Pale SPS

[Bill Nye]

Hello,

I was wondering how to decrease the pale/drab coloration of my acro's. I've had Acro frags in tank for about 3 months (Rock is ~2 years old) but have had problems with coloration and growth. I just picked up some new corals from my usual guy and his stuff was noticeably deeper in color.

I have a barebottom 50 gallon breeder with an 6 Bulb Ati sunpower hung 8 inches over the water line. I have 4 fish (2 clown, 1 chromis, 1 firefish) that I feed once or twice a day. I also dose the Aquaforest nutrient line at 1/2 dose but despite all of this my nutrients are always 0 for nitrate and 0-.01 for phosphorus. I also haven't changed my GFO in 6 weeks (4 TBSP to start) so I'm guessing its fully depleted. I am going to take it offline this week if I don't see any increase.

I have been feeding more heavily and dosing more nutrients for about 2 months now but the main difference I've noticed is the corals have started growing faster but not much in the way of color.

How can I get my nutrients to increase? Should I add more fish? Raise my light even further?

[Gweeds]

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

Hello,

I was wondering how to decrease the pale/drab coloration of my acro's. I've had Acro frags in tank for about 3 months (Rock is ~2 years old) but have had problems with coloration and growth. I just picked up some new corals from my usual guy and his stuff was noticeably deeper in color.

I have a barebottom 50 gallon breeder with an 6 Bulb Ati sunpower hung 8 inches over the water line. I have 4 fish (2 clown, 1 chromis, 1 firefish) that I feed once or twice a day. I also dose the Aquaforest nutrient line at 1/2 dose but despite all of this my nutrients are always 0 for nitrate and 0-.01 for phosphorus. I also haven't changed my GFO in 6 weeks (4 TBSP to start) so I'm guessing its fully depleted. I am going to take it offline this week if I don't see any increase.

I have been feeding more heavily and dosing more nutrients for about 2 months now but the main difference I've noticed is the corals have started growing faster but not much in the way of color.

How can I get my nutrients to increase? Should I add more fish? Raise my light even further?

Pale colours are usually down to nutrients... looks like yours are off the scale low... I'd be wanting to bump po4 up to around 0.025 at least (some go a lot higher) and nitrates to 5ppm. It'll be the low nitrates which have the biggest effect on colour. Adding more fish will certainly help, if it's just one more you're adding then go for something messy to get the most out of it, so to speak!

Lighting seems fine as long as tubes are being replaced every 6 months.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[jda]

I would stop the GFO. P is Ok to be that low if it is there on it's own - I would not drive it that low artificially. It might take more than a week, but as long as you are under .1, then I would not sweat P that much.

Nitrate at 0 are OK as long as you are not artificially keeping them low - you have some that a hobby test kit cannot see and the anoxic bacteria are in equilibrium consuming them. As long as you are not carbon dosing and are letting the tank handle them naturally, then you will always have enough, but not too much.

Check your other basics like salinty and temp. High temp can dull coral colors just like salinity that is too high and low. I assume that your big 3 are OK?

[Bill Nye]

Originally Posted by jda

I would stop the GFO. P is Ok to be that low if it is there on it's own - I would not drive it that low artificially. It might take more than a week, but as long as you are under .1, then I would not sweat P that much.

Nitrate at 0 are OK as long as you are not artificially keeping them low - you have some that a hobby test kit cannot see and the anoxic bacteria are in equilibrium consuming them. As long as you are not carbon dosing and are letting the tank handle them naturally, then you will always have enough, but not too much.

Check your other basics like salinty and temp. High temp can dull coral colors just like salinity that is too high and low. I assume that your big 3 are OK?

Thanks again for the info Jda.

My big three are in line. Calc - 420, kH - 7.3-7.4 and mg 1450.

Some other weird things about my tank:

1) Coralline algae growth is slow. Its started to pick up as I've increased my kalk dosage but for a tank that has been set up for 2 years it's pathetic.

2) No green algae has ever grown in the tank even when it crashed and I ignored it for a couple months other than top off and feeding the fish. The only thing I get is brown slime algae/bacteria and fuzzy brown algae that grows on the glass.

Could this be due to low pH? I checked my pH recently and it was 7.8 with low saturation kalk solution.

There has been nothing I can do that will raise nitrates. I am gonna add some more fish and see where things go. I'd rather carbon dose and decrease nitrate than sit at 0 since it seems its not enough to support good color.

I check my salinity every week with a hydrometer and calibrate with saline solution. I bought it two years ago so perhaps it could be wrong now?

[jda]

Have you seen my photos bouncing around - the color is great? That probably sounded pretty doooochie. I have .1 N on an ICP test - it shows perfectly clear on Salifert. I can assure you that a naturally-controlled nitrate near zero is no problem. If you are driving it low by interfering, then this can get bad since there could truly be very little in there. In a natural solution, there is always enough to keep the bacteria consuming them and they never get too low.

I used to have really low PH when we lived in the midwest since our home was always closed up. It never had an impact on anything except for my sanity until I learned to ignore it. We have an open home here in Colorado and I have lived both sides and see no difference. Others will disagree, but I am old school on this and was convinced by Dr Holmes Farley over a decade ago - just ignore the PH.

I cannot think of anything else, really. Are you using a quality salt? ...they are not all the same and some are not as good for acropora, IMO.

[Bill Nye]

No problem, I am just looking for a possible problem I'm not doubting you.

I use red sea blue bucket for my water change. The only thing I could think of is I mix a large batch and use it over a month rather than what they suggest. I am also going to get my water tested and see if there is something going wrong.

I test alk every other day and everything else once a week. I do daily maintenance and use excel to track all my parameters and everything has been stable, I'm just frustrated since I cant find the problem. I even bought a potassium test and that wasn't the problem either.

[jda]

I guess check your magnets for rare earth? I am convinced that normal magnets don't do any damage since I had a few cheap ones get nasty with no issues whatsoever - they still need to leave the tank. From what I have heard rare earth (nice ones) can do damage.

I have never used it, but that is a quality salt by all accounts. Unless the salt has organic carbon in it, then it can wait. I let my IO sit for weeks sometimes.

Does any of that aquaforest stuff have harsh metals in it? Some of the zeo stuff has some zinc and tin or some other sort to kill some zoox and make colors contrast a bit more - this can also result in paling. I don't use AF stuff, so just wondering, but this is pretty popular in the euro dosing products.

[Bill Nye]

Aquaforest Energy is like a mix of Coral vitalizer and very dilute zeospur (copper sulfate?). I was dosing this for a while but stopped when it wasn't helping with color. It's not the nice pastels people get with zeo or aquaforest its more dull than pale I guess.

I use two vortechs for my pumps and a magdrive for my return. My magdrive is pretty old so perhaps its leaching something?

[reefmutt]

Energy does have copper in it but at half dose, it shouldn’t be an issue.
Can you list all the additives you add?

[Bill Nye]

These are the supplements I use

AF AA - 1 drop 3 x week
AF Vitality - 1 drop 3 x week
AF Build - 1 drop 3 x week
AF Energy - Stopped using
Sponge power - 1 drop every other day
Biomate - 2 drops 2 x week
AF power food - 1 spoon 2 x week

[reefmutt]

Ok thanks.. what’s biomate?
What’s your photoperiod?

[Bill Nye]

Biomate is supposed to remove sludge off of rocks. When I was getting my tank back in shape after the crash there was a lot of black film and cyano on the rockwork. I've just continued with a maintenance dose since I have a lot of it left.

[reefmutt]

I see, so probably a bacterial based product.. not sure but it may be reducing nutrients a bit..
What’s your lighting schedule?

[Bill Nye]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

I see, so probably a bacterial based product.. not sure but it may be reducing nutrients a bit..
What’s your lighting schedule?

2 bulbs on for 1 hour before and after 6 bulbs on for 8 hours.

[jda]

You probably know that my normal response to folks who are having color or growth issues is to stop interfering altogether with the tank and let nature take over in almost a full-Berlin type of fashion. Is there any very specific reason that you are carbon dosing, using GFO or supplementing? Unless there is a very specific reason on a very established tank, this type of interference usually is not as good as doing nothing.

For example, some people with 4-5 year old tanks might add some zeo elements just before photo-shoot time to get the contrast up in their acropora (by killing some zoox)... or they want to lighten up the colors... or they want P down to nearly nothing to encourage a quick growth spurt.

My advice is to wean the tank off of all of the additives, organic carbon and GFO, let the anoxic bacteria continue to work, let the aragonite continue to bind the P in between water change exports and see what happens. I would also suggest to do some larger water changes - get some IO salt, mix a whole bag of it at a time in a 44G brute with 2 tbsp of dowflake, wait a day and add 20mls of muratic acid (after the prior is mixed thoroughly) and then aerate it for a day or two to get the PH back up - this is a really good acropora recipe for salt mix. This could eliminate the blue bucket as a variable even though I doubt that it is the problem. Do you have room for a small fuge with a bit of macro?

IMO, the chances of the light being the problem are slim and none and Slim just left the room.

[reefmutt]

8 inches for a 6 bulb ati over a 50g tank isn’t particularly high.. that is solid lighting.
I have always seen slow to no corraline growth in low nutrient systems..
I have also seen aminos cause that brown slimy stuff.
So kalk is your ca/alk maintenance system?
Really seems like your issue is low nutrients..
More fish seems like a good idea to me..
Maybe try reducing full lighting to 6 hours and dawn dusk to 4?
How much of a wc and how often do you do them?

[Bill Nye]

Thank you for the replies.

I'm just going to bullet my response to keep things concise.

1) I don't dose any carbon source in my tank and nitrates stay at 0 despite adding more feedings and dosing AA. Its a bare bottom tank with 1 liter of matrix in the sump so nothing fancy. The reason I started dosing the nutrients was that my nitrate was 0 and my growth was slow.

2) I started using GFO because after my tank crashed my phosphates were at .3. Once they decreased back to normal I just kept using it. I think when I moved the tank and got rid of the sand most of the phosphates were removed and the remaining phosphates in the rock have been drawn out by the GFO use. This Sunday I am going to remove my GFO and see what happens.

3) I can stop using the additives but I think I will end up at the same situation I was in before with extremely slow growth. The only thing I've changed really is adding nutrients and this seems to have increased my growth significantly. I am going to stop them though and see if there is any change.

4) I do a 10 percent water change once a week. I could easily increase this if you think it will make a difference. I am thinking of changing my salt to Aquaforest to see if there is any difference.

5) Right now all I use is weak Kalk solution to keep it steady. I have seen an increase in the usage but its not very impressive to say the least. I will try to lower my lighting period to see if that helps. Will this significantly affect my kalk consumption, wondering if I will see it start to creep up with less light.

[reefmutt]

Like jda expressed, reducing light is kind of a long shot.. but if the corals are photo inhibited, reducing photoperiod should increase demand for kalk as they grow a bit better.
I also agree with trying some larger wcs for a while.. maybe a few 30%. Jus to refresh the whole volume of water in the system..
I have no experience with the Dow flake and muriatic acid recipe- sounds good but I’ve never done it.
Stopping gfo certainly makes sense as well, at this point.
And I still think another fish in there may help..

[ryshark]

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

Thanks again for the info Jda.

My big three are in line. Calc - 420, kH - 7.3-7.4 and mg 1450.

Some other weird things about my tank:

1) Coralline algae growth is slow. Its started to pick up as I've increased my kalk dosage but for a tank that has been set up for 2 years it's pathetic.

2) No green algae has ever grown in the tank even when it crashed and I ignored it for a couple months other than top off and feeding the fish. The only thing I get is brown slime algae/bacteria and fuzzy brown algae that grows on the glass.

Could this be due to low pH? I checked my pH recently and it was 7.8 with low saturation kalk solution.

There has been nothing I can do that will raise nitrates. I am gonna add some more fish and see where things go. I'd rather carbon dose and decrease nitrate than sit at 0 since it seems its not enough to support good color.

I check my salinity every week with a hydrometer and calibrate with saline solution. I bought it two years ago so perhaps it could be wrong now?

You use a hydrometer not a refractometer? Is your calibration solution also 2-years old? That was my problem once when I started losing color in my acros. My calibration solution was old and must have evaporated a bit or something, which caused my readings to be wrong because I wasn't calibrating the refractometer properly. It turned out my SG was actually 1.029.

[Bill Nye]

Originally Posted by ryshark

You use a hydrometer not a refractometer? Is your calibration solution also 2-years old? That was my problem once when I started losing color in my acros. My calibration solution was old and must have evaporated a bit or something, which caused my readings to be wrong because I wasn't calibrating the refractometer properly. It turned out my SG was actually 1.029.

Sorry should have said refractometer. Ya my solution is old. I am gonna order some today and see if thats the issue. Thanks for the info.

[slavetonet]

Bill,
Get your NPK levels to optimum level.
NO3 - 2.5ppm
PO4 - 0.03ppm
K - 420ppm

Then add vitamins, fatty acids, amino acids ( Your N and P can come from the AA )
All these will give you the colours and growth you are seeking from.

Providing you have the trace elements topped up.
Hope that helps. Cheers Kevin

[ryshark]

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

Sorry should have said refractometer. Ya my solution is old. I am gonna order some today and see if thats the issue. Thanks for the info.

Let me know what happens when the new solution arrives. Hopefully it's as simple as that.

[Wiskey]

I struggled with the same issues when I took the sand out of my system, I put some back and now everything is coming back around. I know some people keep BB systems with great success but I have never had the hang of it, I've always been much more successful with a buffer of about 1/2" oothlic sand on the bottom of my tank.

I do syphon about half of it every 4 months or so to prevent too much buildup.

Whiskey