Pairing Clownfish

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by JHardman
You should be fine with the 40g. The place you got them from likely had them in a 20g cube before they sold them to you. The important part is being able to keep the water parameters up, which you should be able to do with 60g volume, all that LR you have in the sump and a good skimmer.

Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

[Amphiprionclarkii]

I finally caved in and got another perc at the LFS like I was wanting to do. We (including the guys at the LFS) were all nervous about whether or not my clown would kill the newcomer. Anyway, I got a very small (1" at most) perc and brought it home. As soon as I let it out of the bag, he swam over to the female and there wasn't the slightest sign of agression. They both got into the same host on the first day! JHardman, I salute you for this thread!

A. clarkii

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

[moorediddy]

Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

Well, The rug is almost dry and sleeping on the couch is getting a little better, but the really good news is that Jaws and Jawsette are both looking ok and now both are eating- even flake. This might still work out.
I'm putting out a book on my new method of water changes, but my publisher says that it won't be a big seller with the spousal population...

Tagamet.
PS Guess what! We go away for soccer AGAIN this weekend. Be still my heart. I can only guess what I'll come home to this time (g)
PPS Hotel beds are softer than couches.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by moorediddy
Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

I am assuming that you are under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, which is incorrect. Read the "sexing clownfish" link in the first post of this thread for the details.

If I am wrong in my assumption... Yes if you place two males in the same tank, one will establish dominance and become female.

[moorediddy]

I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

[JHardman]

Originally posted by moorediddy
I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

Unless your LFS is buying just the male half of an established pairing or are splitting pairs when they come in, then you are buying sexless fish just like everyone else. Assuming they are all in a community tank and <2" you can safely assume they are all sexless and not physically mature enough to even change yet. Worst case is that one fish has ruled the herd long enough to become female, but that is very rare and would take an exceptional fish to totally dominate a large group of fish long enough to mature and become male then female.

No it is not a stupid question at all. You were going on what the LFS said, which is highly doubtful. They are likely under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, like many LFS out there. Or they think that at a certain age/size they change sex, which is also incorrect. I would like to know how they think they are sexing the clownfish. They only way to know 100% for sure if one fish is a male or a female is to see them spawn and lay eggs or produce sperm. In an established pair you can safely assume 99% of the time that one is male and the other is female. But with a large group of clowns in a community tank at the LFS, it is VERY VERY unlikely you could assign a sex to any fish in there.

[KillerReef]

First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

[JHardman]

Originally posted by KillerReef
First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

Hi Dave

LA is wrong, and their breeder knows better. Those fish come from TCM in England and they know they are black A. ocellaris. The problem is most likely species name versus common name. Frankly most LFS wouldn’t know the difference between a species name and common name if it bit them in the ***.

Anyway at 2" your "it" is most likely a she now, especially if she came in as part of an existing bonded pair. You shouldn't have a problem pairing the black A. ocellaris with an A. percula.

[KillerReef]

Thanks for the quick reply, that is what I was hoping to hear. One last question, would I be better off paying the extra $10 to Etropicals to get their USA tank raised black clown , which they state as an A. Ocellaris BTW, or is it all the same?

[JohnM99]

I have 2 small clowns, bought from LFS from a tank with 30 or more originally, captive raised, which were a bit less than 1" when bought. One was very slightly larger than the other.

They have not fought much at all - occaisional dance of the smaller one chasing the larger - darting towards it only about 2-4 inches - no biting - the larger one looking a bit submissive. But, they swim together all day, and sleep close to each other at night.

I did notice that they both fed well at first, but in a couple of days the larger one did not feed as much as the smaller one - the smaller one was lively, and zipped around sampling everything - the larger one seemed to be a bit "inhibited" - it would start to swim towards a food particle, get close, and then stop - and not ingest it.

After 2 weeks, the larger one has resumed eating more vigorously - everything else seems fine, water test fine, etc.

My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

[JHardman]

Originally posted by JohnM99
My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

At this point neither have changed sex yet, they are not old enough.

It is hard to say if the feeding behavior is the result of acclimation stress or dominance issues. If the slightly smaller fish was competing for the food and the larger did not eat as a result, then yes you can safely assume it was a result of dominance behavior.

What you are using is a grow out technique since there is not a significant difference in size. With this technique the dominate fish will generally be the larger fish, but it is quite possible that the small will be dominate and sooner or later out grow the larger fish.

From what you describe they are still acting like they are in a large group with neither really getting after the relationship building. This will end sooner or later, likely when they are 110% comfortable with the new tank. It sounds like they are compatible, and you should have a good pair in a couple of months.

HTH

[MFish]

I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MFish
I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites, sexless to male to female on a one way trip, no going back.

So when you add a smaller fish to pair with your current fish, they will work out who is dominate (likely the larger) and the dominate fish will become male then rapidly female when old enough. The submissive fish will become male. The dominate fish will grow (depending on species) to be the larger of the pair.

HTH

[JHardman]

Here is another thread that shows an example of a successful pairing of an extremely aggressive female maroon. The keeper had a hard time, but with a little modification to the maroon separation technique, he was able to pair his fish.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=201433

[waligorar]

So far, I've read a lot about breeding, but nothing about what happens next. So, you get a pair of Occelaris to mate and have 100 baby clowns. What next? It sounds like you can't keep them, because they will eventually start to fight. So I assume the only option is to sell them back to the fish store. What other options are there? Also, what do you feed them? Flake food, or do most people raise food?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by waligorar
So far, I've read a lot about breeding, but nothing about what happens next. So, you get a pair of Occelaris to mate and have 100 baby clowns. What next? It sounds like you can't keep them, because they will eventually start to fight. So I assume the only option is to sell them back to the fish store. What other options are there? Also, what do you feed them? Flake food, or do most people raise food?

Your post would be most appropriate as a new thread. Would you report the question to the clownfish forum, and I will be glad to answer it. But it is off topic for this thread.

[yachtboy14]

hardmen you worte early that.........
In the short term yes it will work. In the long term, in a confined environment, it may result in problems. In the wild, clownfish form hierarchies with a mature breeding pair and lower ranking sexless fish. The lower ranking fish will try to promote themselves sooner or later. This is not a problem within the ranks of the sexless fish, however when a member of the breeding pair is challenged, the challenger will either succeed by driving off or killing it's rival, or it will fail in its challenge and be driven off or killed. And this is where it can become a problem in a confined tank environment, no place to be driven off to

but there are tanks that are combined together with a clear tube is it possb. to have a group of clowns in this type of tank where one of the fish could be run off to the other tank bc the groups terr. ends at the beg. of the tube

[kris4647]

I think what John is trying to say here is, this thread is meant to be informational in regards to general pairing issues/strategies with clownfish. It kinda muddies the waters if it grows to 10 pages of different questions regarding isolated or specific issues. Those questions are better posed in the general "anenomes and clownfish forum" as a seperate thread.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from joining this thread or being negative, just sharing an opinion. Having raised and paired many different types of clowns I can tell you it's one of the most rewarding, fascinating things I've ever done. Good Luck

[JHardman]

Originally posted by kris4647
I think what John is trying to say here is, this thread is meant to be informational in regards to general pairing issues/strategies with clownfish. It kinda muddies the waters if it grows to 10 pages of different questions regarding isolated or specific issues. Those questions are better posed in the general "anenomes and clownfish forum" as a seperate thread.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from joining this thread or being negative, just sharing an opinion. Having raised and paired many different types of clowns I can tell you it's one of the most rewarding, fascinating things I've ever done. Good Luck

Ditto.

In fact the "quote" is from another FAQ post on mixing clowns.

Just so people know, I will not reply to "off topic" questions in these FAQ posts. The last thing we need is another “Everything you ever wanted to know about South Down� type of run on post here in the clownfish FAQ posts. Like Kris has suggested, these last couple of questions should have either been asked in the main forum as a new post or in the thread in which the question directly applies to.

[reef fanatic]

great post and educational too

[yachtboy14]

hardmen you still have not said anything about what I said

[JHardman]

Originally posted by yachtboy14
hardmen you still have not said anything about what I said

That would be because it is off topic for this post and in fact from another FAQ post I made. If you would like an answer post it to the post your copied it from.

BTW, the name Hardman. If you are going to call me by my last name like some drill sargent yelling for a fool, at least get it right.

[jinnjia]

I am sorry, have a quick question here.
Can the female (maroon) turn into male ?
I should have read this great tread before I purchased the new maroon.

What happen is this, I have a single maroon in the tank, from the reading I understand she must be a female, but the problem is the new maroon I just got, is a little bigger and seems to be more dominating, so judging from this, will my old maroon eventually change its sex to male ? of course this is if they can get along together.

Thank you thank you~