Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it! - Page 17

Dan_P · 05/14/2018, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spar

I just read through this entire thread but didn't see what ml/gallon ratio of vinegar that Randy is ultimately recommending as the high-end or goal.

I am currently using that chart that Randy has said is both low and too slow. I am currently dosing .20ml/g/day.

Any advice? I am only dosing vinegar, no vodka or glucose/etc.

I believe around page 2 he states he was up to 2 mL/gal

Spar · 05/14/2018, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

I believe around page 2 he states he was up to 2 mL/gal

That is where he is saying things started to look ugly though. I wasn't sure what was the ml/g he backed up to that seemed to work for him.

I have seen the .5ml/g/day referred to, like TMZ said. I will aim for that to start and see how things look.

bertoni · 05/14/2018, 10:28 PM

I think the number is different for each tank. Some tanks seem to have bacterial blooms with fairly low doses, for example.

tmz · 05/15/2018, 09:32 AM

I agree the maintenance dose for a specific tank can vary significantly from others given a variety in surface areas ,nutrient inputs /exports and other variables. Amping up to a maintenance dose slowly is recommended . Generally I'd start at .1 ml per gallon and move up to .3 over several weeks and keep it at that level for a month or so before moving up any more if at all , while watching for bacterial blooms and dropping back if necessary.

BTW:This is from Randy's post #31 fyi:

OK, I've slowly backed all the way down to about 44 ml per day, spread over the daylight hours. Things look much better. I did not realize how cloudy the water had gotten, presumably with suspended bacteria.

That's 44ml for 120 gallons or .366ml per gallon .

rsucre · 05/15/2018, 10:04 AM

I'm currently dosing approx. 25ml of vinegar daily to my 20 gallon tank. Distributed in 5 x 5ml doses.
Which is a lot larger than the .3ml/gal dose and things seem to be pretty stable. No bacterial bloom, no cloudy water, etc.

tmz · 05/15/2018, 12:01 PM

Sounds high but each tank differs somewhat. What is the PO4 and NO3 btw?Is iron in range? Any other supplements?

rsucre · 05/15/2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmz

Sounds high but each tank differs somewhat. What is the PO4 and NO3 btw?Is iron in range? Any other supplements?

Hi tmz, I have never tested for Iron. Should I? How frequently?
NO3 = 1ppm, PO4 = 0.12ppm. PO4 used to be 0.06 and lower, but then I had the dinos on the sandbed and read about ULNS as a possible cause due to lack of algae and other natural dinos competitors. So I decided to feed a little more to raise nutrients a little. Also introduced copepods. So now I'm trying to keep PO4 at 0.12ppm or a little lower. And see how it goes.

hkgar · 05/15/2018, 01:05 PM

I am dosing 67 ml/day of a 70/30 vinegar/vodka mix to a 145 gallon system. I think that works out to about 1.43ml/day/gallon.

Last test NO3 1 PO4 .08

I feed a lot and also use an ATS.

rsucre · 05/15/2018, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

I am dosing 67 ml/day of a 70/30 vinegar/vodka mix to a 145 gallon system. I think that works out to about 1.43ml/day/gallon.

Last test NO3 1 PO4 .08

I feed a lot and also use an ATS.

That would be a larger dose than mine, taking into account that mine is vinegar only and yours has some vodka in it, which is (if I recall correctly) 8 times stronger. My point is that larger doses are viable, given that you increase them gradually and monitor how your tank reacts.

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmz

Sounds high but each tank differs somewhat. What is the PO4 and NO3 btw?Is iron in range? Any other supplements?

This is only week 7 or 8 in the 25 gallon column of dosing chart. The rest of the columns are incorrectly scaled. So aquarists with large tanks are potentially substantially under-dosing.

tmz · 05/19/2018, 02:19 PM

No. I don't think I'm underdosing at all whatever chart you are referring to.

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmz

No. I don't think I'm underdosing at all whatever chart you are referring to.

The “chart” refers to the one everyone is using, first published years ago, reprinted many times in this forum. If correctly scaled, recommended dosing schedules in this chart would be greater for larger systems. That’s what I meant. Scary large volumes of vinegar are not really “off the chart” :-)

I’ve read about your success. I agree that you are dosing what you needed to dose to get your desired outcome. I wish that I knew more details about your success. Not only are all aquara different, they are complex.

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

A number of people report a similar problem with higher dKH levels. Dropping the level in your tank to 7.8-8 dKH should be fine. I don't think anyone is sure about exactly why corals can have problems at the higher dKH levels

Somethiing you stated last December in this long thread. I was wondering what you meant: higher dKH while dosing or just highr dKH?

bertoni · 05/19/2018, 05:28 PM

Well, that's a good question. The more popular guess, and I do mean "guess", is that higher alkalinity and very low dissolved nutrient levels might lead to coral problems. There's a lot of hedging there because I don't know of any reasonable theory as to what, if anything, might be happening. It's generally easy to lower the dKH level of a tank, though, and inexpensive, and it seems to have helped for some people, in a repeatable way, so trying it generally seems reasonable.

rsucre · 05/19/2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

Somethiing you stated last December in this long thread. I was wondering what you meant: higher dKH while dosing or just highr dKH?

The question if not for me, but, I have experienced problems with KH over 9 dKH when I had virtually zero PO4 and NO3. I found many references stating that if you have a ULNS tank, you must lower your KH. Actually, Red Sea's Reef Care Program Foundation Testing and Supplementing User Manual states that for Ultra Low Nutrient System (ULNS) the optimal level of KH is 7.0 dKH. (33 ppt salinity, 410 mg/l Ca, 1220 mg/l Mg).

I now try to keep those levels, except SG 33 ppt, which seems low to me, I'm currently trying to lower it from 35 to 34.

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsucre

The question if not for me, but, I have experienced problems with KH over 9 dKH when I had virtually zero PO4 and NO3. I found many references stating that if you have a ULNS tank, you must lower your KH. Actually, Red Sea's Reef Care Program Foundation Testing and Supplementing User Manual states that for Ultra Low Nutrient System (ULNS) the optimal level of KH is 7.0 dKH. (33 ppt salinity, 410 mg/l Ca, 1220 mg/l Mg).

I now try to keep those levels, except SG 33 ppt, which seems low to me, I'm currently trying to lower it from 35 to 34.

Were you dosing acetic acid at the time?

bertoni · 05/19/2018, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

This is only week 7 or 8 in the 25 gallon column of dosing chart. The rest of the columns are incorrectly scaled. So aquarists with large tanks are potentially substantially under-dosing.

I finally got my lazy body in gear and posted a new chart.

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

Well, that's a good question. The more popular guess, and I do mean "guess", is that higher alkalinity and very low dissolved nutrient levels might lead to coral problems. There's a lot of hedging there because I don't know of any reasonable theory as to what, if anything, might be happening. It's generally easy to lower the dKH level of a tank, though, and inexpensive, and it seems to have helped for some people, in a repeatable way, so trying it generally seems reasonable.

To clarify...So carbon dosing AND high dKH is not necessarily the issue, correct? It is more general, like ULN AND high dKH?

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

I finally got my lazy body in gear and posted a new chart.

Good for you! Given the half life of the original chart, your response time was admirable.

Daddi0 · 05/19/2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

To clarify...So carbon dosing AND high dKH is not necessarily the issue, correct? It is more general, like ULN AND high dKH?

As I remember from my research (and I could be wrong) When you have a high DKH and low nutrients. The coral's soft tissue growth cannot keep up with the increased skeletal growth and you get exposed tips.
I dose 1ml vinegar per gallon of tank water per day and feed daily with no issues. NO gha or cyano, and some visible bacterial colonies (both pink and white)
Cheers! Mark
Update: My DKH is just under 11

Dan_P · 05/19/2018, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddi0

As I remember from my research (and I could be wrong) When you have a high DKH and low nutrients. The coral's soft tissue growth cannot keep up with the increased skeletal growth and you get exposed tips.

Thanks!

bertoni · 05/19/2018, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddi0

As I remember from my research (and I could be wrong) When you have a high DKH and low nutrients. The coral's soft tissue growth cannot keep up with the increased skeletal growth and you get exposed tips.

People have made that hypothesis, but I haven't seen any reason to see how that can work. The soft tissue creates the skeleton, so it has to be there for the coral to grow.

rsucre · 05/19/2018, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

Were you dosing acetic acid at the time?

Yes. White vinegar.

rsucre · 05/19/2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_P

To clarify...So carbon dosing AND high dKH is not necessarily the issue, correct? It is more general, like ULN AND high dKH?

I agree. I think it has more to do with ULNS.

tmz · 05/20/2018, 09:37 AM

The “chart” refers to the one everyone is using, first published years ago, reprinted many times in this forum. If correctly scaled, recommended dosing schedules in this chart would be greater for larger systems. That’s what I meant. Scary large volumes of vinegar are not really “off the chart” :-)

OK

The chart was introduced about 9 years ago when carbon dosing began to be more popular. Folks were experiencing bacterial blooms,O2 deprivation and other negatives from rapid and seemingly excessive start up dosing in search of rapid nitrate reduction. The chart provides a very slow safe guide for amping up, but did not provide a cap or guide for maintenance dosing which would vary from tank to tank. The approach then was basically to keep amping up slowly until a rapid decline in nitrate and/or a bacterial bloom occurred and then to back off by half for maintenance. Randy and others wondered how high you could actually go ; hence he authored this thread and his experiment noting 2 ml per gallon led to serious problems in his tank and recovery when he backed off to the .5ml range. I wanted to know what others were experiencing ,so I started a thread on another forum . From contributions to that thread , reading a hundred or more anecdotal accounts over the years , Randy's work and about 10 years of dosing I've settled on recommending .3 to .6 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar or equivalent amount of including 40% ethanol vodka(80 proof) per gallon as a reasonable normative max cap range with tweaks up or down based on observations of a particular tank .

In my case 36ml of 80 proof vodka; equivalent to 288ml of vodka plus 60 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar dosed daily to the 700 gallon system for many years maintains low nitrate and PO4 without toublesome conglomerations of bacterial mass or blooms and a minimal .15 or so decline in pH which is offset by kalk dosing and a CO2 scrubber.

05/14/2018, 10:28 PM	#403
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I think the number is different for each tank. Some tanks seem to have bacterial blooms with fairly low doses, for example. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/15/2018, 09:32 AM	#404
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	I agree the maintenance dose for a specific tank can vary significantly from others given a variety in surface areas ,nutrient inputs /exports and other variables. Amping up to a maintenance dose slowly is recommended . Generally I'd start at .1 ml per gallon and move up to .3 over several weeks and keep it at that level for a month or so before moving up any more if at all , while watching for bacterial blooms and dropping back if necessary. BTW:This is from Randy's post #31 fyi: OK, I've slowly backed all the way down to about 44 ml per day, spread over the daylight hours. Things look much better. I did not realize how cloudy the water had gotten, presumably with suspended bacteria. That's 44ml for 120 gallons or .366ml per gallon . __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 05/15/2018 at 09:42 AM.

05/15/2018, 12:01 PM	#406
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Sounds high but each tank differs somewhat. What is the PO4 and NO3 btw?Is iron in range? Any other supplements? __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

05/15/2018, 01:05 PM	#408
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	I am dosing 67 ml/day of a 70/30 vinegar/vodka mix to a 145 gallon system. I think that works out to about 1.43ml/day/gallon. Last test NO3 1 PO4 .08 I feed a lot and also use an ATS. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

05/19/2018, 02:19 PM	#411
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	No. I don't think I'm underdosing at all whatever chart you are referring to. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

05/15/2018, 10:04 AM	#405
rsucre Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 169	I'm currently dosing approx. 25ml of vinegar daily to my 20 gallon tank. Distributed in 5 x 5ml doses. Which is a lot larger than the .3ml/gal dose and things seem to be pretty stable. No bacterial bloom, no cloudy water, etc.

05/19/2018, 05:28 PM	#414
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, that's a good question. The more popular guess, and I do mean "guess", is that higher alkalinity and very low dissolved nutrient levels might lead to coral problems. There's a lot of hedging there because I don't know of any reasonable theory as to what, if anything, might be happening. It's generally easy to lower the dKH level of a tank, though, and inexpensive, and it seems to have helped for some people, in a repeatable way, so trying it generally seems reasonable. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/20/2018, 09:37 AM	#425
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	The “chart” refers to the one everyone is using, first published years ago, reprinted many times in this forum. If correctly scaled, recommended dosing schedules in this chart would be greater for larger systems. That’s what I meant. Scary large volumes of vinegar are not really “off the chart” :-) OK The chart was introduced about 9 years ago when carbon dosing began to be more popular. Folks were experiencing bacterial blooms,O2 deprivation and other negatives from rapid and seemingly excessive start up dosing in search of rapid nitrate reduction. The chart provides a very slow safe guide for amping up, but did not provide a cap or guide for maintenance dosing which would vary from tank to tank. The approach then was basically to keep amping up slowly until a rapid decline in nitrate and/or a bacterial bloom occurred and then to back off by half for maintenance. Randy and others wondered how high you could actually go ; hence he authored this thread and his experiment noting 2 ml per gallon led to serious problems in his tank and recovery when he backed off to the .5ml range. I wanted to know what others were experiencing ,so I started a thread on another forum . From contributions to that thread , reading a hundred or more anecdotal accounts over the years , Randy's work and about 10 years of dosing I've settled on recommending .3 to .6 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar or equivalent amount of including 40% ethanol vodka(80 proof) per gallon as a reasonable normative max cap range with tweaks up or down based on observations of a particular tank . In my case 36ml of 80 proof vodka; equivalent to 288ml of vodka plus 60 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar dosed daily to the 700 gallon system for many years maintains low nitrate and PO4 without toublesome conglomerations of bacterial mass or blooms and a minimal .15 or so decline in pH which is offset by kalk dosing and a CO2 scrubber. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.