Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by alton

http://luxreview.com/article/2018/04...nned-in-europe
more expensive than T5 lamps and loose there effectiveness in 8 months.

so more like CFL's thna t5's..

Obviuosly the "tech" is closer related to cfl than T5's which don't

lose there effectiveness in 8 months

straight bent tube or squiggly one.. seems more similar than different. And stats do prove the ones above are less effective par wise than a straight t5.. pointing to efficiency differences (some prob due to geometry, some to circuit design, some ??..)

ALL tubes require ballasts.. Technically they should all be as efficient.. but they are not..

Guess as soon as you bend a tube it loses efficiency (speculation).

If you know why they should be different I'm all ears..

guess one can push to 100l/w
https://assets2.sylvania.com/media/img/asset-2234714

Again, just started this for reference..
Crappy t5 ballasts woudn't get 100l/watt either..

but you are correct, mostly referring to self ballasted lamps..
https://assets2.sylvania.com/media/img/asset-2062200

[alton]

You do realize we are two led users arguing about lamps on a MH versus LED thread? Have a great and enjoyable weekend. It is going to be 100 Degrees in South Texas this weekend and next week. I will probably turn my LEDS down from 10 hours to 8, because summer is here.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by alton

You do realize we are two led users arguing about lamps on a MH versus LED thread? Have a great and enjoyable weekend. It is going to be 100 Degrees in South Texas this weekend and next week. I will probably turn my LEDS down from 10 hours to 8, because summer is here.

After 6000 plus comments some diversity is a good thing..

[jestronix]

Speaking of diversity I've gone to Plasma

[shred5]

I wanted to post this a few weeks ago after lightfair but went on vacation and was busy before and after.

Well a few things.

Lightfair is mostly new fixtures.
A few things learned there.

One I would guess over 90 percent of the fixtures shown were led.

About 25 to 30 percent of the booths was cheap Chinese fixtures and their booths were empty.. No one is going to spec them because it is our blank if something goes wrong. With how expensive a booth is it seems like a waste of money for them. We also spec fixtures from a reliable rep who handles problems.

Another thing I learned is the leap in technology for spreading out led s with diffusers or indirect and what they can do for the price of a LED fixture. The reef hobby lighting is so far behind and ripping people off in price. . I mean Radions just started using a diffuser. The prices are stupid high for a cheap plastic fixture.

Even though 90 percent of the fixtures displayed were led when you looked up what did you see? Metal halide and HPS and the place is probably lit by over a thousand. My point is halides is going to be carried for a while when you still have HPS which never caught on to begin with because of the ugly yellow. I spend allot of time looking up at lights because of my job.

Also by the end of the day you are smashed because they lure you into booths with free drinks. Thankfully we took a bus.


Not anything to do lightfair but was talking to my LFS this weekend and they sell everything including high end. I was talking about ordering me a t-5 fixture and He told me led sales have slowed and there seems to be a swing back to halide and t-5. Believe me he is on top of everything too. He has people coming to him even from out of state because he carries allot of stuff you cant get at a lfs and competitive with internet prices. He also can order and carries hard to get fish. He carries everything from Radion, Kessil, AI to cheap Chinese fixtures. Just a straight up good guy too. Never seen a place with such loyal customers.

[Tripod1404]

This data shows web based interest towards MHs, LEDs and T5s in Fish & Aquaria related topics.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0halide,LED,T5

It shows since ~june 2010, LEDs have a clear lead over MH, and since November 2011 over T5.

Globally, data also shows interest towards each lighting system for regions and countries. It shows it both as total (first map), as well as, break down of each system (remaining maps).

There is no country where MHs have the majority of interest. Highest interest for MHs is in New Zealand and US where it is 27% and 26%. Still in both cases, it is lowest compared to LEDs or T5s. There are few contures where T5s are more popular than LEDs, these include Isreal, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, etc. Rest are all LED.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

This data shows web based interest towards MHs, LEDs and T5s in Fish & Aquaria related topics.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0halide,LED,T5

It shows since ~june 2010, LEDs have a clear lead over MH, and since November 2011 over T5.

Globally, data also shows interest towards each lighting system for regions and countries. It shows it both as total (first map), as well as, break down of each system (remaining maps).

There is no country where MHs have the majority of interest. Highest interest for MHs is in New Zealand and US where it is 27% and 26%. Still in both cases, it is lowest compared to LEDs or T5s. There are few contures where T5s are more popular than LEDs, these include Isreal, Hungary, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, etc. Rest are all LED.

What is this based on ? Searches? If so I would think people would search more for newer technology. Not much to learn about t-5 or halides that is not known. Not surprising at all

Even though I do not run led right now I read more about led because that is whats changing.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by shred5

What is this based on ? Searches? If so I would think people would search more for newer technology. Not much to learn about t-5 or halides that is not known. Not surprising at all

Even though I do not run led right now I read more about led because that is whats changing.

Yeah it is searches. But it includes every related search, not searches just to learn information. When you search ATI T5 bulbs, or MH bulbs (for replacement), it registers those as well.

Mainly it shows the overall interest towards the given terms.

[markalot]

That search is kind of silly. 2004? This thread started in 2012 when some people started noticing it wasn't easy to grow some corals under LED.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0halide,LED,T5

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by markalot

That search is kind of silly. 2004? This thread started in 2012 when some people started noticing it wasn't easy to grow some corals under LED.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0halide,LED,T5

What makes it silly? 2004 as back as you can go with google trends, that is why I did it that way. Making it last 5 years still show the same trend in a smaller range.

And it shows the trend of MH dominant, to a mix MH-T5 and then to a mix of T5-LED and finally to LED dominant pretty accurately.

[markalot]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

What makes it silly? 2004 as back as you can go with google trends, that is why I did it that way. Making it last 5 years still show the same trend in a smaller range.

And it shows the trend of MH dominant, to a mix MH-T5 and then to a mix of T5-LED and finally to LED dominant pretty accurately.

I wasn't aware freshwater even used MH. Why use google trends for such a niche part of the hobby?

The point is, besides early interest the trends since 2012 have been surprisingly flat. I know when I got started in 2012 I was all LED, then I had horrible luck with SPS and shading and but figured it was my water or fixtures so I stayed LED for a while and dumped a lot of money into BML strips to solve shading issues but colors on some of my SPS still looked liek crap. Finally got fed up and put some Aquaticlife T5 fixtures over my 40 breeder. When my luck suddenly changed I was told I fixed my water issues and it had nothing to do with the light.

This was, a couple of months after the switch.


1 month later.


These pictures were taken in 2014, which is why I picked the date. This was around the same time the 'something is wrong with LED' discussion started in earnest. I know I searched for T5 at the time.

So why have the aquarium trends for lighting been generally flat since 2014?

There is no good answer other than google trends is useless for this IMO, unless you want to suggest that MH use is no longer falling, or if it is falling the rate is extremely slow.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by markalot

I wasn't aware freshwater even used MH. Why use google trends for such a niche part of the hobby?

The point is, besides early interest the trends since 2012 have been surprisingly flat. I know when I got started in 2012 I was all LED, then I had horrible luck with SPS and shading and but figured it was my water or fixtures so I stayed LED for a while and dumped a lot of money into BML strips to solve shading issues but colors on some of my SPS still looked liek crap. Finally got fed up and put some Aquaticlife T5 fixtures over my 40 breeder. When my luck suddenly changed I was told I fixed my water issues and it had nothing to do with the light.

This was, a couple of months after the switch.


1 month later.


This picture was taken in 2014, which is why I picked the date. This was around the same time the 'something is wrong with LED' discussion started in earnest. I know I searched for T5 at the time.

So why have the aquarium trends for lighting been generally flat since 2014?

There is no good answer other than google trends is useless for this IMO, unless you want to suggest that MH use is no longer falling, or if it is falling the rate is extremely slow.

For the LED light, the most searched quote is "LED reef". So I doubt contributions from freshwater lights make a big difference. Most people who have freshwater tank dont care much about lighting. Ones who care keepplanted tanks and the most common light option for that is T5, if it was a main contribute, T5 number would be inexplicably inflated.

After 2012, if you remove LEDs and T5s, you can see it is not flat but still droping very slowly. If you have LEDs on the graph, it makes the scale to large to see that. Assuming number people entering into the hobby is increasing, staying same or slowly droping still indicates overall usage share is dropping more than that. Overall I agree that MH use is no longer falling (or falling at a very low rate), but its market share is getting smaller. Total number of people who use MHs is probably the same compared to 5 years ago, but number of people in this hobby is a lot larger compared to 5 years ago.

Over the years, with the given order, I used MHs, MH-T5 combo, LEDs and now I use LED-T5 combo. For me the LED-T5 combo gave the best results.

[markalot]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

Over the years, with the given order, I used MHs, MH-T5 combo, LEDs and now I use LED-T5 combo. For me the LED-T5 combo gave the best results.

Same, I use LED+T5 over both my tanks now, I can't stand the flat look of T5 only but it makes for great pictures and fluffy corals.

I think a better trend to watch is the pricing of long lasting LED lighting solutions that can produce the same brightness as some of the high wattage halide fixtures. Right now I think it's a simple cost equation. Replacing all the halides with LED in some of the bigger installations still doesn't make good cost sense. I do agree that once that point is reached then halide users might have a problem, either that or they get used to paying a lot more for bulbs.

We T5 users have a long and bright future so far, IMO. For me, bulbs are cheaper now than they were 6 years ago when I was buying 6700K for freshwater.

[dz6t]

There are/were metal halide used in freshwater plant tanks.


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[reefwiser]

Originally Posted by dz6t

There are/were metal halide used in freshwater plant tanks.


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Right Here:
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/p.../detail02.html
or here
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/p.../detail01.html

these are used on larger Planted Aquariums.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by reefwiser

Right Here:
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/p.../detail02.html
or here
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/p.../detail01.html

these are used on larger Planted Aquariums.

TRICKERY....

I just got back today from Aqua Forest's gracious event and demo. I took my PAR meter and Ian brought his as well to the event. Every tank I measured, the one that ranked 20th in the ADA contest last year in the wolrd ranking had no more than 150 micromol at the surface of the tank right near the HQI MH light. At the bottom all along the front, 35-40micrmol and near the window at noon time(north face), 50-55 micro mol.

Gloss, HC, E tennellus, moss etc, no issues..............

This is very low light overall.

PAR meters do not care about brands, lux, lumens, funky nutty correlation tables, the water, reflections, distance etc, they can drop down and measure the parameter that makes the plant produce sugars via photosynthesis right at the surface of individual leaves.

Someone said "there is a redder plant, measure there", so I did: no difference.
On to other tanks, exact same trends, all very low, 30-50micromol ranges at the bottoms, 150 or so at the highest, did not matter if if was a 180cm, 120cm, 90cm, 60cm, 45 cm sized tank, all where pretty much lower light tanks in each and every case.

I was a bit mythed about the ADA lights, they are really inefficient or set up that way to limit folk's from going wild with the lighting.

Many think more is better, so reducing it down helps folks do better and have better luck with CO2, so many think the ADA lights are better.

But not when tested...........

Almost 1/2 of what my lights are at home.
Much less.

https://barrreport.com/threads/ada-l...who-knew.4865/

I wanted to see and show folks that ADA lights are more form over function, they look nice etc, cost 2-3x as much and only put out 1/2 the light.

[dz6t]

Are we talking about a reef tank or plant tank regarding the PAR value.


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[oreo57]

Originally Posted by dz6t

Are we talking about a reef tank or plant tank regarding the PAR value.


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Tom Barrs discussion is for planted freshwater tanks..

Since the PAR necessary for fw tanks is "relatively" low in comparison to sw needs, MH's just won't survive well except as a "specialty look".
Granted the same LED vs everyone else is still even present in fw discussions.

That "victory" will generally be easier.. LOL..

Terrestrial plants, fw aquatic plants, sw photosynthetic organisms.. many similarities, many differences..

[reefwiser]

Corals react to light different from plants.
Light under water is refracted. Use what ever light
GIVES YOU. The results YOU want. It may not be what someone else wants.

[dz6t]

Originally Posted by reefwiser

Corals react to light different from plants.
Light under water is refracted. Use what ever light
GIVES YOU. The results YOU want. It may not be what someone else wants.

Indeed. Lighting is more a preference these days. All major led fixtures on the market have more than enough PAR for coral.


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[lancesmith1]

i have used VHO, T5, MH, and multiple LED. I am running a ORPHEK V4 now on a RSM E260 and it is the best I have seen.

[lancesmith1]

hang as many AC flashlights over your tank and see what the outcome is.

[lancesmith1]

ok. Back to the more serious discussion... the V4 ORPHEK is the best single lighting system i have tried hands downs. Just trying to help...

[dz6t]

Originally Posted by The ghost of 25

I can grow coral with a Coleman lantern in a 5 gallon bucket.

Many new hobbyists do not even know what metal halide is.


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[alton]

I betcha many do not know what a coleman lantern is?