Lanthanum chloride

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by drtango
Gary-

Any issues with alkalinity? Before I dialed in a dose (30-40 ml in 40 gallons of RO topoff) I did notice a drop, and on one occasion did manage to get something rather hard and white complexed on my glass. No ill effects noted among fish or fauna. If I dose again, I'm gonna try the 10 micron filter. I think the magnum pleated filter is 10 micron, might try dripping into that.

John

yes... good point.
thanks for reminding me to post this. Very important:
Alkalinity can drop when dosing lanthanum chloride.

Using the dosing method I described in this thread the only other negative reaction I've observed was some heavy breathing in my Powder Blue Tang.

[tuckrule]

Very interesting. Gary, do you plan on using this as a routine maintenance thing or are you just going to use when PO4 is elevated?

[Gary Majchrzak]

routine maintenance for me when PO4 is elevated

remember: I have SPS in a reef aquarium with many fishes and a gigantea anemone that all require daily feedings.
It only takes 5 ml of diluted lanthanum chloride and a few minutes to clog up a 8" x 16" 10 micron filter!

[tmz]

Nice work Gary. Please keep us posted.
As for the alkalinity ,my guess is it drops because the phosphate is reduced sometimes rapidly. Since phosphate can attach to a precipitating calcium carbonate crystal and slow down abiotic and biotic precipitation (which is why high phosphate is bad for calcifying corals) . So as the prcipitation increases and the bi carbonate is used in this way the alkalinity would drop.

Thanks for the information on your test kit for nitrates. API seems to get pretty good reviews.

[SkiFletch]

Well, a few drops in the nano did no harm to the corals there so I'm gonna start dosing it to the reef tonight. If my math is right, I should be looking to dose 2.25ml to reduce my phosphate level to a desireable level. I'll start with 1ml and see how things go

[tuckrule]

Wow you guys are brave. Let us know how it goes with this. This could turn into a big deal.

[morris2]

Hi Gary,

So I have this straight:

- In the above picture, is that is your return line from your display to your sump? How much flow?

- You drip the Lanthanum Chloride into the sock.

- PO4 comes out of solution and captured in the filter sock.

- Remove and clean the sock

How fast do you drip your solution?
How long do you keep the sock in place?
The role of the skimmer is what? (remove excess Lanthanum Chloride ?)

Thanks for clarifying

[SkiFletch]

Brave indeed. Phosphates down from 0.5ppm to 0.25ppm after 1mL dose for me. Everything in the tank (fish/corals/inverts) all look fine. So far, so good, going for another 1mL dose tonight...

[tuckrule]

how are you guys dosing it? What are you using?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by morris2
Hi Gary,

So I have this straight:

- In the above picture, is that is your return line from your display to your sump? How much flow?

yes. I think those two drains are handling around 900 GPH.

Originally posted by morris2
- You drip the Lanthanum Chloride into the sock.

- PO4 comes out of solution and captured in the filter sock.

- Remove and clean the sock

yes yes and yes. Make sure to use a 10 micron filter!

Originally posted by morris2

How fast do you drip your solution?

I've been dosing 500 ml over the course of 5 minutes and repeating the procedure an hour later. I split up the treatment because my Powder Blue Tang seemed irritated when I dripped in the whole litre (1,000ml) all at once. If you drip too much too fast tank water can get cloudy and it might stain the glass. Go slow!

Originally posted by morris2

How long do you keep the sock in place?

3-4 hours. If you have a slow tank turnover rate you might want to keep the sock in place longer.

Originally posted by morris2

The role of the skimmer is what? (remove excess Lanthanum Chloride ?)

yes- sort of.
the lanthanum acts as a flocculent so it gets skimmed out along with skimmate. Lanthanum will change the foam head on your skimmer to a finer mass of bubbles. I'm quite sure the 10 micron filter catches and removes the vast majority of lanthanum as it binds to phosphates. The skimmer helps remove any residuals.

[morris2]

I found these filter socks on line. Looks like they should work.

https://www.aquaticeco.com/subcatego...with-Poly-Ring

https://www.aquaticeco.com/subcatego...495/Bag-Filter

[Gary Majchrzak]

hint:
search locally and make some phone calls. 10 micron filters are used for medical purposes.

[morris2]

Thanks,

I certainly like to shop locally and will check.

[Gary Majchrzak]

FYI: compiled from personal observations and my research on the topic so far:

*phosphates can fuel nuisance algae growth and inhibit calcification in living reef organisms:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
there are many varied methods for lowering phosphates in reef aquaria and it's beyond the scope of this thread to review all of them. Chemical adsorbers and flocculents are simply a few of the options available.

*granular ferric oxide and aluminum based PO4 adsorbers can be pricey and risky to some extent if used improperly. In certain cases (especially in large aquariums) these might not be a practical option.

some suggested ideal levels for PO4 in reef aquaria:
.06ppm - .1ppm using reliable low range PO4 test kit(s)

some suggested reliable low range PO4 test kits:

Elos phosphate test kit
Hach PO-19 & Hach PO-24
Deltec/Rowa/Merck (basically all the same with a different name on each)
Hanna Photometer and/or Colorimeter (Several models and a kit is available. Thanks for the info, Tom!)

[tmz]

Phosphates. In my well fed system, it is difficult to keep phosphates in line. I am able to keep them at.1 to .15 with gfo and aggressive skimming and macroalgae refugia. Lanthanum dosing may be in my future ,though so I'm watching with interest.

As I understand it, excess free phosphate( above .25 ppm) can inhibit precipitation of calcium carbonate with significant downside for corals,particularly sps corals. The phosphate ion attaches to a carbonate crystal blocking further attachment by calcium and carbonate and stopping pericpitaion. While this phenomenon may be seen as a good thing for maintaining tank calcium and alkalinity levels, it also interferes with the biotic precipitation corals create as they calcify and will stunt growth and may cause stn or rtn or "burnt tips or otyher ailments. While many seek phosphate levels of .02 ppm to .0-5 ppm which are similar to those found in near surface reef waters(levels are about 5x higher 30 ft down where many lps live),my sps seem to do fine as long as the level is below .2ppm. This level combined with the other phosphate users( macros) in my system seems to be sufficiently low to make nuisance algae a non problem while still allowing chaeto growth in the refugia and growth for lps as well as sps.
A caveat on phosphate reduction worth noting is that the organisms in your system are used to phosphate levels particular to your system and if a drastic reduction in PO4 levels occurs too quickly some of the corals and other desirable organisms may struggle until they have time to adjust the ways in which they gather and process phosphorous. So wether using gfo or other absorbing resins or flocculents such as lanthanum chloride, it is, in my opinion, a good idea to go easy an get the reduction you want over a week or two and not an hour or two, particulary in the very low ranges.

Looking forward to the outcomes and observations coming from this thread.

[KurtsReef]

Interesting read, and I plan on giving this a try.

While I was away for a few months my system was pretty much ignored, prior to that running a phosban reactor and my skimmer kept the phosphate levels in check and algae was not an issue...since my return I have not been able to get it back under control and assume its leaching from the rock after being saturated so this may be just what the doctor ordered to get the system back in line.

Thanks for the information.

[KurtsReef]

So...

Looking online trying to find 10 micron socks locally is fruitless.

By stating "medical" did you find it at CVS or something?

Found many online sources.

Hey reefshop owners, order a 50 pack...

[Gary Majchrzak]

as luck would have it I talked to a friend that's a manufacturer of many types of filters over the holiday. I might purchase a case.

[m-fine]

So does that mean you will become a local supplier of 10 micron filter socks?

[Gary Majchrzak]

probably not.
It would be more of a PITA for me than anything else. Let's face it-profit margins (if any) would be very low. I hate going to the post office or UPS and between work and family I'm already stressed for time. Supplying filters isn't my bag.

The reason I was going to stock up on filters was two fold: a savings for me (via bulk purchase) and a savings in time/gas making a trip every time I need a new filter.
Apparently, (after talking with this filter fellow over the Turkeyday holiday), woven 10 micron filters do need replacing as their fibers work loose over time.

[jansenwrasse]

Gary on the bottle of LnCl2 does it state the ammount of LnCl2 per mL? Just wondering how much is added?

Thanks

[Gary Majchrzak]

there's no concentration listed on the Seaklear product.

[Ellery]

Thanks Gary for bringing this topic back up and Pioneering some more local experiences. I will have to give it a whirl now that I'm done with my Grad school and now have more time to catch up my system.

[jansenwrasse]

Per the MSDS from the company it is 35-65% Lanthanum salt derivative.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by jansenwrasse
Per the MSDS from the company it is 35-65% Lanthanum salt derivative.

thanks for doing my homework