Protein Skimmer

[lfduty]

I run a Skimmer my self but i have it going i stages it dont run just my horses tank my reef tank dumps in the SH tank first thin it gos in to the sump and thin the skimmer will doits job and thin back into the reef tank.

[pledosophy]

Tami is that you?

Nice to see you on the boards. Your not around so much anymore.

I would love to see any of the research you have on the topic. I have talked with a few different public facilities regarding GBD and regarding vibrio. It is funny the way they react to the question, but there is a ton of info out there. I know my local aquarium does not have problems with GBD, but they have a 4' tall tank, and while there is a skimmer in the system it is not attched directly to the seahorse system, but rather a large sump that runs multiple tanks. I haven't been to too many Public Aquariums but I have never seen one that ran an HOB skimmer to be able to report a problem. Lots of Public Aquariums have had problems with vibrio which they are more then happy to share there juicy research.

Anyways, glad to see ya, would love if you could post some of what you do have.

Thanks

[ReefNutPA]

Fishguy13:

FWIW... Off and on I've had 4 different seahorse tanks set up with various species (Erectus, Barbouri, Caps, Reidi, Kuda) since 2001. I used HOB skimmers on each tank including SeaClones, Prizms, BakPaks and AquaC Remora's. Not to jinx myself... I have yet to encounter a GBD issue.

I personally don't feel skimming is the main culprit of GBD. Perhaps it may be best to speculate that IF conditions are right AND you use a skimmer you are more likely to have a GBD issue than if no skimmer were on the tank.

I, like pledospohy, am awed at the work Marty has done for the advancement of the seahorse hobby. I'm certain that if there is a heriditary or biological predisposition to GBD that given time Marty will pinpoint it.

Additionally, given more time, research and information, if we continue to share ideas on the hobbyist level combined with scientific research (such as Marty is documenting) then perhaps we can figure out what the "other" conditions are that when combined with skimming results in a GBD issue if the horse has a genetic predisposition to the condition.

Just my opinions.....

Tom

[RichConley]

Originally posted by FishGrrl

I do not disagree that whatever works for you is the right answer. Unfortunately, with the number of seahorse people being afraid of skimmers is frightening - since many do not have adequite alternative nutrient export systems. With waste producers like seahorses, small water changes are not going to keep up with the waste being produced.

Thats most of my point right there. Theres too much misinformation being thrown about in the seahorse hobby, and its keeping people from using equipment, and doing things that would help their tanks. Theres entirely too many anecdotes being passed off as fact. I would hazard to say, that on most tanks without skimmers, a skimmer would improve the health of the seahorses.

My comment about Myco that you seem to disagree with greenighs, myco WILL indeed cause swelling and bloating in seahorses. I've seen myco infected horses, and they do swell.

The fact that a drug that deals with fluid secretion seems to help makes me think it has NOTHING to do with gas, or anything along those lines, and more along the lines of just being a general stress response... which would explain why one cause has not been found yet. (like HLLE in tangs, pretty much anything can cause it)

[TamiW]

pledosophy,
It is me. Or at least I think it is me, though you didn't state which Tami you speak of. I don't recognize your handle though; sorry.

The problem I have with Anne's "study" was that none of it was replicated, and many people have attempted to duplicated it without the same results. Tetra test kits were also used to measure oxygen saturation, and they are notoriously innaccurate. The only way you're going to accurately measure oxygen saturation is with a saturometer.

As for the information from public aquarias; I really think I need to get some more samples to even begin to compile the information. That's actually what stopped me last time I tried to do something with it - too little information. Each aquarium was thorough with their answers; however none seemed to have related situations. The only conclusion I could firmly draw is that they all appeared to have different causes (and that skimmers didn't seem to be it.)

But perhaps this is the kick in the pants I need to follow up with this, and see if I can get more responses.


Rich, I do agree, and strongly suspect more than anything GBD is stress related. It CAN be induced by gas supersaturation; but that can happen with any fish. However the varied responses really leads me to believe its something else. A great example right now is I have a few cb erectus in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. I've been feeding heavily; and not keeping up with water changes, using the excuse that "they're tough". I saw this morning that the male has pouch bloat. I don't have a skimmer on the tank; but I strongly suspect a skimmer would have prevented it.

I'd really like to see some side by side experiements to determine the cause of gas bubble disease. But that would require someone having a bunch of seahorses they didn't mind potentially losing; and I feel very few people are willing to do that. I know I'm not.

[lfduty]

I have a 35gall that i bilt im going to start to play with but naw im going to put a skimmer on it and put 20 seahorses in it with 25lbs of Miracle mudandlive mysid shrimp 15 blue hermits and some caulerpa 3 tips and see what gos on.
Im sick of evry one saying NO to some thing that thay thim selves wont try like you say (very few people are willing to do that. I know I'm not.) so i will it wont be eney loss to me. Im going to put it up naw I will post what is going on with the tank evry MONDAY.

[pledosophy]

If you put 20 seahorses in a 35 gallon tank GBD willbe the least of your problems. Your right I have never done this, but I know it won't end well. I've never set my pubic hair on fire either, but don't think I'll try it any time soon, nor would I recommend it.

Tami, I mean Tami Wiess, and yes I do believe it is you. I know you from the other site. Have traded some posts with you. When I was a lurker I used to follow your posts quite some years ago.

Rich,

If it was just a stress thing from the addition of an internal pump then the problem would be associated with powerheads, and internal or HOB refugiums. But it is not. It is only predominantly associated with protein skimmers.

I do not think that skimmers are the only, or the primary cause of GBD. All I have stated from the first post of mine in this thread, up until now that seahorses who are predisposed to GBD show more problems with GBD in tanks with HOB skimmers.

While myco can cause some swelling, the appearance is entirely different then GBD. They are not the same disorder.

[RichConley]

pledosophy, I have yet to see more than 2 or 3 anecdotal accounts of it occuring after putting on a skimmer. And that could be explained by change in polution in water.

I think you saying it is predominately associated with skimmers is contrary to the evidence presented, and misleading.

[TamiW]

pledosophy, that is me!

The problem I have with the skimmer theory is that it goes back to early literature where air stone bubbles were blamed for air in the pouch. It was pretty apparent to me that this was people observing bubbles in the tank, and assuming that was where the bubbles in the pouch came from. When air stones became more and more rare, people started looking at the next source of bubbles; skimmers.

The problem is that it occurs so frequently without a skimmer, and all permutations (removing, adding, adding then removing, removing then adding) that it seems completely unrelated. If it occurs and there is a skimmer on the tank, then the skimmer is the cause. If it occurs and the tank doesn't have a skimmer, then the cause is "other". It seems more likely that the cause is always "other" and the skimmer is irrelivent but common enough on tanks for people to falsely link the two.

I don't doubt there is good work going on at seahorse.org regarding gas bubble disease, but it seems that there is too much focus on trying to prove skimmers are the cause rather than unbiasedly searching for the cause. Maybe that's changed; its been a while since I regularly participated there. But that's what I recall.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by FishGrrl
pledosophy, that is me!

The problem I have with the skimmer theory is that it goes back to early literature where air stone bubbles were blamed for air in the pouch. It was pretty apparent to me that this was people observing bubbles in the tank, and assuming that was where the bubbles in the pouch came from. When air stones became more and more rare, people started looking at the next source of bubbles; skimmers.

The problem is that it occurs so frequently without a skimmer, and all permutations (removing, adding, adding then removing, removing then adding) that it seems completely unrelated. If it occurs and there is a skimmer on the tank, then the skimmer is the cause. If it occurs and the tank doesn't have a skimmer, then the cause is "other". It seems more likely that the cause is always "other" and the skimmer is irrelivent but common enough on tanks for people to falsely link the two.

I don't doubt there is good work going on at seahorse.org regarding gas bubble disease, but it seems that there is too much focus on trying to prove skimmers are the cause rather than unbiasedly searching for the cause. Maybe that's changed; its been a while since I regularly participated there. But that's what I recall.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say. The scientific method is lacking here. You're supposed to try to disprove your theory, not prove it.

The whole "if theres a skimmer on there, its at fault, if theres not, its other" is just too much of a cop out for me to take it seriously. Its not a valid theory because there is no way to disprove it.

[pledosophy]

You are over generalizing and putting words into my posts that are not there. I have stated repeatedly that protein skimmers only increase the frequency of GBD in seahorses that are predisposed.

pledosophy, I have yet to see more than 2 or 3 anecdotal accounts of it occuring after putting on a skimmer

This just further shows your lack of experience in this matter. It does not meant that further research, beyond your own exposure, has not been done.

I think you saying it is predominately associated with skimmers is contrary to the evidence presented, and misleading.

The survey on the org at the last tally which was just over 6 months ago, shows that almost 80% of cases of GBD occured with the use of a HOB protein skimmer. I would say that justifies as predominant. You can read through the posts yourself, I did provide you a link to the forum. I do not know the exact number or participants in the survey at that time, I think it was shy of a hundred.

There has to be some reason why major seahorse breeding facilties in the U.S don't use HOB protein skimmers. That out of the 5 Public Aquariums that I have experience with, none of them use HOB protein skimmers on there seahorse tanks. That all of the Sealife Centers throughout Europe, have removed there protein skimmers from all of there systems after experiencing GBD problems(the problems have not returned).

While I will agree with you the studies do not hold up to the scrutiny of the scientific method, at some point the volume of ancedotal evidence does begin to have a voice.

While there is a current experiment going on I will be surprised if we see a tremendous volume of data accumulated in the acadmeic world beyond what we have seen.

The research is intresting to us because we are seahorse nuts, practically it has little value. Seahorses are not bred for human consumption, and there market price is not so great to justify the research money. At this time there is simply more important things to be looked into.

Take into account that several treatments for GBD have been found and proven effective, there is just no real incentive for massive research to be done. All of these treatments are designed based on the assumption that it is a CO2 problem. They are effective. If the problem was bacterial they would not be.

Tami,
I think you'd be impressed at how far things have come.

There is an entire team of seahorse experts, marine biologists, and pathologists working together and really making some great headway. They are kind enough to share there findings with the rest of us. It is a really great group of people.

[RichConley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pledosophy

The survey on the org at the last tally which was just over 6 months ago, shows that almost 80% of cases of GBD occured with the use of a HOB protein skimmer. I would say that justifies as predominant. You can read through the posts yourself, I did provide you a link to the forum. I do not know the exact number or participants in the survey at that time, I think it was shy of a hundred.

All that says is that these people had skimmers. CORRELATION DOES NOT CREATE CAUSATION.

There has to be some reason why major seahorse breeding facilties in the U.S don't use HOB protein skimmers. That out of the 5 Public Aquariums that I have experience with, none of them use HOB protein skimmers on there seahorse tanks.

Theres a real good reason: HOB skimmers are overpriced, dont perform well, and generally well, suck.

While I will agree with you the studies do not hold up to the scrutiny of the scientific method, at some point the volume of ancedotal evidence does begin to have a voice.

While there is a current experiment going on I will be surprised if we see a tremendous volume of data accumulated in the acadmeic world beyond what we have seen.

Again, until you can repeatedly, and predictably reproduce it, it doesnt mean ANYTHING.

Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence that says hermit crabs kill tangs, but we all know that isnt true, but i guarantee if theres a dead tang in your tank, a hermit crab is gonna try and eat it.

DO you have a list of what skimmers you were using? No, I bet not. How do you know its not one specific model of skimmer with bad pumps? Rios leaking electricty? You dont. You're making suppositions based on weak evidence.

[pledosophy]

Originally posted by RichConley
Theres a real good reason: HOB skimmers are overpriced, dont perform well, and generally well, suck.

Agreed, which is why people should not use them on seahorse tanks.

Again, until you can repeatedly, and predictably reproduce it, it doesnt mean ANYTHING.

Agreed, but is has been repeated and reproduced several times, by several different keepers, under several different scenario's. You not having exposure to it does not make it not so. The information is all out there is you would like to investigate for yourself.

Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence that says hermit crabs kill tangs, but we all know that isnt true, but i guarantee if theres a dead tang in your tank, a hermit crab is gonna try and eat it.

That's just ridiculous. Everyone knows how susceptable those slow moving tangs are to hermit crabs.

DO you have a list of what skimmers you were using? No, I bet not. How do you know its not one specific model of skimmer with bad pumps?

Actually I do. Seaclones seem to be the worst at causing reoccurances. The type of pump used has shown to be a non factor.

The survey was not designed to be pointed towards skimmers. It runs a wide variety of question including tank maintnence, breeding practices, tank parameters, making of salt water, types of water, number of seahorses, disease history, nutrition and feeding habits, treatments of GBD, frequency of occurance, tank specifications including size, height, width, type of substrate, amount of substrate, tankmates, coral mates, types of macro algaes, presence of nuisance algaes or bacteria's, lighting types, lighting intensity, light cycles, presence of external refugiums, light cycle for fuge if present, types of filters used including make, UV presence, types of aeratiuon, amount of flow, and surface agitation.

The study did not look into skimmers causing GBD, it looked into the tanks were GBD was present, factored multiple things, with the results showing that protein skimmers were the key factor involved. The number of survey completed to get the 80% number was 85. It is not the largest survey completed, but it is sizeable.

You're making suppositions based on weak evidence.

The only suppositions based on no evidence I have seen in this thread is you stating that GBD is infact myco bacteria related, or that GBD is a stress response. You made further claims based on your misinterpretaion of the use of Diamox, and how the drug works.

Instead of telling me what I do and do not have or have accsess to, why not come up with some kind of research or intellgent justification for your "thoughts".

IMO people who randomly post personal opinions like they are facts only fool themselves and people with little to no experience. For years there was a women on these boards who preached about new fry raising techniques until it was finally discovered after years that she was never able to raise fry with these techniques, and all the info she had stated over those years was completely made up. Those of us who have been around awhile easily saw through her, but several newbies fell into her trap because it was what they wanted to hear.

I am sorry but the experience has made me very untrusting of people who come to this forum and make post suggesting that everything that I have learned through years of research is false.

IMO it is extremely irresponsible and selfish to come to boards like these where people are seeking help or trying to learn and post wild accusations without any explanation or justification other then I think, or I doubt.

Why not clear some things up.

Under what circumstances have you viewed a seahorse that was afflicted with GBD mimick the symptoms of mycobacteria?

Under what situation have you seen a seahorse with mycobacteria mimick the symptoms of a seahorse with GBD?

Have you ever experienced a seahorse with GBD to form granuloma formation in the affected sites which can include muscle, skin and the internal organs?

Who diagnosised the myco? Was a strain identified?

When have you ever seen a seahorse with GBD respond to antibiotics? Which antibiotics? At what dosage?

Assuming that CO2 or 02 saturation is not the cause of GBD and cleaner water is like you suggested with your "the skimmer cleans the water which causes the seahorses to be stressed and succomb to the GBD" arguement, can you name any other disease that affects syngnathids that arises from cleaning water? Any other marine fish? (we are assuming this does not include massive water changes which would quickly alter the PH or temp because the addition of a skimmer would not cause such conditions)

Why don't all seahorses who have GBD culture positive for myco?

Why does temperature not affect the growth rate of GBD, as it would if it were bacterial?

Why does a change in depth cure the mycobacteria when it presents itself as GBD?

Why do we only see GBD in aquarium settings, when we see other bacterial conditions in the ocean?

What would cause the secondary infection to present as GBD instead of the vibrio spectrum illnesses that have been identified and documented over the past two years?

Can you please list any bacteria related disorders that affect syngnathids to the point of causing visible symptoms, that just disappear on there own? Any others that disappear after a protein skimmer is removed?

I think that's a good start.

[RichConley]

Ok. This is exactly why I dont go on seahorse.org anymore. Point proven.

Here's a question for you: What percentage of seahorse owners were running HOB skimmers on their tanks at the time the survey was taken?


Without that number, that 85% is absolutely useless. EVERYONE I know with a smaller (<75g) seahorse tank, is running a HOB skimmer. So if I assume 90% using HOB skimmers, saying 85% of GBD cases were in tanks with skimmers is actually evidence that GBD is HELPED by skimmers. Do you have those facts? I dont think so.


As to coming on this board and posting oppinions: You are posting your oppinion with no evidence to back it up. All of your survey is CRAP. It has absolutely no scientific merit, and is just about as valid of a conclusion as mine about Tangs being hunted by hermit crabs. Your 'survey' is hurting more than its helping.



STOP USING THE WORD RESEARCH. NOTHING YOU HAVE DONE EVEN APPROACHES THAT TERM.

[only4fudge]

I have a 30g, and thankfully I have a skimmer now, before the water was always so dirty, and murky. With all the corals I have in there, on top of fish, I didnt think they would like the fact that they are literally swimming in their own $#!+.

Praise the man/woman who invented the skimmer!

[pledosophy]

Originally posted by RichConley
Ok. This is exactly why I dont go on seahorse.org anymore. Point proven.

Because you make unfounded statments with no explanation and are asked to back them up? I noticed you didn't answer any of the questions. You could at least try.

Here's a question for you: What percentage of seahorse owners were running HOB skimmers on their tanks at the time the survey was taken?

This survey was not designed for that. The point of the survey was to determin potential triggers for the disorder. Anyone posting in the emergency forum with GBD was asked to fill out the survey, some have, leaving the survey where it is today. It was not designed specifically to pin point protein skimmers. The ideas about protein skimmers came after the survey, not before. The survey took an unbaised approach just gathering data.

Just to be clear, it is not my survey. I was just lucky enough to see the results early.

I think the arguement your making can easily be compared to the arguements about cigarette smoking. I had an uncle who smoked 4 packs a day for 20 years and never got cancer, that doesn't mean cigarettes don't cause cancer.

Infact most people who smoke cigarettes don't get lung cancer, and there are even people who get lung cancer that don't smoke.

Lot's of people will reoprt that they use protein skimmers without issue, that does not mean that it is not the cause of the problem with other seahorses. It seems IMO that the cause is more directly related to those seahorses who are predisposed to the disorder because of a hyper or hypo active enzyme carbonic anhydrase. That is why you do not see protein skimmers causing GBD with all seahorses. With seahorses who are predisposed, protein skimmers can be directly linked to reoccuring cases through piles of ancedotal evidence, the finding of Public Aquariums, and through the research paper I posted earlier in this thread.

So if I assume 90% using HOB skimmers, saying 85% of GBD cases were in tanks with skimmers is actually evidence that GBD is HELPED by skimmers. Do you have those facts? I dont think so.

I'm sorry I can't follow your logic here at all.

To my knowledge tehre has been no wide spread study done on the amount of keepers who use protein skimmers compared to the mount that do not. If we could get a rough number here I think it would be intresting.

It would also be intresting to see what percentage of seahorses have trouble with the enzyme carbonic anhydrase and then try to put the different numbers together and see where they ended up.

You would have to remove people who kept tanks over 4' in depth, because taking a seahorse 4' below the waters surface can cure GBD on it's own.

That would be an intresting study. I suggest you pursuit it.

As to coming on this board and posting oppinions: You are posting your oppinion with no evidence to back it up.

Please take the time to go through and read my posts again. You will find an abstract of a research paper where experiments with protein skimmers and seahorses were performed, a link to a forum dedicated to GBD with posts by people like Marc Lamont, Keith Gentry, Pete Giownja, David Warland, etc, etc, and you will also find my explanation of research related to the particular enzymes involved from Dr Belli (Labdoc), a pathologist who has made significant contributions to the hobby in relation to syngnathid care.

If all you are going to do is continue to dismiss anything outside of your own opinion as rubbish without presenting anything that would even suggest it to be contrary, then I don't really see a point in continuing this.

Maybe it better to agree to disagree.

[TamiW]

Originally posted by pledosophy
To my knowledge tehre has been no wide spread study done on the amount of keepers who use protein skimmers compared to the mount that do not. If we could get a rough number here I think it would be intresting.

And this is exactly why the survey is useless (well, one of many reasons). Without a basis to judge the number of skimmers, you have no idea how many people DON'T have problems using skimmers. If in all seahorse users, 80% use skimmers, and 20% don't; and then of all the gas bubble disease cases, 80% have skimmers on the tank and 20% don't, what that would be saying is that skimmers have absolutely nothing to do with GBD. If it turns out that 95% of seahorse keepers use skimmers and 5% don't, and 80% of the gbd cases have skimmers, 20% don't, then that suggests that skimmers actually help, not hinder.

I understand you didn't set up the survey, but you're treating it like it is valid, and its just not. I remember at IMAC not long ago Marc Lamont of seahorse.org got into a debate with Jeff Mitchell from the Shedd Aquarium after Marc's talk. Jeff pointed out his flawed methodology, and his (Marc's) argument was that the scientific community is trapped by inside the box thinking and that his research didn't need to be peer reviewed to be valid. I'm paraphrasing, but the point is that no scientific group is going to take any of this information seriously because it doesn't mean anything.

Furthermore, you have to take into account that the skimmers are evil mantra at seahorse.org prevents unbiased discussion. I know that I was alienated after vehemently disagreeing with the research methods being used and suggesting we try to work with outside sources, not drive them away (aquariums, other seahorse related communities). I know several individuals that feel the same, some with real scientific backgrounds. How many others are there like that that I don't know about? That alone makes the survey biased towards people that toe the party line and are going to "notice" the problem and correlate to the skimmer.

If the survey was to be truly unbiased, they'd get there nearly 6000 members, opposed to a statistically insignificant 85, to fill out a survey that covered all aspects of their experience with seahorses, as well as specifics regarding each participlants experience with gas bubble disease. They would then form a hypothesis based on that information; nothing more, and start doing experiments based on that hypothesis that are documented and replicated. When I got involved with seahorse.org, real research involving outside unbiased labs was one of her goals. Unfortunately things went sideways for her and that ended that.

[RichConley]

Pledosophy, everything Fishgrrl says is 100% correct. There are specific reasons that control groups, and understandings of the total population need to be known.


Without them, this survey just doesnt mean anything, and is misleading.


Its worth than useless. Its a detriment to the hobby.

What needs to be done is figure out what % of people keeping seahorses are using HOB skimmers. Then figure out what percentage of people with GBD are using hob skimmers. If the number is even close, then the use of skimmers has no effect. If its significantly higher, than skimmers MAY be causing the issue. If its significantly lower, than skimmers MAY be preventing the issue.

WHat you have right now is akin to a marketing study.

[Fishguy13]

No more fighting ladies............ WOW you guys know a lot about seahorse thanks for all this helpful info

[simoneau]

(im new to sea horses) but i always think the closer to natural you can go the better!they are there own ecosystem yea know.there are plenty of people (with plenty of money)who will buy everything they make for salt tanks ( or fresh) and 90% of it isnt needed!my brother runs low lights and has no filters of anykind he has one power head and uses tap water in his 55g and he has a great looking tank he also hardly ever does any water changes and since my husband and i have fallowed his advice our tank is doin much better!so my advice is to not waste your money!

[djc1026]

Interesting read, I'm surprised the mods haven't stepped in yet I used to be a sponge and soak this stuff up like biscuits and gravy, then end up with a headache on a thread like this because of the strong opposing points of view.

My input for those who might be experiencing this is: Consider the information presented and make the most informed choice you can for your situation combined with what you personally know. Develop your own reasoning for doing things the way you do, make sure you understand why you're doing the things you are. You won't have to justify yourself to anyone, because you will be operating on your own premises based on your own choices.

We need these types of discussions for those that are into all the science of situations otherwise advancement would never happen without disagreement.

As an enthused aquarist, I personally don't care about all of the science behind the issue, I feel good that there are those out there investigating who can hopefully summarize there findings in lay terms to help me make my informed decisions, but the specifics just don't do it for me.

As for me, I use a HOB skimmer and don't do water changes - go figure If you want to know my reasoning please pm me and that's what I will tell you - reasoning, not science. (Flaming me will not incite me, so say to me what you wish for those this statement applies to.)

Very Respectfully,
Dave

[RichConley]

Very well put Dave.

My issue isnt the fact that they are claiming that skimmers are bad. Maybe they are, maybe they arent.

My issue is with scientific methods. You need control groups. You need to establish what the population is. You can't just grab a bunch of numbers and assume you're getting the whole picture.

The problem is that newbies in general dont understand how things work, so they have to just go off whatever article they can find. If those articles are based off coincidence, and not actual research, then they do nothing but hurt the hobby.

[pledosophy]

IME I have found it diffucult to get people to actually take a survey. You may know I have been researching mixing syngnathids species for the last year and a half. During that time I have come across hundreds of cases of people mixing species. When I come across anyone posting that they have more then one species in there tank, I send them a copy of a survey, and ask for there participation. The return response is discouraging. You would think people would be more willing to share, but they are not. For some reason many people don't feel the need to anwser all of the questions if they do participate, which then makes there survey responses useless.

I have also tried to start a thread thinking that maybe more people would like to be involved with a thread, then with a survey. Sent out close to a hundred invitation, have less then 10 posts. Out of those few anwsered the questions posed in the headline of the survey.

Getting the proper numbers is frustrating yes, but you will notice that the survey on GBD and the survey's on mixing species, have not been published. We know we need more, we are trying.

I don't know what the situation was a few years back on the org. I have been around for a couple of years, but know situations change. I know IME members of the org have suggested and put me in touch with several different scientists, university's, public aquarium's, and seahorse groups to help me compile more data on my specific research.

I am well aware that when I finsih my study on mixing syngnathids that I have spent years working on, that it will not meet up to scientific scrutiny. The cost of doing the research on that scale is upwards of half a million dollars, and no one is willing to fund it. Just because the funding is not there, does not mean that any of the conclusions that I have reached are not valid.

You will be able to point to my method and say my method is in error, but that does not mean you will be able to prove the conclusions wrong. The two are completely different.

I suspect that with time the same will be revealed about the GBD research. Accept that it is a work in progress and not a final result. To date it is the largest survey into the cause of GBD in aquariums in the world, if you choose to not call that research that is your perogative. From the first post where I cited anything I stated it was all ancedotal evidence in relation to the GBD, with exception to the research paper from the university, I have never represented it as anything different.

Originally posted by pledosophy
While I will admitt that none of the links I am going to give you will completely meet the scientific requirements for a controlled group and proof through repition,

On the 6000 member scenario, IMO it is not really practical. Let's go back to the smoking lung cancer analogy. If you survey 1000 non smokers you could find that the most common corelation with lung cancer and an environmental factor is experienced by coal miners. It's not really true. To see what causes things like lung cancer or emphysema scientists study people who are affected with the disorder. The same logic holds true here. To see what is the environmental cause of GBD the desicion was made by someone (not me) to look into seahorses who actually had GBD, as opposed to the ones that do not.

IME following the emergency forum over on the org for the last couple of years, in most cases removing the protein skimmer from the system aleviates the problem. I will conceed that GBD does occur in seahorse systems without skimmers. In my observation most of these systems have been lower flow tanks. Although I do know of one case off hand where the flow in the tank was 9.5x an hour and there was no skimmer, but still presence of GBD. It is my opinion that there are multiple triggers for the disorder.

On a sidenote. I know with my research into mixing species I have caught a lot of flak from hobbyists who disagree with my collection methods saying they do not follow the scientific method. Oddly enough I don't get this from scientists at all. I only receive direction and encouragement. I find it odd to be met with such resistance from fellow hobbyists and to be welcomed so easily by the scientific community. Curators of Public Aquariums, Pathologists, University department heads all give encouragement, the only resistance I find is places like these, a place that was designed for just this sort of thing.

Originally posted by RichConley

The problem is that newbies in general dont understand how things work, so they have to just go off whatever article they can find. If those articles are based off coincidence, and not actual research, then they do nothing but hurt the hobby.

I really think your not giving enough credit to the members of this forum. There are some pretty smart people if you look around.

Do you know there is no scientific proof that establishes that humans have the ability to smell. It is still a mystery. The way the olfatory senses work still eludes science. Does that mean we cannot smell? At one time gravity was a theory, yet we don't float away.

I do not think that sharing theories is detremental to anyone, as long as they are expressed cleary and stated for what they are. Infact I believe it is what sites like this were designed for. Collecting and sharing ancedotal evidence among various hobbyists can help direct science as to where to go to next.

I think the most harm to the hobby is done when people make up random things to have an excuse to post, or support their own theory.

Originally posted by RichConley
Kevin, I highly doubt different genetic makeups is the reason for some horses showing symptoms, and sometimes all of them showing symptoms. . . ., it could just be an injury.

I was under the impression that GBD was caused by bacterial infection.

Originally posted by RichConley

A lot of the symptoms for it sound like mycobacterium infection to me.

[djc1026]

So let me see if I can summarize this

1. GBD occurs in systems with AND without skimmers.
2. GBD occurs more frequently in systems with skimmers.
3. GBD appears to be alleviated in systems with skimmers when the skimmer is removed.
4. A conclusion to be drawn is that skimmers are not the cause of GBD, but exacerbate the condition, which some seahorses may be predisposed to.

This is called theory building and people don't have to have a single shred of concrete evidence to get there. You start with anecdotal info. Now, if Kevin had, what was it, half a million dollars, he may be able to test his theory with more scientifically sound methods. Until then, someone else needs to prove a theory that would disprove this one, and until that happens, people will follow and believe whatever they want.

And most people are smarter than we give them credit for. Those people who take things as gospel right off the bat just because someone sounds good or their post is 5000 words have a different problem all together.

Dave

[RichConley]

Originally posted by djc1026
So let me see if I can summarize this

1. GBD occurs in systems with AND without skimmers.
2. GBD occurs more frequently in systems with skimmers.
3. GBD appears to be alleviated in systems with skimmers when the skimmer is removed.
4. A conclusion to be drawn is that skimmers are not the cause of GBD, but exacerbate the condition, which some seahorses may be predisposed to.

2. GBD occurs more frequently in systems with skimmers.

You can't assume that. What you can assume is this
"More cases of GBD are present in tanks with skimmers"

Those two statements have completely different meanings.
And theres a corrolary to that: More systems have skimmers than dont. Which makes piece 2 completely useless. Its called a red herring.


Its akin to saying that

1) Athletes foot occurs whether or not people own bathing suits
2) Athlestes foot occurs more frequently with people who own bathing suits


Therfore, bathing suits must cause athletes foot.


We're missing the population. Thats the problem, and without it, the data doesnt say anything. This is not about science, its about probability and statistics. Its about what proves what.

Your survey says what it says: 85% of GBD cases reported in this survey had skimmers. Thats all it says. No conclusions can be made from it. The data is not complete.

I just polled everyone I know who owns seahorses in my local club. We have 95% skimmer use. That provides a correlation that skimmers actually reduce occurance of GBD.

95% SKimmer use, only 85% of cases had a skimmer, thats a pretty serious correlation. 5% of the tanks are accounting for 15% of the cases. That makes tanks without skimmers almost four times as likely to have GBD.