Another ship stuck trying to prove lies...

[PIPSTER]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/20/gl...rctic-sea-ice/



Reality can be hard and cold sometimes.

[SeaCucumberFan]

Irony man

[jayball]

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/20/gl...rctic-sea-ice/



Reality can be hard and cold sometimes.

You are definitely right, there is still ice. I always get my scientific analysis from the daily caller, a well-respected publication.

"Move along people, nothing to see here."

[PIPSTER]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/535358a.html

[sde1500]

I'm not going to get into the debate, but can't really deny that is incredibly ironic.

[Alexraptor]

June here in Sweden has been the coldest I can remember.

Global Warming/Climate change is a gross oversimplification of what is actually going on in the world IMHO.

[ThRoewer]

That a ship gets stuck in ice does only proof that the captain didn't do his homework and studied the weather forecast well.
Climate change is a gradual shift of the average temperatures. There will still be cold winters somewhere, but that doesn't mean the average isn't slowly going up.

The global glaciers are shrinking away quickly and the ocean levels are rising - that's a fact you can check with your own eyes.

I suggest to read some impartial studies instead of reading pseudo scientific studies and listening to political propaganda outlets that are all bought and paid for by the people who don't want to loose their source of income: oil and gas.

And even if the data are not 100% conclusive, it's better to err on the side of caution than create a situation you won't be able to rectify once you have the proof.
We only have this one planet and if we screw it up we have nowhere else to go.

[droth335]

^ well said.

[PIPSTER]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

That a ship gets stuck in ice does only proof that the captain didn't do his homework and studied the weather forecast well.

Many resources could have been used probably before this voyage even started that would have shown the way is always blocked, always has been, always will be. Satellite images would have been a common sense start.


The rest of what you have to say is as much a denial of reality as that "captain" and whoever else was on that ship:

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Climate change is a gradual shift of the average temperatures. There will still be cold winters somewhere, but that doesn't mean the average isn't slowly going up.

The global glaciers are shrinking away quickly and the ocean levels are rising - that's a fact you can check with your own eyes.
http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/...record-maximum

I suggest to read some impartial studies instead of reading pseudo scientific studies and listening to political propaganda outlets that are all bought and paid for by the people who don't want to loose their source of income: oil and gas.

And even if the data are not 100% conclusive, it's better to err on the side of caution than create a situation you won't be able to rectify once you have the proof.
We only have this one planet and if we screw it up we have nowhere else to go.

There's the NASA link about the Antarctic, and this silly boat story is near the other polar area of the world. It's not localized, the entire "Northeast Passage" is iced in...in the summer. This isn't the first time this has happened.

Amazing how many people are delusional and readily accept such lies.

[SeaCucumberFan]

You dont believe in global warming and climate change?

[jayball]

There is also no measurable difference in co2 saturation and average temp of the ocean either right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by SeaCucumberFan

You dont believe in global warming and climate change?

Everyone does to a certain degree but no one believes that this is a result of the earth since the industrial revolution began... unless your trying to sell others "carbon credits"

I mean I can guarantee you and everyone in your family is still driving a car and adding to the local landfill each week

[SeaCucumberFan]

It was cold here (at the foot of mount merapi) 10 years ago, but now it's so hot... so hot that it made a famous restaurant go out of bussiness

[ThRoewer]

Well, I don't have kids so I don't really care. I also trust in nature's resilience to recover after the crash - it did survive greater catastrophes in the past and something always survives for evolution to start over. Maybe next time evolution manages to come up with a truly intelligent lifeform - it looks like it came up empty so far ...

Mankind is going to go the way of the dodo with this kind of ignorance and self-delusion. It seems cutting school funding and constant indoctrination has worked well. Idiocracy here we come!

I'm not the delusional here. I don't need studies or pre-digested opinion pieces from either side to realize that the way we currently burn through the planet's resources will lead to no good end.

Simple facts and logic (and the laws of thermodynamic) will get you there: there are simply too many of us who all want to live the good life! That's never going to happen, not with socialism, capitalism or any other "ism".
The planet is a closed system and it's currently heavily overstocked.

If you don't believe there is anything wrong with our current way than ditch the water changes and add more fish to your tank - it will all be fine. Nitrates, Phosphates and all the other supposedly bad things are just inventions of clever businessmen to make you buy their products... if it gets too full, just add some oil

Cutting carbon emissions will do little to get sustainable. Nuclear is in a way the most environmentally friendly energy - if there wasn't that pesky radioactive waste to get rid off. Water energy is as disruptive to nature as coal or gas, and wind and wave power generation will also prove to have some negative sides to the environment - there is simply no way to beat entropy.

Electric cars are just a way to appease yourself as the energy and resource equations still come up negative. The same is also still true for solar cells.

The only way would be to live a simpler life: ditch the car and use the bicycle or walk - it's healthier as well. Use daylight instead of lamps (a special idiocy around here in CA were there is plenty of free light available).

But you know what? I'm too lazy to walk and like my comfort and having a lot of energy guzzling reef tanks. There you have it!

Be honest and say you don't care and don't want to make sacrifices (nobody else does, so why you?), but don't hide behind made up studies and self comforting delusions as excuses.
Earth and mankind as we know them are doomed - so let's go on with the party and have fun as long as it lasts...

[cougareyes]

The foundation of global warming belief is rising co2 levels. Scientific fact that co2 chases temp not the other way around as the green gang preach. Now 3 government labs have been shut done for falsifying records concerning climate change, why lie? Check the Vostok ice core sample study where there has been higher c02 many times in history than today, many times before the industrial revolution. Alternative energy companies going bankrupt with our tax dollars, carbon taxes, hypocrisy. One of the famous big mouth spokes person used electrical energy in one month in one of his houses equal to what I use in a year and a half. Al Gore has gotten rich as ...., I am very conservative, pollute and produce garbage as little as I can, but this is a scam. Methods of measurements now that have an accuracy of .01 comparing to reading on instruments with an accuracy of 2, there are so many indicators that this is bunk, that's not even in the range of error that they report is the difference.

[kevin_e]

It really doesn't matter who or what the cause of global warming and climate change is. The issues that it is/will cause will be detrimental to societies and our way of life; that's why it is a concern to people.

I really don't care whether it's anthropogenic related or not. Pointing fingers and directing blame does not solve the issues at hand. Those issues include sea level rise (detrimental to coastal cities), oceanic acidification (detrimental to oceanic resources), and unstable weather patterns (also detrimental to our food and water supply). The biggest potential issue is the shutdown our the global circulation system from the increase of fresh water in the polar regions from ice melt; this would have devastating effects on global climate, which would devastate economies around the world.

These issues will lead to more poverty, further food supply issues, water scarcity and war.

[kevin_e]

Originally Posted by cougareyes

The foundation of global warming belief is rising co2 levels. Scientific fact that co2 chases temp not the other way around as the green gang preach. Now 3 government labs have been shut done for falsifying records concerning climate change, why lie? Check the Vostok ice core sample study where there has been higher c02 many times in history than today, many times before the industrial revolution. Alternative energy companies going bankrupt with our tax dollars, carbon taxes, hypocrisy. One of the famous big mouth spokes person used electrical energy in one month in one of his houses equal to what I use in a year and a half. Al Gore has gotten rich as ...., I am very conservative, pollute and produce garbage as little as I can, but this is a scam. Methods of measurements now that have an accuracy of .01 comparing to reading on instruments with an accuracy of 2, there are so many indicators that this is bunk, that's not even in the range of error that they report is the difference.

"This statement does not tell the whole story. The initial changes in temperature during this period are explained by changes in the Earth’s orbit around the sun, which affects the amount of seasonal sunlight reaching the Earth’s surface. In the case of warming, the lag between temperature and CO2 is explained as follows: as ocean temperatures rise, oceans release CO2 into the atmosphere. In turn, this release amplifies the warming trend, leading to yet more CO2 being released. In other words, increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming. This positive feedback is necessary to trigger the shifts between glacials and interglacials as the effect of orbital changes is too weak to cause such variation. Additional positive feedbacks which play an important role in this process include other greenhouse gases, and changes in ice sheet cover and vegetation patterns."

A 2012 study by Shakun et al. looked at temperature changes 20,000 years ago (the last glacial-interglacial transition) from around the world and added more detail to our understanding of the CO2-temperature change relationship. They found that:
•The Earth's orbital cycles triggered warming in the Arctic approximately 19,000 years ago, causing large amounts of ice to melt, flooding the oceans with fresh water.
•This influx of fresh water then disrupted ocean current circulation, in turn causing a seesawing of heat between the hemispheres.
•The Southern Hemisphere and its oceans warmed first, starting about 18,000 years ago. As the Southern Ocean warms, the solubility of CO2 in water falls. This causes the oceans to give up more CO2, releasing it into the atmosphere.


"While the orbital cycles triggered the initial warming, overall, more than 90% of the glacial-interglacial warming occured after that atmospheric CO2 increase (Figure 2).

Figure 2: Average global temperature (blue), Antarctic temperature (red), and atmospheric CO2 concentration (yellow dots)."

[kevin_e]

Originally Posted by PIPSTER

Many resources could have been used probably before this voyage even started that would have shown the way is always blocked, always has been, always will be. Satellite images would have been a common sense start.


The rest of what you have to say is as much a denial of reality as that "captain" and whoever else was on that ship:



There's the NASA link about the Antarctic, and this silly boat story is near the other polar area of the world. It's not localized, the entire "Northeast Passage" is iced in...in the summer. This isn't the first time this has happened.

Amazing how many people are delusional and readily accept such lies.

What you are discussing is "weather", not "climate". You may have years that produce anomalies, but overall, sea ice coverage in summer months has drastically reduced and has been reducing, more or less, year to year.

The same can be said with ocean temperatures and terrestrial temperatures. It wasn't but a couple of years ago that the US had one of the colder winters it has had in the recent past, but yet, the average global temperature continued to rise, as does the trend of hottest years on record. 14 of the 16 hottest years on record have occurred since 2000.

What you may be seeing in the arctic THIS YEAR may be associated with the Southern-Oscillation (El Nino/ La Nina), which is not well understood.

I'm not really sure what you believe the NASA link proved. 2014 was still the hottest year on record and the arctic was at one of its lowest ice coverage in recorded history. The very article clearly stated that with climate change, not every place on earth will react the same way. Some places will, cool and others will warm. In some scenarios, conditions may be right to produce what we saw in the Antarctic in 2014. But overall the trend is towards additional ice coverage and a cooler climate. Furthermore, ice volume within the Antarctic is likely shrinking (i.e thinner ice): "Melting ice on the edges of the Antarctic continent could be leading to more fresh, just-above-freezing water, which makes refreezing into sea ice easier". This means ice is meting from underneath the ice sheets and refreezing further out along the edges. Ice may be expanding in area, but may not be in volume.

http://www.ibtimes.com/nasa-says-201...w-lows-2393025

[cougareyes]

What we do definitely affects our environment, we see that plainly in the artificial environments in which we create. The extent of the green army propaganda is based more in fraudulent data and computer models than fact. The earth is ever changing and there is no way you could come to any conclusions from collected data for a few decades, compared to an earth millions of years old. I find this subject to be more political and greed motivated than concern for environment.

[HippieSmell]

The fact that climate change is even debated in the US is more a commentary on our education system and the existence of systemic propaganda than the state of climate science.

[Reel North]

When the government begins reaching into my pocket, and hires guys to fly around on 747 to preach at me, I start to tune it out. I try to pollute the least I can, grow some food, and minimize my personal footprint on the planet.

When world leaders preach about climate change, and blather on about taxes, and fees, and carbon credits, you know someone is getting rich and it isn't you.

The UN climate people have clearly said that this is about redistribution of wealth, and has nothing to do with climate science.

When the largest polluters get a 20 year free pass to continue to build coal plants, and rape and pillage their lands and pollute as much as they want in the name of "fairness", how serious is this problem really.

If we are destroying the planet at the rate they tell us we are, then why not clamp down hard on India, China, Russia etc etc?

Answer that one, simple question. Why are they giving the largest polluters on earth a free pass......

[Reef Frog]

Sea level rise is real.

Ocean acidification is real and the link to CO2 is real and proven. As reefers, we fully understand what that does to a coral reef. We all know what elevated CO2 in out tanks do to pH.

It is hotter globally then it has been 200, 100, 50 years ago. Fact.

WHERE THINGS COMPLICATED:
Sophisticated climate modeling requires super computers, incredibly sophisticated software, many millenia of data which we don't have and a huge array of observation technologies. All of these things are really only in their infancy.

But enormous human hubris on the part of many says we've got it all figured out now...and CO2 is fully to blame...end of story...doubters shut your pie holes dang it! Heck science can't decide if coffee is good or bad for us. CO2 may very well be the main or a major driver but we unlikely have all the data there is on the subject, and maybe we never will. An open and skeptical mind must be maintained before you let our dysfunctional government go wild on the issue. So much is unknown. During the Middle Ages a mini ice age has occurred. We know the ice age reached its peak 12,000 years ago and it's been getting warmer ever since. We barely understand ocean currents, their histories and how they change. Astrological causes are often not factored in properly. There's a lot more to learn.

I'm working from memory here. But the USA has done a fantastic job in reducing overall energy use AND CO2 emissions during the last 25 years. Our CO2 emissions are now at a 1993 level. But our economic output has doubled or tripled and we've added somewhere around 40 million additional people to the population, at least the ones we can count.

That's fantastic and we should give ourselves credit for that. You rarely hear about it in the news media or political circles. Using less energy benefits the consumer, businesses (except big oil), national security, and the environment. Many really rotten countries have lots of oil and I'm OK with their corrupt rulers get a nice haircut.

The planet is indeed over populated and overall population seems to be accelerating with no end in sight. This is likely to lead to all kinds of unsolvable problems. This is just an opinion of course. But the developing world is going to develop no matter what - and they'll undoubtably do it inefficiently and with precious little regard for environment issues much less CO2 control.

So keep an open mind, but in the end....yea we're probably screwed in the long term. We'll know more in a 100 years or so but in the mean time hope for the best!

[skanderson]

you forgot to mention that it is cooler than it was 1000 years ago. funny how that always gets left off the list.

[Alexraptor]

I call total BS on the notion that the planet is over populated.
Our planet would be more than capable of sustaining us several times over if it and it's resources were properly managed and if people just weren't so damn greedy.

[HippieSmell]

Originally Posted by skanderson

you forgot to mention that it is cooler than it was 1000 years ago. funny how that always gets left off the list.

It wasn't warmer 1000 years ago. I'm not trying to be terse or flippant, but it wasn't globally warmer. There was a warming period, but we've surpassed it.