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Unread 07/12/2011, 11:45 AM   #51
organism
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco View Post
This is exactly my point. Maybe we should step off our holier-than-thou platforms and not get so bent out of shape. Again, I don't want to see fish die unnecessarily but I think any attempt to remove something from its native environment and to ship it around the world will result in some die-off. And they're just fish.
No, they're a resource, and the arguments over commercial fishing and the OP's wholesaler are fairly parallel: wasting and abusing resources. Pointing out abuse isn't getting on a high horse, it's demanding better treatment of a natural resource. Personally I don't eat commercial fish nor buy from crappy LFS/wholesalers, but even if I ate commercial fish, it still wouldn't make a valid excuse for destroying resources elsewhere.

Your logic taken further says that an arsonist burning down a forest is ok, because trees were killed in the making of your home.


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Unread 07/12/2011, 02:23 PM   #52
billsreef
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From the standpoint of a fisheries biologist, any type of fishing needs to be done in a sustainable manner. Both from the standpoint of numbers extracted of a given species and fishing methods. Not to mention any waste should be minimized.


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Unread 07/12/2011, 03:27 PM   #53
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Many commerial fisherman at least within the US are coming to realize that maintaining the fisheries is not just good for the environment, but also their livelyhood. When, it comes to dollar figures fishing in a sustainable way means they have a job for themselves as well as possibly their children. The fishing regulations as what can be cought, when and how many is fairly stringent now, and if you are found in violation you get a heavy fine. So talking money, the fisherman has come to understand. I know similar regulations exists in most western/more modern countries. I am not sure there is any meaningful regulation in developing nations.

As for ornimental fish trade. Again, Hawaii and Florida are tightly regulated, as well as many of the Caribian Islands (Grand Cayman's fine is around $6000 US for damaging coral not even going into illegal harvesting). The harvesting problems again lies more with developing nations.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 12:38 PM   #54
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These post are DEEP and very informational .


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Unread 07/13/2011, 10:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamOne1 View Post
I have worked at the LFS for over 15 years and wanted to share an experience I had at the largest fish wholesaler in the Chicagoland area in order to inform people on how fish are shipped. My coworker and I had gone to the wholesaler to pick out stock for the store. This is a warehouse-sized facility and we had finished and were waiting for our stock to be bagged, boxed and billed. As we were waiting the workers started wheeling out all these 30-50 gallon garbage cans into the aisles of holding tanks (2-3 cans per aisle). Then stacks of boxes were wheeled in. The workers opened the boxes and started sorting through them. With great speed they threw the bags of dead fish in the garbage and the live ones in the tanks. Most of the bags contained so little water the fish were swimming on their sides (water is heavy and costs a lot to ship). We were shocked that they would toss powder blue tangs and emperor angels into tanks like they were little beach balls. But the really horrifying part was how many bags of fish were immediately thrown into the garbage. Well over half the fish (enough to stock a second warehouse) were DOA. By the end, the garbage cans were full with dead saltwater fish. This was clearly just part of their routine. We were not supposed to be in there when they got their shipment in and the owner was livid that we saw this. I am still horrified that I am part of the reason this happens.
That sickens me. My mom needs to see that post so that she doesn't say "don't buy online! Buy local!"


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Unread 07/13/2011, 11:07 PM   #56
albano
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Originally Posted by asid61 View Post
That sickens me. My mom needs to see that post so that she doesn't say "don't buy online! Buy local!"
????? not sure how you interpreted that post...IMO...many online places get their fish thru the same importers as LFS use.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 11:45 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organism View Post
Personally I don't eat commercial fish nor buy from crappy LFS/wholesalers, but even if I ate commercial fish, it still wouldn't make a valid excuse for destroying resources elsewhere.

Your logic taken further says that an arsonist burning down a forest is ok, because trees were killed in the making of your home.
So you don't eat any fish or only the one you catch yourself? Not being adversarial just interested in your personal practice. Catching my own fish is prohibitively expensive for me so I choose to buy fish from the fish market or grocery store.

And your ending paragraph is not a valid analogy. One use is constructive, the other is intentionally destructive. I said I don't want to see fish wasted but they are just fish. Some will die. Really, the only way to be completely out of responsibility for any of the fish death is to leave the hobby.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 11:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamf25 View Post
Many commercial fisherman at least within the US are coming to realize that maintaining the fisheries is not just good for the environment, but also their livelihood. When, it comes to dollar figures fishing in a sustainable way means they have a job for themselves as well as possibly their children. The fishing regulations as what can be caught, when and how many is fairly stringent now, and if you are found in violation you get a heavy fine. So talking money, the fisherman has come to understand. I know similar regulations exists in most western/more modern countries. I am not sure there is any meaningful regulation in developing nations.
Here's a secret: it's no longer the Americans who are depleting world fish stocks.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 01:04 PM   #59
organism
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Originally Posted by Paco View Post
So you don't eat any fish or only the one you catch yourself? Not being adversarial just interested in your personal practice. Catching my own fish is prohibitively expensive for me so I choose to buy fish from the fish market or grocery store.
I usually catch all my fish and I know I'm fortunate to do so, but if I buy them at the store it's farmed only. The problem with all commercial fishing is bycatch, it varies from "tons" to "a lot". Farms have their own issues but collateral damage of tons of other living things isn't one of them. Ornamental collecting is the opposite with bycatch in that they don't kill for example 2 parrotfish for every clownfish they catch, so the industries are not comparable.

Quote:
And your ending paragraph is not a valid analogy. One use is constructive, the other is intentionally destructive.
It is a valid analogy, most people just don't know how seafood gets on their plate. You should look up videos of bottom trawlers if you want to see how intentionally destructive commercial fishing is. You really wouldn't believe how many things die from commercial shrimp and fluke/flounder trawling, longlining, and gill nets, comparing it to an arsonist in a forest is actually putting it mildly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco View Post
Here's a secret: it's no longer the Americans who are depleting world fish stocks.
I disagree: the US imports 84% of its seafood, half of it from countries that harvest fish in ways you wouldn't even want to hear about.


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Unread 07/17/2011, 12:58 PM   #60
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My LFS only buys from a supplier that prides itself in using a "short supply chain". Ideally the fish change hands much fewer times. A lot of people dont know that wild caught fish dont have their water changed and arent fed from the time they are caught to the time they get to the wholesaler.


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Unread 07/19/2011, 10:23 AM   #61
KrissiIZme
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[QUOTE=organism;19022476]I usually catch all my fish and I know I'm fortunate to do so, but if I buy them at the store it's farmed only.

Wow farmed only...that is even worse and more harmful on the fish population and your health.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/salmo...-farm-vs-wild/


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Unread 07/19/2011, 12:54 PM   #62
organism
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Originally Posted by KrissiIZme View Post
Wow farmed only...that is even worse and more harmful on the fish population and your health.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/salmo...-farm-vs-wild/
lol, that's like me saying motorcycles save gas, and you posting an article about a 4,000cc jet engine powered mega harley that's leaking oil to prove me wrong.

You're aware there's more than one species of farmed fish right?


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Unread 07/19/2011, 02:36 PM   #63
albano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organism View Post
...and you posting an article about a 4,000cc jet engine powered mega harley ...
Link Please...Google has no info on that Harley!






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Unread 07/24/2011, 06:24 PM   #64
doctorgori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco View Post
What is the difference between an ornamental fish and a food fish?

100% of food fish end up dead -- who is crying for the pollack?

Just trying to be realistic here. Yeah, we shouldn't waste fish but I eat way, way more fish in a year than I am responsible for killing via my participation in the aquarium hobby.
I'm basically saying the same thing in another post...TOUCHE'
...mother nature could give a dang about "intent" ...

So I kinda shrug a lil when the cyber beatings continue for some poor soul who purchased a Morish Idol and kills it, yet 1/2 those same people buy Chilean Sea Bass or drive a SUV or do any number of "politically incorrect/ecologically insensitive things"


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Unread 07/26/2011, 08:35 PM   #65
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In my 20 years in the military, I have travelled (on missions) to a lot of third world countries. These people live day to day. They are barely surviving. To tell them that if you bag some fish and send it out and your family will eat another day, they will do that in a heartbeat. They are not educated nor have the internet. They don't understand global ramifications of their actions. For these people, profit is not the motive. It broke my heart and many of my men broke down at times seeing how these people live. Some even offered their children to us to take back to the US.

Sorry to go off tangent that way guys. I just wanted to give a different perspective. I do agree on most of what you guys are saying about the profit motive and some of us being a little careless.


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Unread 07/27/2011, 08:32 AM   #66
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My little additon, I guess. I was at the still LFS yesterday and asked about a bangaii cardinal. The salesperson was welll aware they are en endangered species. I asked if they were endangered why they carried the wild ones, when tank bred were availible. Her respose was the Goverment of Idonesia just not care. While great that they can be tank bread and therefor saved, I could not in good concious buy the wild version.


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Unread 07/27/2011, 12:53 PM   #67
organism
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Originally Posted by bamf25 View Post
I asked if they were endangered why they carried the wild ones, when tank bred were availible. Her respose was the Goverment of Idonesia just not care.
lol, so did the government of Indonesia force them into buying those instead of tank raised ones? Some people pick the most retarded excuses they can come up with to not have to take personal responsibility for anything, great LFS you've got there...


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Unread 07/27/2011, 03:45 PM   #68
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One issue with wild caught versus aquacultured is that wild caught are often significantly cheaper. Another is that, especially with Bangaii, aquacultured are still not widely available, or plentiful.

Jeff


Text mangled by iPhone spell check...


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Unread 08/03/2011, 03:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by bamf25 View Post
My little addition, I guess. I was at the still LFS yesterday and asked about a Bangaii cardinal. The salesperson was well aware they are en endangered species. I asked if they were endangered why they carried the wild ones, when tank bred were available. Her response was the Government of Indonesia just not care. While great that they can be tank bread and therefor saved, I could not in good conscious buy the wild version.
The USA was one of the dissenting voices when BC was put up for CITES Article II classification. The USA voted no


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Unread 08/11/2011, 12:28 AM   #70
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I raised clownfish for several months, I wasn't very good at it but in the end probably successfully raised about 50 of them from egg to lfs sellable sized.

Some of them are still alive and well among my club members. Others were probably dead within a week (people didn't tell me what happened - i just knew).

So long story short - captive breeding is the way to go. Support the folks who go thru the effort - it's not easy (in my opinion) but I felt truly rewarded in knowing (or really hoping) that possibly 50 wild clownfish were not required to be taken. The clowns are still breeding so when time permits - perhaps more will be raised.


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Unread 01/12/2012, 06:45 PM   #71
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how much cheaper are corals and fish when fish store buy them from wholesalers and is it possible for a hobbiest to buy from them if the facility is near?


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Unread 01/13/2012, 10:49 AM   #72
billsreef
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Originally Posted by jcowles888 View Post
how much cheaper are corals and fish when fish store buy them from wholesalers and is it possible for a hobbiest to buy from them if the facility is near?
How much cheaper all depends on how much of a margin the LFS is trying to make on the livestock. As for hobbyiest buying from a wholesaler...most legit wholesalers will require a business license, sales tax certificate, and some require proof of a store front. Add to that, the requirement for a minimum purchase amount that is typically a lot. The wholesalers do not want to be selling to hobbyist, if they did, their primary customers (the LFS) would stop using them and they would go out of business


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Unread 01/13/2012, 12:40 PM   #73
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Bill is correct- when I bought my shop- I had to take all of the paperwork and fotos- They even called the former owner of the store to be sure. There were some wiseguys that worked for another store that would sneak to the wholsaler for themselves. When they were caught, the wholsaler contacted the state and federal taxing bodies- as well as the dept of agriculture. Lets just say the fines and having- Everything in aquarium related siezed, was much more of a loss than their savings and the fish and coral.

WHo cries for the pollack -great line. When people quite putting values on life- A tang is more valuble than a cod- then maybe there can be a real discussion- but the fact remains- all fish removed from the ocean are considered dead by the ocean. ANd the fact that if only 10% live- it higher than food fish. Concious does not imply dominion-and only makes being hypocritical easier.


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Unread 01/13/2012, 05:50 PM   #74
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first for give my spelling an my . , but i must must say .My best friend (like a brother)is an importer does about 50 to 60 boxes a week fish an coral .An if that iz what is going on where that are geting there fish from is apoling !!!!!! nothing like that comes from his shippers NOTHING that is wrong there sites permit should be revoked. an would love to know who there shipper is .I have helped him deliver an accliimate tens of thousands of fish an never ever do thay come in light on water this is my cell 631394 8187 I can set thing motion to get them another shipper an drop the doa rate to about 10 % or less WHAT THAY ARE DOING IS JUST WRONG


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Unread 01/13/2012, 06:01 PM   #75
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Your logic taken further says that an arsonist burning down a forest is ok, because trees were killed in the making of your home.
That's ridiculous, homes are a necessity, fish are not. Nobody hires arsonists to burn down forests to make room for homes, even still this analogy was not even close to saying what you think it did. Lastly, Paco was on point with his post. In the end, they are fish, not human lives, also pets and food are two different issues. You are being unreasonable about the whole situation, if you were really concerned, you would not have fish as pets, or food, just by buying products to keep the fish alive you are doing harm to the fish's environment, and you are giving more money to corporations who will use some of it to lobby for collection laws to be less harsh. In the end, you are in no position to preach to anybody about the practices used in this hobby, you are part of the problem.


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