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Unread 12/05/2011, 04:42 PM   #51
CalmSeasQuest
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It's great to see Advanced Aquarist covering our work with Lasers.

In addition to simply "making things quickly go away" I think lasers can/will be helpful in other marine endeavours. I'm currently working on a few videos focusing on,

Preventing coral battles and potentially limiting allelopathy - The laser is perfectly suited for maintaining margins or a "DMZ" between potentially battling corals. As many of us (guilty as charged) end up with many SPS in tight quarters, a laser can be used to help prune back infringing corals with surgical accuracy without having to remove the coral, or risk damage through traditional pruning methods. I'll be using some fast growing Monties and Acros for these tests.

Prepping areas for regrowth - With corals subject to receding tissue, the exposed skeletons quickly become covered in various types of algae (no doubt due to the nutrients from the decaying coral.) I've tested using the laser to "scrub" those areas, hopefully creating a host surface that will aid in the coral regrowth. At first glance, it works very well, and the targeted surfaces are squeaky clean. Its especially effective at cleaning deeply grooved skeletons such as Acanthastrea. If successful, I can see potential benefit in the use on high value chalice corals. Time will tell if it provides any benefit to the coral in terms of speeding recovery.

Prepping areas prior to affixing a frag or coral - It's very simply to use the laser to prep an area before affixing a frag (either on a plug or directly.) In just seconds, and areas can be lased removing any potential pests or nuisance algae, and at least in theory - providing a better place for the coral to adhere to and encrust.

I'm also curious to see if laser "etching" of frag plugs results in any difference in coral growth or rates of encrusting. There are many others areas to explore including laser fragging of soft corals and whether the cauterization effect is beneficial,

Time will tell if any of these provide real benefit, or are just seemingly good ideas that don't work...And of course, I've also got the prerequisite Xenia, GSP, Aiptasia and Majano videos under development for those focusing solely on pest vaporization.


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Unread 12/06/2011, 02:20 PM   #52
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I completed a brief series of videos showing the eradication of Aiptasia, GSP and Xenia along with the cutting of a "DMZ" between battling Montipora.

I'll post them as soon as the uploads are processed by YouTube.


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Unread 12/06/2011, 04:51 PM   #53
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Here are a few short videos (HD) showing how different corals respond to the laser. The Montipora were lasered through glass - the rest through acrylic.










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Unread 12/06/2011, 05:03 PM   #54
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Awesome. Great post!


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Unread 12/07/2011, 09:41 AM   #55
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Has anyone gone deeper than 12" in the tank, and if so what laser was used? Due to cube layout most of mine are 18" from glass.


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Unread 12/07/2011, 09:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest View Post
I completed a brief series of videos showing the eradication of Aiptasia, GSP and Xenia along with the cutting of a "DMZ" between battling Montipora.

I'll post them as soon as the uploads are processed by YouTube.
If you would, please post back some results after a few days or weeks on the GSP, xenia, and monti.

I lased a xenia patch with similar looking results. A couple days later it needed a second treatment, I had to lase it to a pile of gelatinous goo to kill it. I am still waiting to see if the stalk base will grow a new head.


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Unread 12/07/2011, 11:37 AM   #57
CalmSeasQuest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CreatiVe2 View Post
Awesome. Great post!
Thanks - Lot's more to do, but it's a start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeTodd View Post
Has anyone gone deeper than 12" in the tank, and if so what laser was used? Due to cube layout most of mine are 18" from glass.
I've effectively lased target about 20" from the tank exterior and noticed no power falloff. That said, I'm using an 1800mW laser. Results will likely vary with lower power units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpark22000 View Post
If you would, please post back some results after a few days or weeks on the GSP, xenia, and monti.

I lased a xenia patch with similar looking results. A couple days later it needed a second treatment, I had to lase it to a pile of gelatinous goo to kill it. I am still waiting to see if the stalk base will grow a new head.
I'm following a number of tests, including Xenia. I agree it seems to be among the most laser-resistant and I suspect it might be associated with it's lighter color and greater mass. I've found that in smaller patches, I'm able to completely destroy it in a single session, with larger groupings requiring multiple laser sessions.

The Monti test was perfect...


It vaporized all the tissue in the lased area without hurting any of the surrounding polyps or tissue. All that remains is the bleached with skeleton.

Here are a few thoughts I've formulated since starting these tests...
  • More is Better - Although expensive and requiring the maximum safety precautions, I think using lasers with the highest outputs are a plus. This is also important as it appears that many lasers being sold often fail to meet the advertised output. Better retailers will also provide (for a fee) a "power certificate" detailing the actual performance of the laser and diode being purchased.
  • Cooling effect of water requires higher power output - Because were using laser to superheat and destroy pest with the aquarium, were subject to the cooling effect of the surrounding, moving water.
  • Planula - One of the primary pest being targeted is Aiptasia. When attacked, it can release free-swimming larva called Planula. If not destroyed, these can go on to create many hundreds (if not thousands) of new pests. In theory at least, we want to generate the maximum heat possible, in the shortest time possible to destroy any Planula released.
  • Transparency and colors resistant to laser - Some of the pests being tested seem more resistant to destruction by laser. These include Xenia, a much lighter (almost white colored) soft coral that is very fleshy and seems to recover from even extended lase sessions.
  • Use in destroying blue/green algaes - Many algaes also seem resistant to laser destruction. While the sizzling and popping sounds are easily heard during lasering - they seemingly are able to regrow.
While 1800mw 445nm is proving to be extremely effective, I'm currently researching the use of a different spectrum laser that might provide even better results over the 445. More to follow...


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

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Unread 12/07/2011, 08:25 PM   #58
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Very interesting


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Unread 12/08/2011, 09:02 AM   #59
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Does anyone else find it amazing that due to our love of saltwater fish, we have now learned advanced plumbing, introductory electrical, acrylic fabrication, advanced biology, and now lasers.


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Unread 12/08/2011, 09:25 AM   #60
CalmSeasQuest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeTodd View Post
Does anyone else find it amazing that due to our love of saltwater fish, we have now learned advanced plumbing, introductory electrical, acrylic fabrication, advanced biology, and now lasers.
Not to mention chemistry, mechanical engineering, physics including fluid dynamics, HVAC...

We've come a long way from that fresh water tank that used to sit on our bedroom dresser


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change
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Unread 12/08/2011, 10:17 AM   #61
BluScrnOdeth
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and no comment on what i suggested would make this completely safe.....


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Unread 12/08/2011, 11:13 AM   #62
CalmSeasQuest
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Originally Posted by BluScrnOdeth View Post
and no comment on what i suggested would make this completely safe.....
Darin,

Thanks for your input. Although I'm not sure I completely understand your post, it does not appear to address exposure to the beam endpoint.

I think the important take away here is I don't beleive it's possible to make this process "completely safe" with any single device. It requires a series of safety practices, most of which are human-elements as opposed to equipment.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change
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Unread 12/08/2011, 11:22 AM   #63
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there is no exposure to the beams endpoint by you, the tube would be wide enough to capture andy reflective light. The cross hair (draw an X and put a circle in the center, earase the inside of the circle) thats the endoint where the laser would shoot through. Get that pont really close to your target, the close, the less of a change of stray rays.


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Unread 12/08/2011, 11:56 AM   #64
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I guess you are assuming a water proof laser. The other problem is that most of the laser look like the focus ring is near the front. I think that maybe the biggest obstacle to over come for safety. Short of soldering something to the focus ring I have not thought of any good ideas.


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Unread 12/08/2011, 12:03 PM   #65
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Not really, i was thinking you would have a long tube, which is why you would have a light for inside the tube, this way you can keep the light and the LCD display out of the water. It makes it more cluncky than just pointing a laser into water while getting a tan, but, if safety is import then this would be a good solution, but not easy. I dont expect anyone to use/make this, but it would completely shelter you from the rays except for any that shoot out at about 180 degrees.


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Unread 12/08/2011, 01:58 PM   #66
CalmSeasQuest
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Quote:
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I guess you are assuming a water proof laser. The other problem is that most of the laser look like the focus ring is near the front. I think that maybe the biggest obstacle to over come for safety. Short of soldering something to the focus ring I have not thought of any good ideas.
A waterproof host is an option, there are some out there, but I'm with you, I'd be also be leery of the focus ring. I'm assuming they are fixed focus and I'm not sure how effective they would be for this purpose.

I've been working on an idea being initially discussed and being furthered by CJ. Creating a "conduit" that when lasing from above the tank, would shield the beam and all endpoint viewing angles, except those of the user.

I'm using Mylar sheeting, rolled into cone shape that will burn through when lasered directly in air, is seemingly cooled enough by the water to prevent burning (at least in my testing so far with 1800mW of 445nm.) In addition, any laser striking the Mylar in actual use would be glancing, likely unfocused and would largely be reflected thereby imparting much less energy.



Wrap the end of the laser in the Mylar on an angle so a cone shape is produced. This provides a larger area to shield the beam endpoint and minimized the chance of the beam striking the walls of the cone.



A bit of tape secures the cone and affixes it to the laser (the taped section does not get wet.)



I cut out a section of the end of the cone allowing easy viewing (by the user) of the beam endpoint while shielding all other angles. This cut-out also allows air to escape making it more stable and easier to stay "on-target".



It's still too early to say if this will be a viable option. I do note that while it works, I don't get as "clean" and endpoint when shooting through the surface vs. shooting through the tank walls. This is likely due to reflections from the surface of the water.

It's a bit clunky, but does appear to provide protection benefits in a simple and inexpensive manner including,
  • Protection from livestock seeing or potentially crossing the beam
  • Protection from viewing the beam endpoint from most angles
  • Elimination of most reflection risks

Time and more testing will tell...


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change
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Unread 12/08/2011, 02:24 PM   #67
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In trying to determine the best (and safest) methods for the use of lasers, I'm not sure 445nm is the best wavelength for this application. It looks like 405nm has a couple of significant benefits namely the ability to focus to a much finer endpoint (445nm endpoint is actually a line rather than a dot.) This further concentrates the cutting/burning power while requiring much less power output.

It appears that a 405nm running at 900mW would be as effective as a 445nm at 1800mW. This would be safer and more cost effective.

I'm working on obtaining a 405nm build now - testing to follow...


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change
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Unread 12/12/2011, 09:01 AM   #68
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For anyone questioning the potential damage a 1000mW laser can do - Here's a story about a laser hobbyist inadvertently struck in the eye by a 1 watt 445 nm, blue laser (less powerful than what many are using in aquaria.) Even though the laser struck his eye for only about a second (as it rolled off a table), it resulted in burns to his retina requiring surgery (at the time time this was written, the outcome of surgery was still pending.)

To give you a sense of the damage to his eye - Here's an image of a healthy retina...



Here's the image of the retina damaged by the laser...



Had he been wearing appropriate eye protection, no damage would have resulted.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

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Unread 12/12/2011, 09:21 AM   #69
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That's scary!

CJ


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Unread 12/12/2011, 10:09 AM   #70
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CalmSeaQuest, you know a lot more than me, but I don't know the glasses would have protected him. Glasses are safe for looking at the spot created on a non reflective surface. I am not sure they would block a full on laser hit. They might have helped, but I think there would still be damage. I am only trying to clarify as I don't want people to think that glasses are the whole answer.


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Unread 12/12/2011, 11:24 AM   #71
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Really makes one wonder about the wisdom of playing with lasers, when there are other safer methods available.


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Unread 12/12/2011, 11:33 AM   #72
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Really makes one wonder about the wisdom of playing with lasers, when there are other safer methods available.
Randy had the same point earlier in this thread. In an instant an individual's life was permanently altered.

I understand that life is not risk-free, but there are risks worth taking and others, not so much.

I won't be using any lasers in my tank. I'm not afraid of them, but for me the risk/reward ratio just isn't right.


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Unread 12/12/2011, 01:37 PM   #73
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Topic suggestion to add to the best pratice sheet;
"What to do if an accident occurs"
subtopic; research local treatment before operating laser.

I was unable to find a complete nationwide listing for the U.S., but a quick google search provided me the results for my local area.


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Unread 12/12/2011, 05:54 PM   #74
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Maybe I've missed the answer in all the laser threads Ive read, but what are these powerful lasers used for (outside of aquaria ), and why are they so easy to acquire?


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Unread 12/12/2011, 07:01 PM   #75
CalmSeasQuest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFishMan65 View Post
CalmSeaQuest, you know a lot more than me, but I don't know the glasses would have protected him. Glasses are safe for looking at the spot created on a non reflective surface. I am not sure they would block a full on laser hit. They might have helped, but I think there would still be damage. I am only trying to clarify as I don't want people to think that glasses are the whole answer.
I agree that laser safety requires more than just safety glasses. In this case, the user failed to secure a live laser, allowing it to fall off a table resulting in the eye strike.

As for my comment that glasses would have protected the user in this case - It's based on the following,

Although all safety glasses warn against direct viewing, a good quality pair of safety glasses such as pair of Eagle Pair 190-540nm are rated OD 4+ (reduce the intensity of 190-540nm laser light by a factor of 10,000 or more) The 1watt 445nm laser output would have been reduced to no more than .1mW.

Here's test of a set of Eagle Pair glasses vs a 2000mW 445nm laser (DOUBLE the power of the laser that inflicted the eye injury) demonstrating that the Eagle Pair lenses reduced the laser to less than .1mW (the laser power meter actually reads zero) and would have protected the user from any eye damage from a brief exposure. This would NOT work for an extended period of time as eventually the glasses would heat and potentially melt.

That said, obviously no one should EVER allow a laser beam to strike their eye, regardless of any eye protection.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change
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