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Old 01/16/2018, 12:32 PM   #1
reefgeezer
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Max Vinegar/Kalk Solution Concentration

Forgive me, but I need to know... If I have 550 ml of plain white vinegar (5%) dissolved in a gallon of RODI water, how much kalk could I reasonably expect to be able to dissolve in the solution? Please and Thank You!


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Old 01/16/2018, 01:17 PM   #2
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Forgive me, but I need to know... If I have 550 ml of plain white vinegar (5%) dissolved in a gallon of RODI water, how much kalk could I reasonably expect to be able to dissolve in the solution? Please and Thank You!
That's way too much vinegar, that is a whole lot of carbon dosing.

45ml to a gallon will give you a fully starated mix with 3 teaspoons of Kalk, you will not be able to dissolve any more kalk to a gallon of water.


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Old 01/16/2018, 02:19 PM   #3
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That's way too much vinegar, that is a whole lot of carbon dosing.

45ml to a gallon will give you a fully starated mix with 3 teaspoons of Kalk, you will not be able to dissolve any more kalk to a gallon of water.
Thanks for the reply. I dose vinegar and kalk with one dosing pump. I just need about 7 ml a day of vinegar to do what I need done. I have a dosing pump that has a minimum dosage rate of 50ml/day. I had to dilute the vinegar so 50 ml of solution equals 7 ml of vinegar but I needed to keep bacteria from forming in the storage vessel. I use kalk to do that. I do this now & use 3 tsp per gallon per info I found here on RC.

I thought while I was at it, I might as well use as much kalk as possible to reduce the two part I need to dose. My thought was to mix a gallon of solution containing as much kalk as would dissolve and see what my alk & ca levels do. I'd appreciate any feedback on this plan. Thanks.


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Old 01/16/2018, 02:36 PM   #4
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You should able to dissolve a lot. It should work, but I don't have the chemistry skills to be sure of the maximum concentration that the water would support. The good new is that any extra lime will just sink to the bottom of the container, and will dissolve when some more water is added. I probably would try adding 1/8 cup of Kalk, and then double the amount added until I couldn't get it all to dissolve.

Do you have some numbers for calcium and alkalinity consumption per day? We could work from there.


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Old 01/16/2018, 03:39 PM   #5
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You should able to dissolve a lot. It should work, but I don't have the chemistry skills to be sure of the maximum concentration that the water would support. The good new is that any extra lime will just sink to the bottom of the container, and will dissolve when some more water is added. I probably would try adding 1/8 cup of Kalk, and then double the amount added until I couldn't get it all to dissolve.

Do you have some numbers for calcium and alkalinity consumption per day? We could work from there.
Right now, I'm only seeing about .2 dKh drop per day but that's while dosing 50 ml a day or kalk @ 3 Tsp/Gal. My system is 90-100 gallons total. I've been dosing a little two part to maintain Alk & Ca. I expect demand to change in the near future though as I have a Bunch O' Frags due soon. I'm preparing for that future, thinkin' outside the box, and asking dumb questions. Thanks Jonathan.


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Old 01/16/2018, 05:10 PM   #6
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I'm preparing for that future, thinkin' outside the box, and asking dumb questions.
You're welcome!

It's an interesting question, actually. Not dumb at all. Good luck!


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Old 01/16/2018, 05:23 PM   #7
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Isn't max kalk 2 teaspoons per gallon? Or is it different when vinegar is involved?

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Old 01/16/2018, 06:06 PM   #8
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Vinegar helps dissolve more Kalk, so the 2 tsp limit doesn't apply. Any acid will help dissolve more Kalk, but mineral acids will consume the alkalinity permanently.


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Old 01/17/2018, 07:32 AM   #9
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... Any acid will help dissolve more Kalk, but mineral acids will consume the alkalinity permanently.
So, would the extra kalk still maintain alk & calcium in the same manner as traditional concentrations?


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Old 01/17/2018, 11:57 AM   #10
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Yes, as long as you use an organic acid. The organic acid binds the alkalinity until the organic portion is consumed, then the alkalinity is released:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#7


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Old 01/17/2018, 01:06 PM   #11
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Yes, as long as you use an organic acid. The organic acid binds the alkalinity until the organic portion is consumed, then the alkalinity is released:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#7
Perfect. Thank you so much Jonathan. I think I have enough info now.


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Old 01/17/2018, 02:55 PM   #12
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You're welcome. Good luck!


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Old 01/17/2018, 09:26 PM   #13
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So... I got about 1/4 cup of kalk to dissolve in a solution. Of 500 ml of vinegar and enough RODI water to make a gallon. There is a little precipitation but not much. That's more than double the concentration I was using.


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Old 01/17/2018, 09:28 PM   #14
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Try mixing the kalk and vinegar together and then add to R/O
Cheers! Mark


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Old 01/18/2018, 07:16 AM   #15
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Try mixing the kalk and vinegar together and then add to R/O
Cheers! Mark
I saw that recommendation before, but I thought I remembered possibly making vinegar & baking soda bombs/rockets back in the day. I wasn't sure how the reaction would go.


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Old 01/18/2018, 07:45 AM   #16
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Here is an article:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/b...alkwasser.html


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Old 01/18/2018, 09:59 AM   #17
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Thanks Daddio. That's great info and I understand most of it... said the man that doesn't know what he doesn't know!

So, if I used a gallon of water, the same ratio would that let me use roughly 56ml of vinegar and 5.5 tsp of kalk.

The goal of my outside the box experiment is to see how much kalk I can dissolve in a useable solution of roughly 500 ml of vinegar and enough water to make a gallon. My method of mixing the vinegar and water, then kalk resulted in a saturation level of about 11 tsp. per gallon (a little less than 1/4 cup). Do you think dissolving the kalk in vinegar and then adding water enable any more to be dissolved in the solution?

I don't think my process is really affected by the CO2 in the system. 50 ml of the Kalk/Vinegar Solution is divided into 24 doses throughout the day. So only 2ml is dosed at any time.


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Old 01/18/2018, 01:04 PM   #18
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Thanks Daddio. That's great info and I understand most of it... said the man that doesn't know what he doesn't know!

So, if I used a gallon of water, the same ratio would that let me use roughly 56ml of vinegar and 5.5 tsp of kalk.

The goal of my outside the box experiment is to see how much kalk I can dissolve in a useable solution of roughly 500 ml of vinegar and enough water to make a gallon. My method of mixing the vinegar and water, then kalk resulted in a saturation level of about 11 tsp. per gallon (a little less than 1/4 cup). Do you think dissolving the kalk in vinegar and then adding water enable any more to be dissolved in the solution?

I don't think my process is really affected by the CO2 in the system. 50 ml of the Kalk/Vinegar Solution is divided into 24 doses throughout the day. So only 2ml is dosed at any time.
I think you gotta try it and see what happens. A word of caution, from my reading the kalk may get hot when mixed with very little liquid.


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Old 01/18/2018, 04:38 PM   #19
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The part about precipitation is a bit off. Carbonate ions won't necessarily precipitate as calcium carbonate. That might or might not happen, but generally, it takes a lot of Kalk to start a precipitation event. Also, vinegar probably isn't producing nitrogen gas, and NO2 is nitrite. Nitrogen gas is N2. I'm not sure what he means by "require the addition of different amounts of CO2" when he's discussing precipitation, but the part about Kalk dissolving with "some but not enough CO2" in a freshwater solution is a bit off. Kalk will combine with whatever carbon dioxide is in the water and precipitate down to the limit of calcium carbonate solubility, and after that, leftover Kalk just settles to the bottom. The part about vinegar adding the "right amount of CO2" is a bit off, as well. A plain Kalk supplement is fine for most setups. I ran several for years without issues. Vinegar will form acetate, which has some advantages for solubility.

There are some other issues, but using vinegar with Kalk is fine.


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Old 01/27/2018, 10:59 AM   #20
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My solution of 500 ml vinegar, most 1/4 cup of kalk, and aabout 3300 ml of RODI sat for a couple of weeks to see what would happen. It did grow some bacteria. The water stayed clear bit clumps of slimy gunk formed. Back to the drawing board. Thanks everyone for your inputs.


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Old 01/27/2018, 06:26 PM   #21
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Did you check the pH of the solution?


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Old 01/27/2018, 07:21 PM   #22
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I didn't. I figured it was as high as it was going to get with that much kalk in it.


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Old 01/27/2018, 07:56 PM   #23
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I should have thought about the risk that the pH would drop low enough to allow bacterial activity.


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Old 01/28/2018, 11:38 AM   #24
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You did & mentioned it earlier in this thread. I made a bad assumption. Also, I acquired a dosing pump that would dose snall quantities while the experiment was in process. The diluted vinegar in no longer required.


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