Bleach vs Acid

[billyWhite]

I just did my first acid wash and I have a quick question/concern.

About 25% of the rocks I placed in were definitely live rock. These are the rocks that got super bleach white when I bleached them. When I put them in the acid, these rocks seemed to react the most - they were bubbling like crazy, and I could tell they were getting thinner and holes were being created in the already-thin parts.

The other 75% I purchased as base rock. These were the rocks that I saw very little effect from the bleach, and these seem to be doing almost nothing in the acid. The coraline and little white tube worms are gone for sure, but the rock seemed to not be effected at all.

Not a big deal, I guess, but I'm still curious. Is this expected? Does it just depend on the composition of the rocks? Also, could this somehow be any indication that the rocks aren't very well suited for my aquarium?

[therealfatman]

Carbonate and buicarbonate based rocks effervesse (bubble) when acid is applied to their surfaces. This means Lime, chalk, dolomote lime, calcium carbonate (arragonite), stoney coral skeletons, and marble will bubble. There are also many other rocks containing differing amounts of carbonates. Granite, silica and silca based rocks such as quartz will not bubble.

In general people tend to limit their rocks in their reef tanks to carbonate rocks, although there are many rocks that are safe to use. However, geology is not a widely studied area so the assistance in rock identification by geologists is less common than merely doing a vinegar or hydrochloric acid test for bubbling.

It is not safe to say a rock came out of the ocean so it is safe to use in an aquarium. An ocean is a huge water reservi oirs that can turn the unsafe minerals and chemicals into a very small problem due to the oceans huge water volume. Hence the saying the solution to pollution is dilution. Even saying life forms were living on the rock is not a safe method as nature produces a lot of lifeforms that live in the ocean under very toxic conditions. An example are life forms that only live around the edges of ocean bottom volcano vents where sulphur plumes are nearly continous emitted. (extreme example)

[bertoni]

It sounds to me as if the "base rock" isn't live rock at all. You could try chipping a piece off. Live rock will will dissolve in vinegar, producing carbon dioxide bubbles.

[eros]

I just put some of my dead live rock in Vinegar. Do I have to worry about it dissolving? I put it in there a few hours ago.

[therealfatman]

Te process is quite slow with diluted vinegar and the effective cleaning/dissolving time is directly related to the amount of venegar you used. Did you dilute it in water or use it full strength? The live rock is supposed to bubble. If it is bubbling it is slowly dissolving. It is the surface that dissolves, it will not turn softa as a whole and then turn to mush all at once. The surface will just slowly fizz away. The more the vinegar is diluted the slower the process.

[Oshkosh]

For a house hold bleach washing/soaking could you use Peroxide to neutralize the hypochlorite? Any residual effects and what ratio and how long would you need to soak it for?

[Hammsreefbeer]

hey guys,
a little update and question.Ive just finish a 6 1/2 cycle and all is good test,ammonia 0,no2 0,no3 10.im going to test po4 now but wanted to get this out real quick ill LYK what po4 is.all test were done with API.
Im starting to peg it now and getting my aquascape done.Now my question is,,,How much can i put in at one time?Im thinking about putting 1/2 now and 1/2 tomorrow night as long as testing turns out good.I do have 15 or so sps frags that are growing good and have been in the display from 6-2 months.LMK if you want me to post tank parameters or not but tested on the 8th and are all good.
If you have any questions or comments please let me know.
thank you.

ps...ill post update pics after aquascaping is done.

[therealfatman]

Originally posted by Oshkosh
For a house hold bleach washing/soaking could you use Peroxide to neutralize the hypochlorite? Any residual effects and what ratio and how long would you need to soak it for?

Yes, it will work but it ends up as one of those do it and run reactions. Chemisits would say a quite violent reaction. The end result would be table salt (NaCl) + Water (H2O) + Oxygen (O2 gas). Not as neat as adding Chlorine gas to elemental sodium but still an impressive reaction. Elemental sodium is a nearly solid mass that is shiny silver and it and chlorine form an immense near blinding flash when they come into contact with the results being table salt.

I can not begin to predict your reaction when the concentrations are not known but the reaction will be quick enough and obvios enough to allow you to know when it is complete ie., no more oxygen being released then the reaction is over.

[bertoni]

I'd stick to Prime or Amquel, rather than trying vinegar or peroxide. They'll do the job and don't product dangerous byproducts.

[Oshkosh]

Originally posted by therealfatman
Yes, it will work but it ends up as one of those do it and run reactions. Chemisits would say a quite violent reaction. The end result would be table salt (NaCl) + Water (H2O) + Oxygen (O2 gas). Not as neat as adding Chlorine gas to elemental sodium but still an impressive reaction. Elemental sodium is a nearly solid mass that is shiny silver and it and chlorine form an immense near blinding flash when they come into contact with the results being table salt.

I can not begin to predict your reaction when the concentrations are not known but the reaction will be quick enough and obvios enough to allow you to know when it is complete ie., no more oxygen being released then the reaction is over.

I think your right bertoni, I better stick with Prime. However, it's very tempting to witness the "immense near blinding flash " that therealfatman states when MY SON places the rock in the peroxide bath...lol

[bertoni]

The flash would require metallic sodium, but in general, don't post anything you don't want to appear in court.

[therealfatman]

Elemental sodium is metallic sodium! Sodium, symbol Na, highly reactive, silvery-white, extremely soft metallic element. In group 1 (or Ia) of the periodic table, sodium is one of the alkali metals. The atomic number of sodium is 11. Sodium is so soft that it has a Mohrs hardness of 0.4. That is why I said nearly solid. It is about as soft as a soft cheese and can be cut with a popsicle stick, definitely with any metal knife blade to include a butter knife.

There is nothing in my post that is not widely posted all over the web. The sodium/chlorine (gas) reaction is even performed regularly in chemistry lab demonstraions for grade school through college level students.

The man asked a simple question and he was given a simple answer.

As far as the blinding flash aspect of sodium chloride/chlorine (gas) it is very very doubtful that the general public have access to chlorine gas or elemental sodium. I can not believe any firm that sells either would sell either to the general public. I doubt that it is even legal for either to be sold to the general public.

[therealfatman]

The cost of using Amquel would be quite high if you used much chlorine at all. Sodium Thiosulfate is readily avialable in bulk in a granular for. It has a long shelf life in a granular form. To neutralize one gallon of a 200 ppm chlorine solution, approximately 1.5 - 5.3 grams would be required.

Here it is available for $15 for 5 pounds. Thats a lot of dechlorination.

http://www.wchemical.com/SODIUM-THIOSULFATE-P51C9.aspx

[bertoni]

Sodium thiosulfate would be cheaper in bulk.

I was making a joke about him having his son dump the rock into the peroxide.

[therealfatman]

Bertoni
Sorry, I just felt this emotion I equate to having just been slapped on the wrist with a ruler. Almost 60 years old and still do not know how to deal with that emotion.

[gwenvet]

Just checking in to see how everyones rock turned out and weather or not there were any problems when adding the rock to the DT.
I have been soooooo slow that my rock is still in water in my basement. I just dechlorinated it and added salt water and a cup of live sand. Am I right to assume that it needs a heater? How often do I need to do water changes before adding it to the DT?

[Hammsreefbeer]

damn,your way behind.forget about the sand and get some LR from a local reefer to seed it.i let it seed for about 6 weeks before i put it back in my DT.the big thing is to watch the cycle.ammonia,no2,no3 then when your po4 is at its lowest slowly put it back in the DT.Ill post pics,i pegged my rock before putting it back and im very happy w/ the way it turned out.good luck.

if you dont have a skimmer you can hook up to it then id do small WC's like twice aweek.

[crharvel]

Good thread with some good tips... just missing photos!

I did a hundred or so pounds of a mix of dried out fiji and marco rocks. Did two rounds of a 10:1 bleach solution 48 hours each soak with a good swishing between rounds. Used Prime to dechlorinate for another four days and another three days of airdry.

Before:



This was the remains of all the organics that oxidized out (ewww...) :



After:

[Hammsreefbeer]

update pics......before..[IMG][/IMG]

after.....[IMG][/IMG]
cant realy see the rock but this is what i have.after shot is less 60 lbs of LR in the DT.

[Hammsreefbeer]

ill get some better pics later.thanx

[gwenvet]

That's some really nice rock Chad. After all this work all mine wasn't worth the $100 I paid for it!

[therealfatman]

Where I live base rock that is quite plain and just ovoid in shape still sells for $8 per pound without even any signs of coraline algae on it. Quality base rock is about $15 per pound. Aragonite sand is $45 for a 20 pound bag and there is nor aragonite sugar sand available most of the year.

[crharvel]

Originally posted by therealfatman
Where I live base rock that is quite plain and just ovoid in shape still sells for $8 per pound without even any signs of coraline algae on it. Quality base rock is about $15 per pound. Aragonite sand is $45 for a 20 pound bag and there is nor aragonite sugar sand available most of the year.

Wow... guess the fed ex and ups folks know you well. Supporting the LFS is tough when the mark ups are that high.

[therealfatman]

I try to avoid the UPS and FEDEX folks but not many retailers or wholesalers will ship by airport to airport freight. Pretty much only The Florida live rock aquaculturists an some salers that sell full boxes of rock straight from overseas. To where I live FEDEX and UPS charge about four times what it costs for airport to airport freight. Needlees to say I do not buy less than 100 pounds at a time and order only from salers that will ship airport to airport. Airport to airport charges for a minmum of 100 pounds then by pound over 100 pounds.

[bheron]

Great pics chad. And gwenvet good call for an update.

I'm in the same situation - its been a Loooooooong process b/c of other things ive got going on. But here's what I did:

- soaked in a 10:1 solution of bleach and RODI about a week
- swished in clean RODI and air dried for a few days in the sun
- dipped in a soluiton of RODI and Muraitic Acid! Maybe a 10:1 ratio?
- swished in clean RODI
- let is sit for a few weeks in RODI (like 4-5 weeks)

The whole acid process was crazy! Things bubbled and bubbled and I guess some bad stuff came off the rock, along with some good stuff. The idea was to remove a layer of phosphate, I think. Anyway, alot of gunk in the bottom afterwards.

It was sitting in the RODI for so long that I finally decided to check the water for chlorine - no detection. My next step is to put it in a container of water directly from my DT to see if the key parameters change, notable PH.

Why are you all seeding your new rock seperate from the DT? Is there a concern? I was going to plop it right in the DT as base rock and let the existing LR seed it. No?