Quick help needed, Kole dead during TT, making sure HPBT is ok.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 07:11 PM

So, I received a 2-3 inch Kole Tang last Sat, calling it Day 1 along with a 4.5 inch Hybrid Power Blue Tang.

They both arrived in excellent condition from two different online sources. Kole Vivid, HPBT from Divers Den. Salinity was pre-matched in a 20g L QT tank with stellar conditions, temperature acclimated and fish transferred from shipping bags. They both ate starting day Mysis, veggies and being introduced to seaweed strips which they both liked, especially the Kole.

Day 4 morning transferred to a rubbermaid container 15-17g same parameters for tank transfer method to make sure they were clear from Ich. I placed an ammonia badge and preemptively dosed Amquel 10 ml to start and 5ml a day to make ammonia would not be a factor. Power head used for surface agitation.

Day 7 morning transferred, smooth zero fuss or issues with a clear tupperware container with zero water transferred.

Day 9 checked on them frequently, feed them twice early, both looked active and eating well!! Place some seaweed for them to graze a little and removed that an hour or two later.

Went to feed them a little more and noticed the Kole tang dead. Sigh. Some pics incoming. They had PVC pipes and coffee cups especially for the Kole tang to hide from the power if needed. Powder seemed a little bossy but never saw anything really aggressive.

Guys, any help IDing would be a great help, not sure what did him in, but don't want to lose the both fish if at all possible.

Pics up, last is the powder before TT. Going to try and carefully get a current picture of him now. Tough to see them clearly in the rubbermaid.

-Das

Newsmyrna80 · 03/02/2014, 07:16 PM

Are those spots on the pectoral fin in the 2nd pic?

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsmyrna80

Are those spots on the pectoral fin in the 2nd pic?

Small bubbles, did notice any white Ich type on close inspection and bright lighting. Just those large whiter looking areas, doesn't slough. Maybe on area near his tail that could be bruising on one side.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 07:33 PM

Current pics from few minutes ago. Maybe a little pale, but very clean. Didn't notice any spots or lesions.

Berje · 03/02/2014, 07:56 PM

He could have just died from stress. moving a fish that much, especially a tang is never a good idea. I have ever bother with QT, you are putting a fish that swims miles a day into a 20 gal which probably stresses them out. As long as you keep your water clean and the fishes stress level down they will recover from ich if they have it.

OoNickoC · 03/02/2014, 08:09 PM

If I am reading this right they went from an established qt to a Rubbermaid bin for 3 days. Reguardless of ammonia readings I would be surprised if that didn't do them both in without it being a flow through system in the bin.

Newsmyrna80 · 03/02/2014, 08:13 PM

How is his breathing and eating?

ali1 · 03/02/2014, 08:16 PM

If they arrived in excellent condition, why r u doing the tank transfer method? You should only be observing for the first 2-3 weeks, then take action if something is found. i agree that TT causes more stress than good. If ich is found, i would prefer copper in the same tank so they atleast feel like their at home for the next few weeks.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsmyrna80

How is his breathing and eating?

Normal, just agitated when I removed him into the kitchen with brighter light for inspection and the photos.

Regarding the flow in the rubbermaid, I have a hydor Koralia 600 aimed at the surface for agitation and flow.

Did a quick 1/3 water change right after the Kole died. Later this evening I'll probably do the next transfer early just in case it is a water issue and I'm adding a clean air stone for the last TT before going back to a clean newly acquired breeder 40g for observation with Pazri.

The HPBT ate well about an hour ago and is acting fine.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali1

If they arrived in excellent condition, why r u doing the tank transfer method? You should only be observing for the first 2-3 weeks, then take action if something is found. i agree that TT causes more stress than good. If ich is found, i would prefer copper in the same tank so they atleast feel like their at home for the next few weeks.

Wild caught tangs, two of them, didn't want to take any changes. I've been smooth with the transfers.

Deinonych · 03/02/2014, 08:40 PM

I had a similar experience with a Kole Tang last summer. Made it through two transfers, then expired. I think they are very sensitive. I won't do TT for a Kole again.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deinonych

I had a similar experience with a Kole Tang last summer. Made it through two transfers, then expired. I think they are very sensitive. I won't do TT for a Kole again.

Yeah, could be. I'm just shocked he was active and eating well hours before.

Stress could be a major factor, but wouldn't that cause him to not eat and just hide?

Based on what I've read and discussed with a vendor, PBT are the sensitive touchy ones. "ich magnets" is a term I've come across often.

Can we rule out all the crazy things, like Brook, Velvet, etc?

OoNickoC · 03/02/2014, 09:10 PM

So the powder blue hub. is still in the freshly setup rubbermaid going on day 4?

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OoNickoC

So the powder blue hub. is still in the freshly setup rubbermaid going on day 4?

We're at day 9. They have both had been behaving normally. The kole would hide in a cup, or pvc elbow if wasn't cruising around. He was alert this morning, noticed food being added very quickly.

Guy's the transfer container has close to 20g of water. Same as the QT tank. Most of the stickies are doing the transfers in 5g buckets. Temp is a steady 78, checked frequently with digital thermometer, salinity for the two has been steady at 1.025. Transfers have all been early morning 6:30 am with a scoop method, poor out the water and place them in the new container. Matching parameters and temp prior to transfer. Refractometer calibrated used for salinity.

DasCamel · 03/02/2014, 11:01 PM

Alright, did the morning transfer a bit early to be on the safe side. Going to do small water changes and provide extra flow to keep everything ideal. Keeping it dark, he just goes to sleep in a large PVC pipe.

For now seems happy, trying to keep it that way. Feel bad for his buddy.

DasCamel · 03/03/2014, 12:26 PM

Quick update for those concerned, HPBT doing fine. Swimming out in the open, I think he expects food when I show up. Good sign. I'll get him stuffed again before his next and last transfer.

Best theories so far on the Kole are 1) Stress from shipping and transfers, 2) water flow, oxygenation issues, added an airstone in addition to the powerhead.

Newsmyrna80 · 03/03/2014, 02:59 PM

I think you would have noticed the symptoms with the Kole if it was oxygen/water related. It could've been stress. I do TT with every new fish and have no problem but I've not had a Kole tang...yet

It's the last fish I'm adding to the tank.

Neptune 555 · 03/03/2014, 03:34 PM

Keep us posted... I hope the powder blue does fine! I am re-stocking my tank... after being fallow for 8 weeks... Trying to figure out my strategy re: ich also as I add fish to my tank. I echo.. if I get ich again after all this.. I am only thinking about success : )

Neptune

DasCamel · 03/03/2014, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune 555

Keep us posted... I hope the powder blue does fine! I am re-stocking my tank... after being fallow for 8 weeks... Trying to figure out my strategy re: ich also as I add fish to my tank. I echo.. if I get ich again after all this.. I am only thinking about success : )

Neptune

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsmyrna80

I think you would have noticed the symptoms with the Kole if it was oxygen/water related. It could've been stress. I do TT with every new fish and have no problem but I've not had a Kole tang...yet

It's the last fish I'm adding to the tank.

I wanted to add these guys together as my last two fish. Would adding a Kole Tang later just be asking for trouble once a PBT establishes territory?

If I had to do it again, probably would have taken more time in the QT for the Kole and not done two fish together.

Good luck you guys, definitely a hobby that keeps us on our toes and continually learning. TT method in itself is a great technique, 13 days and ich free w/o meds is huge.

Anyway, what to do next...

ali1 · 03/04/2014, 06:34 AM

Your kole will be fine if u add it later. Its from a seperate family and they dont look alike.

DasCamel · 03/04/2014, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali1

Your kole will be fine if u add it later. Its from a seperate family and they dont look alike.

Thanks

DasCamel · 03/16/2014, 07:51 PM

Ok, update time.

The HPBT is doing great and is in the main tank. TT worked fine with him and I also treated hi with Prazi just to be on the safe side. Divers Den does a spectacular job sending strong healthy fish it seems. He was used to mysis and quickly developed a ferocious appetite for seaweed.

I have another Kole Tang that just finished TT method and is in the QT with Prazi, zero issues.

Lesson learned here, probably best to do TT method with just one fish. I'm thinking both, in a tight space was a bit excessive, but the TT works great w/o meds. I feed before the transfers a ton, excess didn't matter they were being moved anyway.

Thanks for the help everyone.

ca1ore · 03/17/2014, 06:54 AM

Although I personally don't do TT (mainly for logistics reasons), a number of very capable, experienced reefers I know swear by it. Sometimes fish just die, and the reasons are often not clear. Glad your second Kole is good.

snorvich · 03/17/2014, 08:00 AM

As a prophylactic methodology for ich (and only ich), tank transfer will result in 100% success rate with healthy fish. I agree only one fish at a time is desirable. Any other prophylactic methodology has a risk (be it chloroquinine phosphate, hyposalinity, or copper) because for ich, the first part of the life cycle is highly predictable from a time perspective, whereas the back end of the life cycle is not. The timing of theront emission is highly variable, normally up to 28 days, but depending on strain of cryptocaryon irritans, it has been known to take up to 72 days. Theronts are the vulnerable part of the life cycle and are killed by chloroquine phosphate, copper if it is at a therapeutic level, or hyposalinity if it is a 1.009 SG. An average life cycle appears to be 1 to 2 weeks; however, life cycle durations may range from 6 days to 11 weeks, primarily because of the unpredictability of tomont development (Colorni and Burgess 1997; Dickerson 2006; Yambot 2003). Virtually noone keeps fish in a prophylactic quarantine that long, and few keep it for 35 days which would be the requirement to kill theronts in the normally occuring time frame. Whereas with tank transfer, 12 days and you are 100% certain to eliminate ich (cryptocaryon irritans) This is why we see anecdotal cases where "quarantine" for ich is unsuccessful.

03/02/2014, 07:16 PM	#2
Newsmyrna80 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 2,312	Are those spots on the pectoral fin in the 2nd pic? __________________ 80 gal frag with 30 gal refugium, Orphek Atlantik LED, Red Sea RSK300 skimmer, predominately SPS and LPS Current Tank Info: 80 gallon reef tank with 30 gal refugium

03/02/2014, 08:09 PM	#6
OoNickoC Curator of glass boxes Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Vallejo Ca Posts: 289	If I am reading this right they went from an established qt to a Rubbermaid bin for 3 days. Reguardless of ammonia readings I would be surprised if that didn't do them both in without it being a flow through system in the bin. __________________ __________________________________________________________________________ The methodologies for reef keeping are vast in numbers, in turn a lack of exploration is a disservice to one's self. Current Tank Info: She is small but mighty

03/02/2014, 08:13 PM	#7
Newsmyrna80 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 2,312	How is his breathing and eating? __________________ 80 gal frag with 30 gal refugium, Orphek Atlantik LED, Red Sea RSK300 skimmer, predominately SPS and LPS Current Tank Info: 80 gallon reef tank with 30 gal refugium

03/02/2014, 08:16 PM	#8
ali1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 997	If they arrived in excellent condition, why r u doing the tank transfer method? You should only be observing for the first 2-3 weeks, then take action if something is found. i agree that TT causes more stress than good. If ich is found, i would prefer copper in the same tank so they atleast feel like their at home for the next few weeks. __________________ Originally Posted by Gogandantess "I'm totally frustrated by this disease. My display has been fallow for 2 months now. If ich happened to mysteriously appear again, I'm giving up and going back to African Cichilds."

03/02/2014, 08:40 PM	#11
Deinonych Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 4,191	I had a similar experience with a Kole Tang last summer. Made it through two transfers, then expired. I think they are very sensitive. I won't do TT for a Kole again. __________________ Chris Hope is not a strategy. Display Tank: DSA 105 w/36gal sump/fuge · 2x MP40wES PHs · 2x Radion Gen2 · Apex w/PM2 · Fish · Corals · Rock · Sand · Water

03/02/2014, 07:56 PM	#5
Berje Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 63	He could have just died from stress. moving a fish that much, especially a tang is never a good idea. I have ever bother with QT, you are putting a fish that swims miles a day into a 20 gal which probably stresses them out. As long as you keep your water clean and the fishes stress level down they will recover from ich if they have it.

03/02/2014, 09:10 PM	#13
OoNickoC Curator of glass boxes Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Vallejo Ca Posts: 289	So the powder blue hub. is still in the freshly setup rubbermaid going on day 4? __________________ __________________________________________________________________________ The methodologies for reef keeping are vast in numbers, in turn a lack of exploration is a disservice to one's self. Current Tank Info: She is small but mighty

03/02/2014, 11:01 PM	#15
DasCamel Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Kenmore, WA Posts: 1,542	Update Alright, did the morning transfer a bit early to be on the safe side. Going to do small water changes and provide extra flow to keep everything ideal. Keeping it dark, he just goes to sleep in a large PVC pipe. For now seems happy, trying to keep it that way. Feel bad for his buddy. __________________ 375g DT 125g sump acrylic, Mixed SPS/LPS tank with anemones and fish. Current Tank Info: 375g Build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608197

03/03/2014, 12:26 PM	#16
DasCamel Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Kenmore, WA Posts: 1,542	Quick update for those concerned, HPBT doing fine. Swimming out in the open, I think he expects food when I show up. Good sign. I'll get him stuffed again before his next and last transfer. Best theories so far on the Kole are 1) Stress from shipping and transfers, 2) water flow, oxygenation issues, added an airstone in addition to the powerhead. __________________ 375g DT 125g sump acrylic, Mixed SPS/LPS tank with anemones and fish. Current Tank Info: 375g Build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608197

03/03/2014, 02:59 PM	#17
Newsmyrna80 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 2,312	I think you would have noticed the symptoms with the Kole if it was oxygen/water related. It could've been stress. I do TT with every new fish and have no problem but I've not had a Kole tang...yet It's the last fish I'm adding to the tank. __________________ 80 gal frag with 30 gal refugium, Orphek Atlantik LED, Red Sea RSK300 skimmer, predominately SPS and LPS Current Tank Info: 80 gallon reef tank with 30 gal refugium

03/03/2014, 03:34 PM	#18
Neptune 555 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 330	Keep us posted... I hope the powder blue does fine! I am re-stocking my tank... after being fallow for 8 weeks... Trying to figure out my strategy re: ich also as I add fish to my tank. I echo.. if I get ich again after all this.. I am only thinking about success : ) Neptune

03/04/2014, 06:34 AM	#20
ali1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 997	Your kole will be fine if u add it later. Its from a seperate family and they dont look alike. __________________ Originally Posted by Gogandantess "I'm totally frustrated by this disease. My display has been fallow for 2 months now. If ich happened to mysteriously appear again, I'm giving up and going back to African Cichilds."

03/16/2014, 07:51 PM	#22
DasCamel Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Kenmore, WA Posts: 1,542	Ok, update time. The HPBT is doing great and is in the main tank. TT worked fine with him and I also treated hi with Prazi just to be on the safe side. Divers Den does a spectacular job sending strong healthy fish it seems. He was used to mysis and quickly developed a ferocious appetite for seaweed. I have another Kole Tang that just finished TT method and is in the QT with Prazi, zero issues. Lesson learned here, probably best to do TT method with just one fish. I'm thinking both, in a tight space was a bit excessive, but the TT works great w/o meds. I feed before the transfers a ton, excess didn't matter they were being moved anyway. Thanks for the help everyone. __________________ 375g DT 125g sump acrylic, Mixed SPS/LPS tank with anemones and fish. Current Tank Info: 375g Build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608197

03/17/2014, 06:54 AM	#23
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	Although I personally don't do TT (mainly for logistics reasons), a number of very capable, experienced reefers I know swear by it. Sometimes fish just die, and the reasons are often not clear. Glad your second Kole is good. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

03/17/2014, 08:00 AM	#24
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	As a prophylactic methodology for ich (and only ich), tank transfer will result in 100% success rate with healthy fish. I agree only one fish at a time is desirable. Any other prophylactic methodology has a risk (be it chloroquinine phosphate, hyposalinity, or copper) because for ich, the first part of the life cycle is highly predictable from a time perspective, whereas the back end of the life cycle is not. The timing of theront emission is highly variable, normally up to 28 days, but depending on strain of cryptocaryon irritans, it has been known to take up to 72 days. Theronts are the vulnerable part of the life cycle and are killed by chloroquine phosphate, copper if it is at a therapeutic level, or hyposalinity if it is a 1.009 SG. An average life cycle appears to be 1 to 2 weeks; however, life cycle durations may range from 6 days to 11 weeks, primarily because of the unpredictability of tomont development (Colorni and Burgess 1997; Dickerson 2006; Yambot 2003). Virtually noone keeps fish in a prophylactic quarantine that long, and few keep it for 35 days which would be the requirement to kill theronts in the normally occuring time frame. Whereas with tank transfer, 12 days and you are 100% certain to eliminate ich (cryptocaryon irritans) This is why we see anecdotal cases where "quarantine" for ich is unsuccessful.