Blue ringed octopus

[Gonodactylus]

Part of the confusion here stems from the distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates. Invertebrates are often not considered "animals". Even within the regulations that my university must follow, the distinction is often not recognized. Things are starting to change. Were I working in the U.K. or Australia, cephalopods and lobsters would be included in the regulations. So far in the U.S., this is not the case.

Roy

[sacremon]

Another distinction with reptiles is that, unlike fish, they can potentially escape the confines of their cage, get out into the general population and bite someone. That is not going to happen with a fish or invertebrate (short of something like a walking catfish or other such exotic species, none of which I am aware of being venomous).

[shovel]

Originally posted by sacremon
Another distinction with reptiles is that, unlike fish, they can potentially escape the confines of their cage, get out into the general population and bite someone. That is not going to happen with a fish or invertebrate (short of something like a walking catfish or other such exotic species, none of which I am aware of being venomous).

ocotopus have been known to escape from their cages walk sevarl meters and climb into another tank and eat its' captive then return to it home aqurium obviously they cannnot last as long as snakes outside their home aquarrium but are still poteinolly deadly when they go on walkobout

[Koshmar]

The reptile restrictions probably have something to do with their natural flora, Salmonella. I checked into a CDC incidence report a few months ago when I was considering on buying a chameleon. There were some bad cases where small children were killed.
Kind of getting off topic but yeah, it's more than just the animal.
I would really like to see an octopus climb out of its tank, "walk" across the floor, and somehow get into another tank and then "walk" right back home. Sounds a little....well....yeah.

[Thales]

Salmonella is a different concern from venom.
Octos routinely get out of tanks that are not 'octo proofed' and can be found a good distance from their aquaria. Getting back might be another story.

[Koshmar]

I've heard stories of them getting out and being found away from the tank before but the part about one climbing back up and into it's own tank was a little far-fetched for me.
The Salmonella topic was meant to explain another concern other than a reptile simply biting someone or venom. I did not make a connection to venom.

[shovel]

From aquariums, stories are rampant about octopuses who sneak out of their enclosures at night and invite themselves into other tanks to gorge on the other aquarium residents. The deed completed, the octopus will return to their own enclosure, no one the wiser. However, this clever plan does not necessarily work out all the time, and “octopus suicide” is well-known among pet owners soure http://www.tonmo.com/cephcare/octoarticle.pdf

Removed~dc

[Koshmar]

Well sorry if I'm skepitical but it is a little hard to believe if you think about it. No need to be so offensive.

[shovel]

sorry that im offend when im called a liar even if you sugar coat it

[seventhz]

Originally posted by Thales
If anyone would know the reality it would be Roy, considering part of what he does for a living is research blue rings. There may be issues with Roy selling or trading the animals, but that would have to do with institutional rules or laws pertaining to his institution. If he were a hobbyist, he could sell or trade blue rings as much as he wanted - without paperwork.

I agree, I think that if it were in an endangered species list then that would be one thing but as for the sale or purchase of one, I doubt that there is a law prohibiting such a sale... surprisingly, no one here seems to have any hard facts to support their side of the debate although Roy seems to have come extremely close to a resolution. On the other hand, I feel that there is a good possibility that there may be a law that would apply to this debate, now that's not to say that such said law applies specifically to the blue ring octo but maybe a more broad application to highly venomous creatures in general. Either way, I would really like to see someone post a reference to law that does or does not prohibit the sale/purchase of these lil' beauties.

As for me, I would certianly love to own one but there's still just that little voice in the back of my head that says "are you REALLY sure that's such a good idea?" I've read from a reputable source that some blue rings can contain enough toxin to kill up to !10! adult men! I remember the first time I saw one in an article and thought "Wow! That is gorgeous!"... and then I read the article and quickly thought "well, I guess that eliminates him from my list of future specimens." I think that the ONLY way I would even consider keeping one of these guys is if I were to keep him in a tank that had already previously housed an octo and had proven to be "escape proof."

Ultimately, I think that these little gems probably should only be kept by professional aquarists with decades of experience or research institutions.

[seventhz]

Alright, well first of all... Shovel, you were never called a liar, Koshmar simply said "I would really like to see an octopus climb out of its tank, "walk" across the floor, and somehow get into another tank and then "walk" right back home. Sounds a little....well....yeah." It is rather difficult to believe and I sure would like to see this occur, BUT, let's not neglect the fact that these are very inteligent creatures and if they are capable distinguishing they owner from Joe Blow and are also capable of figuring out how to open a the lid to a jar to attain the prize inside... well then it's definately not beyond the realm of possibility. Also, from what I understand, octo's are very indulgent eaters and it wouldn't surpise me that an animal with such good eye sight and inteligence would look at a tank across the room and say to itself "That's where I want to be." This is a very interesting topic though, why would the octo return to it's home tank when it's found such a plentiful feeding ground? For Shovels sake, I would say that maybe this creature loves a target rich enviroment but it knows where it's "home/safe place" is and it will return there after gorging itself.

Another interesting aspect of this arguement, is that I would have to assume that the only way that this could possibly occur is if the water perimeters between the two tanks in question would have to be extremely similar... I understand that these creatures do not ship very well at all and that they require a more intense acclimation (someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

By the by, has it crossed anyones mind that the LFS owner who sold the blue ring for $20 along with a "death waiver" simply did so because he/she just wanted to get the damn thing out of his/her store knowing just how dangerous it was to keep one? I have no experience with these things what so ever and it amazes me that an LFS would even have one for sale... what amazes me the most though is that an LFS would sell one of these little gems for $20! I have to assume that if they had a good head on their shoulders then they would put forth the effort to find a buyer that would easily pay far more than 20 measly bucks for one. I mean really, why pay $50 for a common dwarf octo when this LFS is selling a blue ring for 20 bucks!? Would some care to comment on this assumption? Please, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[shovel]

http://us.mc596.mail.yahoo.com/mc/sh...2BozwfG8F0rsnQ
How can you buy a green mamba snake?A U.S. grand jury indicted a Las Vegas man last Friday for attempting to sell venomous reptiles over the Internet. While searching his home, U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents seized cobras, rattlesnakes, and even seven Eastern green mambas. Is it ever legal to sell a deadly snake?

CLOSEYes. In most places, it's not a criminal activity to sell venomous, or "hot," snakes over the Internet, but you do need a government permit. There aren't any federal laws regulating the hot-snake trade; each state controls these transactions through their wildlife or agriculture divisions. (Prospective snake buyers must obtain a similar permit to keep the animals.) State regulations vary widely. Massachusetts, for example, prohibits the sale or husbandry of hot snakes. Other states, including Nevada, grant licenses to sellers and buyers according to their ability to properly handle and house the snakes. (Applicants must demonstrate knowledge of various techniques, like how to use snake hooks, tongs, and other restraints.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related in Slate
Daniel Engber looked at how much it costs to buy a monkey over the Internet. Brenden I. Koerner explained the difference between an alligator, a caiman, and a crocodile; he also revealed that scorpions aren't actually that deadly. William Brantley shopped for the best bee sting antidote. Dana Stevens reviewed the action flick Snakes on a Plane, and Christopher Beam investigated how to really get a snake on a plane.Some federal oversight for the animal trade comes through the Endangered Species Act. You're not allowed to engage in any activity that might harm an animal that appears on the official list; selling an endangered animal for profit usually qualifies as exploitation. As of the writing of this column, no venomous snakes have been designated as endangered species. (Two kinds of hot snakes have been given "threatened" status—the New Mexican ridge-nosed rattlesnake and the Aruba Island rattlesnake; others, like the Eastern diamondback rattler and the Eastern coral snake, qualify for state endangered species lists). The federal government can also control wildlife trade through the Lacey Act, which prohibits the interstate trafficking of animals that have been obtained in violation of state laws.

I found this after a little looking but can't imaigne it is any differnt for any other posienous animals considering it cover scorpians and poisen dart frogs, both not reptiles.

Also it does not matter how it is worded when you tell someone that you do not belive them you are calling them a liar!

[seventhz]

Alright alright... *EDITED*not to be judgemental here but you are being a bit over reactive. You really 'snapped' like a snake when responding to Koshmars disbelief... which brings up another good point, last time I checked, the name of this website is titled "Reef Central", not "Herp Corner".... I really think that you are trying to apply way too much reptile information to a discussion that started with a blue ringed octopus. This is supposed to be a healthy discussion, not an arguement. I hope that I haven't offended you and I'm sorry if I have.

[Thales]

Originally posted by shovel


I found this after a little looking but can't imaigne it is any differnt for any other posienous animals considering it cover scorpians and poisen dart frogs, both not reptiles.

You don't have to imagine anything. There is no law regarding the sale/ownership of blue rings.

Also it does not matter how it is worded when you tell someone that you do not belive them you are calling them a liar! [/B]

I disagree completely. 'I don't believe you' and 'liar' are two very different things.

[Koshmar]

Lets just get back on topic.
Concerning selling blue rings, I have encountered a store in my area that sells them. They also sell sharks and other unusual creatures for aquariums, animals that should generally be left out in the ocean. I spoke with one of the sales people about the blue ring because they had just sold it when I visited. She said that they are really not dangerous if you know how to handle them. I think that most shops that sell these animals don't really have a grasp of their abilities in terms of harming people.
If I remember right, they are sold so cheap because they are easy to aquire.

[clint conway]

They are easy to aquire and not illegal to import. Should they be kept in the home aquarium, "I don't know". It all depends on the collector. There are many collectors of all animals. Venemous reptiles are kept all over the states by irresponsible collectors along with collectors that are proffesionals and very knowlegable. In my opinion you should need permits to keep this animal but you don't. Anyone with an importer exporter license can bring this animal into the states. As matter of fact they don't even have to be listed on the cities permits. These creatures are stunning and very intelligent but why not settle with a zebra or mimic octopus. They are now available and amazing to watch. They also have stunning colors to them. I've had one now for 1 1/2 years and it is always amazing me with new behaviors. Awesome thread everyone.

[Jeff]

Where is the line to get in to over react? Oh, here it is .

[Brock Fluharty]

Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora

Also known as CITES.

So why would the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora prevent someone from owning a blue-ring?

[shovel]

sorry i often type drunk, and seeing how it is aperntly not illeagel to own a blue ring I am giong to my lfs and ording one this afternoon! esspically befre prop669 takes effect

[Gonodactylus]

Just to be clear, CITES lists no octopus on Appendices I, II or III. Hapalochlaena are not afforded any protection by CITES international agreements.

Prohibition of import into the U.S. would come if the country of origin regulated export. If the animals are legally exported, the U.S. will allow Hapalochlaena to enter the country.

Roy

[Gonodactylus]

Here is the text of the relevant U.S. Fish and Wildlife regulations:

§ 16.13 Importation of live or dead fish,
mollusks, and crustaceans, or their
eggs.
(a) Upon an exporter filing a written
declaration with the District Director
of Customs at the port of entry as required
under § 14.61 of this chapter, live
or dead fish, mollusks, and crustaceans,
or parts thereof, or their
gametes or fertilized eggs, may be imported,
transported, and possessed in
VerDate Aug<31>2005 10:19 Oct 26, 2005 Jkt 205216 PO 00000 Frm 00103 Fmt 8010 Sfmt 8010 Y:\SGML\205216.XXX 205216
94
§ 16.13 50 CFR Ch. I (10–1–05 Edition)
captivity without a permit except as
follows:
(1) No such live fish, mollusks, crustacean,
or any progency or eggs thereof
may be released into the wild except by
the State wildlife conservation agency
having jurisdiction over the area of release
or by persons having prior written
permission from such agency.
(2) The importation, transportation,
or acquisition of any of the species listed
in this paragraph is prohibited except
as provided under the terms and
conditions set forth in § 16.22:
(i) Live fish or viable eggs of walking
catfish, family Clariidae;
(ii) Live mitten crabs, genus
Eriocheir, or their viable eggs;
(iii) Live mollusks, veligers, or viable
eggs of zebra mussels, genus Dreissena;
and
(iv) Any live fish or viable eggs of
snakehead fishes of the genera Channa
and Parachanna (or their generic synonyms
of Bostrychoides, Ophicephalus,
Ophiocephalus, and Parophiocephalus) of
the Family Channidae, including but
not limited to:
(A) Channa amphibeus (Chel or Borna
snakehead).
(B) Channa argus (Northern or Amur
snakehead).
(C) Channa asiatica (Chinese or
Northern Green snakehead).
(D) Channa aurantimaculata.
(E) Channa bankanensis (Bangka
snakehead).
(F) Channa baramensis (Baram
snakehead).
(G) Channa barca (barca or tiger
snakehead).
(H) Channa bleheri (rainbow or jewel
snakehead).
(I) Channa cyanospilos (bluespotted
snakehead).
(J) Channa gachua (dwarf, gaucha, or
frog snakehead).
(K) Channa harcourtbutleri (Inle
snakehead).
(L) Channa lucius (shiny or splendid
snakehead).
(M) Channa maculata (blotched
snakehead).
(N) Channa marulius (bullseye,
murrel, Indian, great, or cobra
snakehead).
(O) Channa maruloides (emperor
snakehead).
(P) Channa melanoptera.
(Q) Channa melasoma (black
snakehead).
(R) Channa micropeltes (giant, red, or
redline snakehead).
(S) Channa nox.
(T) Channa orientalis (Ceylon or Ceylonese
Green snakehead).
(U) Channa panaw.
(V) Channa pleurophthalmus (ocellated,
spotted, or eyespot snakehead).
(W) Channa punctata (dotted or spotted
snakehead).
(X) Channa stewartii (golden
snakehead).
(Y) Channa striata (chevron or striped
snakehead).
(Z) Parachanna africana (Niger or African
snakehead).
(AA) Parachanna insignis (Congo,
square-spotted African or light African
snakehead).
(BB) Parachanna obscura (dark African,
dusky, or square-spotted
snakehead

[seventhz]

Here is something interesting... I just called around to some LFS asking about acquiring a pigmy octo and one of their reps replied by saying "What kind are you looking for? Like a blue ring?" So to my surprise, apparently they are easy to acquire, even in Tulsa, OK. What I found as equally interesting is that the same rep told me that they stopped ordering octos from their supplier because they kept sending them females holding eggs knowing damn well that the octo was going to die soon. Just thought that I'd add that for interest... and honestly, the more that we talk about them and now that I know that they are available in Tulsa... I'm actually considering aquiring one Who knows though, maybe I'll choose something else just as cute and not as lethal

[Gonodactylus]

This is part of the problem. You can find blue-rings on many species lists coming out of Indonesia and the Philippines. The wholesale price is often under $10, so even if half of them die before they can be sold retail, there is profit to be made. I often order two dozen at a time and usually have to wait only a week or two for the order to be filled.

Roy

[sacremon]

Looking over that list of proscribed species, they would all appear to be ones that have at one time or another become invasive species in North American waters, killing off native species or causing other problems (zebra mussels I think were clogging power plant intakes on the Great Lakes as well as supplanting native species). None of them are venomous or poisonous, near as I can recall.

[Koshmar]

Would it be possible for a blue ring to become invasive relative to U.S. waters?