Nitrate Reduction - Should I Keep Trying?

[Sk8r]

YOur cal is 20 points low. 420 would be better.
You might indeed check that routing of excess waste; and also try vinegar dosing, since you have a problem---but do it only by the tables that are floating around here somewhere. Does anybody have the table?

[jason2459]

[jason2459]

FYI on the vinegar dosing or any carbon dosing since its been brought up several times. The charts are just recommendations. To get started they are good to follow and fairly conservative so shouldn't cause any issues with most systems. Issues that could arise with going to fast are bacteria blooms (lots of white cloudy water or stringy substances through out the tank and on the glass) which could be benign or potentially cause oxygen depletion. This is one reason it's recommended to run a skimmer when carbon dosing along with potentially exporting bacteria which is also exporting the nitrates and some phosphates it consumed with the acetate(carbon).

So, you can not go to slow when starting out and ramping up. Its that end point which will vary from system to system and there are a lot of variables that will influence how much you'll end up dosing in the end. It's been stated that its common to see systems dosing anywhere from .4-.8 ml per gallon per day of vinegar. For instance I'm dosing about 100ml per day through out the day via a 1.1ml doser ran a few minutes at a time several times a day. That puts me in that range. I found no additional benefit above that level. Reducing it and first phosphates start climbing a bit and if I keep reducing the dose then the nitrates start rising too.

I spread the dosing out as vinegar is more apt to reduce pH then something like vodka does due to vinegar is directly consumed with out the need of other types of bacteria to convert it like vodka does. Also I do it during the day as that's when pH is highest.


Vodka, assuming common us proof and acetic acid concentrations, is about 8x stronger. Mixtures of the two are popular which is what nopox is and you'll have to adjust from there. Seems popular mixtures are around 600-800ml of vinegar to 400-200ml of vodka. Please research more on doing that.


There's a lot more to it but that's just a few quick things off the top of my head. Really its very easy once you get past the science stuff. Just set up a Doser on a mutli timer and forget about it. At the beginning you could just bolus dose it ( manually all at once) as the amount is very little. Some bolus dose even once they get to their end points too. But if you have issues with pH or notice it start becoming an issue then just spread it out more.

[jason2459]

And here's some reference

Vinegar
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium

Vodka
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

Nopox broken down and other ratios of vinegar and vodka
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2408985&page=7

[QuiGonJay]

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. If i do go that route sounds like i may want to consider a small auto doser. Regarding calcium, I can look to up the dosing but I only have two small LPS frags and both are growing and happy so I'm more interested in keeping the nitrates managed than upping the calcium by 20 at this point, but I will keep an eye on it. Since the tank is new (about 8 months or so), I'm testing all critical parms, including ca, weekly in order to correct any weirdness. Honestly, despite playing around with dosing, the tank just seems to gravitate to 400. Maybe the corraline algae is sucking it up

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJay

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. If i do go that route sounds like i may want to consider a small auto doser. Regarding calcium, I can look to up the dosing but I only have two small LPS frags and both are growing and happy so I'm more interested in keeping the nitrates managed than upping the calcium by 20 at this point, but I will keep an eye on it. Since the tank is new (about 8 months or so), I'm testing all critical parms, including ca, weekly in order to correct any weirdness. Honestly, despite playing around with dosing, the tank just seems to gravitate to 400. Maybe the corraline algae is sucking it up

I would say you're a prime candidate for lime water aka kalk. I have used kalk in my ato for years. Super easy and simple. Maintains my alk, calcium, and a side benefit of pH as well.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/

[QuiGonJay]

Hmm. Will look into that as well. PH is another one that just doesn't budge above 8.0 in my tank. Currently I use the 2 part dosing to keep ca and alkalinity where it needs to be (small tank so not too expensive to dothis) . Have heard of kalk but not researched too much. Going to spend some quality time with all these great links this week and get educated. Thank you very much for the info!

[Dan_P]

20-30 ppm if true is high. Was it always that high or did it gradually accumulate to that level? After nine months denitrification bacteria should have started doing their thing.

High nitrate level corresponds to high protein input. How much are you feeding the fish every day? Are you feeding the coral?

Your water changes are too small to make a difference in the nitrate level.

I would expect phosphates to be high as well. What is the level?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJay

Hmm. Will look into that as well. PH is another one that just doesn't budge above 8.0 in my tank. Currently I use the 2 part dosing to keep ca and alkalinity where it needs to be (small tank so not too expensive to dothis) . Have heard of kalk but not researched too much. Going to spend some quality time with all these great links this week and get educated. Thank you very much for the info!

NP, there's a lot to learn and read. But don't let it overwhelm you. There are many ways to do this. Some people really like chasing numbers but it's easy to get burnt out doing so. I like numbers and have gone through my phases of testing just for the fun of it but never let it ruin the enjoyment of reef keeping. Algae blooms and tank crashes and all. Keep it going, keep it consistent, don't panic, and enjoy.

Since water change seems to be the subject of the night at least in the few threads I'm following here's another good read.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

[mbauma]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJay

First, the tank parms to get them out of the way. Top off is RODI always:

Tank - 45 gallon, 9 months old, Salinity: 1/026, temp 80, Ca: 400, KH: normally 9, now 7.5 (very odd, not sure why), MG 1400, PH 7.9/8, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 20-30 depending on the test kit (been trying to get this down for two months). About 50 pounds live rock. Water changes every other week - about 10%.

Inhabitants: 2 small ocellaris clowns, 3 small pajama cardinals, CUC, 2 pep shrimp, xenia, mushroom coral, tree coral, gorgonian, leather coral, duncan frag, candy cane frag, zoa frag.

The nitrates have been at 20 to 30 for the past 3 months. I've done some research and tried the following:

* Adding polyfilter to catch particles and replacing weekly.
* Cut feeding to every other day - only what they eat in less than a minute.
* No feeding of coral (other than some mysis spot feeding once a week for the LPS frags.
* Drain all frozen food before feeding.
* Added skimmer (2 weeks ago)
* Added ChemiPure Elite and Purigen to media baskets (2 weeks ago)
* Replace remaining carbon bag every month.

Simply put, nothing yet has really made a difference. But, other than my issues with a tree coral (see Soft Coral discussion thread if you have any advice - I need it!), all my other inhabitants seem quite happy. Even the LPS frags are growing. No real algae issues either.

Should I just relax (still keep skimming and what not of course!) and not stress? Maybe this is just how my tank rolls? Should I be occaisionally giving my filter feeders some marine snow or something? Right now, I'm so paranoid to feed anything to add to the nitrate issue, I wonder if I'm keeping it too lean.

Clearly saltwater tanks are not a good hobby for worry prone neurotic guys like me. . . .

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

With higher nitrate problems, small water changes will never touch it. Dilution never ends up working out right. You need to do a couple large water changes within a few days.

I used to have 80ppm nitrates in my 140 with no ill effects that I could tell and basically did a 90 gallon change, 2 days later a 45 gallon change and 4 days later another 90 gallon change that got NO3 to 1ppm. It now runs around 2 to 3 ppm. I also added on a Reef Octopus 110 Bio Pellet reactor, but it's only been up and running 2 weeks.

[jason2459]

I guess it's time to talk in circles as the thread gets longer.

There's a difference between having high nitrates which the OP has and nitrate problems which the OP doesn't have.

So, it would be advantageous for the OP to look into long term solutions to help maintain lower nitrate levels. Which several recommendations have been given. But since it's not a problem I wouldn't recommend quick drastic changes.

[DaveRaz]

Seems to me the more things we do to our tanks maintenance and dosing wise the less fun it is, for me anyway, and also can have consequence. My approach is to add surface area for the bacteria to mange nitrates. Whether it be more rock or various things on the market to assist in doing that. Marine pure for example.

Keeping a small bio load and managing nitrates naturally is my goal. Tring to KISS. And nothing replaces good ol husbandry. Good luck with whatever direction you go.

[cincyjim]

Originally Posted by Sgt Jonny Cat

I have been going crazy over Nitrates for almost a year now. My nitrates were up around your numbers 30+. 2 weeks ago I started dosing with Red Sea NOPOX. Today my nitrates are down to around 8ppm. The stuff seems to work very well. I also have a good Eshopps skimmer that pulls a lot of stuff out of my tank. Do a youtube search of NOPOX and see what you think. I'm definitely going to keep dosing. I didn't want to get into vodka/vinegar, and I trust Red Sea products. Good luck...

I started dosing NOPOX about 4 weeks ago. My nitrates were about 10 and to me that's a lot/too high for my tank. I have a deep sand bed which is about 5 inches but more shallow in the middle of the tank (current flow). My nitrates are about 1.5 (Red Sea test kit) or 2.5 (Salifert test kit). Both are brand new test kits so I have no idea why they read differently. I've never had an issue with phosphates but I do test often for them. I can say the stuff does work for sure and I'm pleased with it. I used half the recommended dosage because I had no experience using the product. I have read where some have dropped their nitrates in half or more in a week and I'm assuming they were using the full product dose. I'm just a little to cautious to make quick changes in the tank.
Jim

[dkeller_nc]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJay

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. If i do go that route sounds like i may want to consider a small auto doser.

Do not do this (the doser, carbon dosing with vinegar is fine). There are tons and tons of threads that are titled something to the effect of "my doser messed up and dumped XXXmL of vodka/vinegar in the tank, everything is dying". I'm not saying that a doser cannot be made to work safely, but it would be far better to start with manual additions everytime you feed to get a feel for the volumes involved. By the way, even though the table would indicate that you will be dosing 30-60mL of vinegar after a couple of months, many of us find that those amounts aren't necessary. In my 50 gallon cube (about 65 gal total system volume), 3 mL of vinegar per day added with a disposable pipette is enough to keep the nitrate concentration at <1 ppm, and this is with heavy feeding of both fish and corals. Every tank is different, but you might try the adding small amounts of vinegar once per day for a month - it might be enough to get your nitrates down, and no harm will come to your tank from adding 2-3mL of vinegar per day.

[jason2459]

Yep, there's nothing wrong with bolus dosing and with vinegar just keep an eye on pH and spread it out if needed. If I vodka dosed or any mixture with vodka I would bolus dose the vodka.

3ml/day of vinegar is really low amount for 65g total volume. The end point will vary quite a bit based on many variables but that is an unusually low amount.

But I'm basing that on my experience and what others have mentioned. The one range I've seen seems to match that of about .4-.8 ml/gallon per day of 5% vinegar. That's awesome that's all you need.

[soulpatch]

so if I read this right for a starting stone one could go with the nopox from red sea till they feel comfortable dosing vinegar or vodka?

Would any vodka/Vinegar do like absolute vodka or white vinegar?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by soulpatch

so if I read this right for a starting stone one could go with the nopox from red sea till they feel comfortable dosing vinegar or vodka?

Would any vodka/Vinegar do like absolute vodka or white vinegar?

Personally, I wouldn't waste money on nopox. I use cheap store brand white distilled vinegar. There's a suggested cheap brand of vodka in that vinegar/vodka/nopox link.

[pwdblue]

I have been looking for a way to reduce nitrates in my 325gl reef and have been kicking around vinegar dosing. My nitrates hover around 25 and my weekly water changes do not seem to want to lower my nitrates. My hanna hand held phosphate reader says I have 0 phosphates which I am skeptical about. I run a biopellet reactor but it is not lowering the nitrates. Can I do vinegar dosing and run biopellets at the same time? Do you use a doser to dose your vinegar? I have an apex running my system and if using a doser is the way to go, I could utilize it. Do you dose directly into the sump or into the top off water? I appreciate any help and advice.
Tim

[theMerchant]

Have you looked into a algae scrubber? No room? Then a upflow algae scrubber

[BigCountry74]

Originally Posted by QuiGonJay

Thanks for the advice. Will check out the products you mentioned. Skimmer is only 2 weeks in so maybe it hasn't kicked into high gear yet.

A good skimmer will go a long way in this hobby. Give it some time you will most definitely notice a difference once the skimmer breaks in.

You can also head down to the local fish store and buy a small hang on the back breeder box. Float some chaeto algae in it, hang it up top in the DT under one of your lights. It works wonders for my 40g long. Super easy to do.

[d0ughb0y]

assuming your newly mixed water has 0 nitrates, and you have cleaned your tank of all nitrate source, then all you need to do is double up on your water change rate and your nitrate will go down to 0 in 1-2 months.

[pwdblue]

I use RO/DI water, and I did test my salt water I use for my water changes and it showed approximately a nitrate value of 5. I use reef crystal salt, so I am assuming the nitrate is coming from the salt but could be wrong. With my system being large I do a 50 gallon water change every week. Have been doing this since October. The nitrates still won't come down. I switched out my bio pellets in October to Tropic Marin hoping that would help but it brought my nitrates down a little and now has leveled off at 20. I don't have an algae problem but I don't think the few SPS I have remaining are the happiest. Growth is slow, color is not great.

I have thought about a algae scrubber but I don't have room between my tank stand and my sump to squeeze it in the sump.

[d0ughb0y]

test the rodi water, it must read 0. I use reef crystal and it reads 0.

is 50 gallon 20% water change?
if it is not coming down, it means your nitrate source is still in your tank.

make sure your tank is clean. there could be accumulated waste somewhere you don't see or can't reach. as long as nitrate source is there, you will always have > 0 nitrate reading.

[pwdblue]

It is around a 15% water change. I will check out if my RO/DI water has nitrates in it.

I have a denitrator as well that I am not using. Would that be bad to run at the same time as my biopellets?

Thanks for the advise.

[pwdblue]

Question the algae I have growing on my glass on a weekly basis is brown not green does that mean something?