test). I don't know about TDS of the source water right now, but TDS of water after DI stage is 0.

04/22/2019, 08:45 AM	#6
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I think if you're at the point that you're not enjoying the hobby anymore , than it's perfectly understandable to stop. Many of us have been through the frustrations of caring for a reef tank, and some are good enough/lucky enough to be successful, while others don't have the time, experience, patience, money...etc to keep a successful reef. Although there are always more things you can try to get things turned around, if you're not going to enjoy putting in the effort and resources, than it makes sense to scale back to a level that you'd enjoy. If you're going to make the switch, I'd sugest you can sell your corals as quickly as you'd like, and can keep some hardy ones if you'd like. Then, you can begin to slowly siphon out some of the sand every week over a long time so you don't cause the tank to cycle again. Keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, nitrates while you do this so you can slowdown if needed. You can help keep the bottom clear by adding alot of flow directed at the bottom to keep detritus suspended and taken out by mechanical filtration via the overflow. FOWLR is more forgiving as far as critter sensitivity for sure, but you'll still get algea if the water quality favors algea growth. It's just easier to take care of it if you don't have to worry about coral in the tank at the same time. For instance, you can do lights out for a week instead of just 3 days with coral. Or you can use more aggressive filtration and not worry about 0 nitrates or phosphates as the fish don't need it like corals do. FOWLR does open up a new door for what fish you are able to keep, so can still have some new and exciting options for your tank that you wouldn't be able to do with a reef tank. I appreciate both reef tanks and FOWLR. If you end up missing having coral, you can always try again down the road, depending on what fish you have added. I think it's important to keep the hobby enjoyable. To some, that means putting in alot of time and effort to keep a pristine reef, for others that means having a more hands off and less stressful FOWLR.

04/22/2019, 11:38 AM	#7
Potsy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Kinnelon, NJ Posts: 1,827	I have had to reset my tank so many times, I've lost count. Dinoflagellates, cyano that was replaced by dinoflagellates when I eradicated it, several bouts of asparagopsis algae that is inedible because of the bromide content, etc. Fortunately it always happened when my tank was barely stocked, so the resets were easy. The urge to go with FOWLR was always at the back of my mind. If you're not happy with the reef, go with FOWLR. There are so many interesting fish you could keep. And if you still have the urge for coral down the road, get a few noxious leathers that most of the coral eating fish won't touch.

04/23/2019, 02:29 AM	#8
Gargamel35 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 71	I'm thinking about selling corals first. Maybe i'll keep the sand and try to kill cyano with blackout or other methods i can easier use iwthout corals inside. Then i'll add more live rock and fish/other animals. But...could there be a problem if i remove all corals in very short time?

04/23/2019, 03:20 AM	#9
rygar Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: michigan Posts: 282	I hear ya man. I have a 60 gallon tank that I've given up on because of cyano. Lights out...huge water changes every other day for weeks....hundreds of dollars in salt. Huge water flow. For what...NOTHING. Just to watch the cyano continue to go nuts. Also have a nano cube. Same problem. So frustrating I could scream. The ONLY thing left it could possibly be is phosphate leaching out of the rocks. Nothing you can do about that other than wait...and wait..and wait. Or take it out and "cook them". Screw that. Maybe that's your problem too. I don't know. Just know that your not the only one that is in this boat. Cyano absolutely sucks the life out of you. So I say absolutely without a doubt go for it. Maybe replace your rocks when you start over.

04/23/2019, 08:54 AM	#10
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	No issue with taking out coral quickly. Even a tank stuffed full of coral can have them all removed at once without issue if you so choose. Cyano and other algae issues sure can take a mental toll on you. I've had cyano bad enough in the past that I just wanted a break and walked away from my tank for a week other than feeding the fish, and it smothered and killed a few corals. I ended up sticking with it and eventually solved it with a more rigorous maintenance routine, GFO, daily manual removal, and several rounds of chemiclean. I still get it from time to time, but never very bad, and I quickly remove any trace I find as I know how bad it can get out of hand. Do you vacuum your sand? it's possible it's got a build up of detritus that's breaking down and fueling the cyano. If getting rid of the coral, I'd probably vacuum the sand, do a decent water change, and black out the tank for a couple of weeks. Wrap tank in newspaper, or aluminum foil to block all light and continue with normal filter maintenance. When done, see how things look and maybe do another large water change to get any of the dieoff nutrients out. That should give you a good start to get back to enjoying your tank and can start looking at some of the non-reef safe fish that many of us don't get to enjoy.

04/23/2019, 09:05 AM	#11
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	Cyano is mainly present in non mature tanks with instabilities in nutrients and their export. Out of 50 or so customers I know which keep consistent on point water 100%, complete a manual or automated WC weekly, tank is greater than 14 months, none have had or has gotten cyano. If your getting small amounts from time to time that's ok and normal, if it's larger and persistent, check parameters, correct if necessary, and maintain them day in and out.

04/23/2019, 11:50 AM	#12
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I think it has been proven many times that with persistent and diligent maintenance and a solid filtration/dosing/water change plan that tanks can get past having cyano. I don't think everyone has it in them to want to go through the amount of time, effort, and money that can be required to do this though. There are many levels of how deep into the hobby you want to get, and I think finding the level that gives you the most enjoyment is the trick. I don't think anyone would argue that a FOWLR tank will be easier/cheaper to maintain and less stressful when worrying about all of the parameters necessary to maintain healthy coral. Being that this is a reefing forum, clearly there will be an abundance of people how care more about keeping coral than anything, and consider coral keeping the hobby more so than fish keeping. I am among those people, and pay way more attention to my coral than I do my fish. I started the other way, never thinking I'd ever want to try coral due to the amount of work required, but after having a FOWLR tank for 6 months, I decided to take the plunge when I saw there was a frag swap near me. Since then I've gotten more and more into keeping coral more than keeping fish. There is another side to the hobby though, which is fish keeping, or even keeping some other specialized type of tank. Heck, there's people who dedicate an entire huge set up to keeping an octopus. It's all about finding what you enjoy. And of course, that includes both the livestock you like, and the related maintenance that comes along with it. If the OP would like to stick with coral and keep trying to get past the issues he's had than there's an endless amount of people on RC that are more than willing to help. That's just not the path for everyone though. Maybe look into some non-reef safe fish and see if anything excited you there. you may be more excited to have predator fish than watching a frag of coral grow. And often times with alot less expense than is required to keep a coral tank going.

04/25/2019, 03:54 AM	#13
kupadupapupa Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 344	I have had the same issues, battling cyano and GHA for 2 years. Eventually I gave up, stopped doing water changes, started using tap water due to not feeling motivated to mix salt and a little over 1 year later the cyano and hair algae is almost gone. Too bad it takes this long but I don't know what could have possibly been causing the outbreak for the past 2 years.