Casper's health is declining - Page 3

melev · 02/13/2006, 05:34 PM

Thanks for chiming in Kevin. I'm going to keep updating this thread, and it will be mentioned at the end of the next reefcast as well, so listeners can remain up to date.

If you or anyone sees something that needs correcting, please chime in. When I get the meds from Lisa, I'm sure they'll be the right ones. I just need Casper to hang in there for the duration.

I mixed up 55g of saltwater overnight. I've got plenty of water change water ready to go, although I'll need to water it down slightly as sg is 1.027 (oops). I'll try bringing the hospital tank down to 1.018sg unless someone sees a problem with this.

I'm going to try feeding her a little mysis now.

DanU · 02/13/2006, 05:50 PM

How is she doing now Marc? Same, better or worse?

I have mixed feelings on the salinity. There are some that would argue that dropping the salinity has the potential for reduced uptake of the antibiotics. Lower salinity means the fish don't have to ingest as much water and as a consequence don't take in as much of the meds. On the other hand, lowered salinity can help with parasitic issues. Many of these would require you to bring it down to 1.011 to be effective. Hyposalinity treatments should be run for several weeks. I have given antibiotics under both scenarios and both seemed equally effective as far as treating infections.

Glad to see she is still eating, keeping nurishment in her is critical. You may also want to try to get some Beta Glucan in her as well. This can help boost her immune system and fight off the infection.

Don't forget, if you change meds to do a 100% water change before dosing.

Dan

melev · 02/13/2006, 06:04 PM

Dan, I just spent a little time watching her. She didn't seem interested in eating, especialy since I'm poking a small dropper her way to gently squirt some food her way. She's used to just chasing food that magically appears in her tank, after all.

Thanks for the advice when I change meds regarding the water. I needed to know that.

She's moving about the tank a little, and the damage on her tail looks about the same to me, not worse. She seems to breathe quietly. She may be eating some food off the base of the tank since she's leaning forward most of the time, and I'm not watching her non-stop. I think I saw her snicking a couple of times, and it looks like she's swallowing something.

I'll post a few pictures in a minute.

LisaD · 02/13/2006, 06:07 PM

Dan,

I sent Marc gentamycin, neomycin and triple sulfa from National Fish Pharmacy. Perhaps you or Keith or Diane can advise on proper dosage rate?

Marc,

Hope it gets there in time to help. Look for it around noon.

melev · 02/13/2006, 06:15 PM

Here is the picture of the new seahorse, in case you can tell me if it is a Kuda or reidi.

The following pictures were taken with a flash through green medicated water. I probably could try again if I adjust the white balance in my camera, so let me know if you need them retaken. I adjusted the levels in photoshop to clear the results somewhat.

Are these speckles airbubbles under the skin or some type of marking? I really can't tell at the moment.

DanU · 02/13/2006, 06:42 PM

The new seahorse looks like a kuda from the pic. I am concerned though as it looks as if I see discoloration in the tail. Is that indeed the case? If so, it is going to need treatment as well.

Glad to see the pic of the tail of the reidi. I would switch to the Neomycin and Triple Sulpha. As mentioned, you will need to do a 100% water change before administering. I would follow the label directions on the Triple Sulpha. I don't remember their exact directions for the Neomycin but I do recall it being under dosed by what we normally recommend. Each scoop (level 1/4 teaspoon) is approximately 400 mg. The dosage we suggest before was 250 mg/gal. So for a 10 gallon tank you will want to give 6 level scoops or 1.5 level teaspoons. This is a 10 day treatment protocol. After 24 hours, and each day thereafter, do a 50% water change and then give 1/2 of the original dosage.

When adding the frozen mysis, try to count how many you add. This way you can tell if she has eaten any. I would consider getting some very small ghost shrimp if you have them locally available and gut load them with Beta Glucan. Live foods are harder for them to resist.

Lisa, you are a great sport. Kudos to you for sending the meds.

Dan

melev · 02/13/2006, 07:08 PM

Thanks for the ID. It was supposed to be a reidi. Oh well. Yes, the very tip is white. I can move it over then.

Good tip on counting the mysis. The food I thawed today was uncharacteristically pulverized for some reason. Usually each one looks like a little tiny shrimp, so I must have gotten a corner of the mix from the package.

I'll check on getting some tiny ghost shrimp.

Thanks for the suggested dosage too. If Casper heals up, she's going to owe you a snick'd kiss for all your trouble.

LisaD · 02/14/2006, 08:48 AM

Dan, the meds I sent do not have a scoop - it is not SeaChem Sulfathiozole or Neoplex. but bulk powdered Neomycin and Triple Sulfa from National Fish Pharmacy in Arizona. Not sure if the activity is the same or not. I also sent Gentamycin in case the Neomycin/Sulfa combination doesn't do the job.

Quote:

Lisa, you are a great sport. Kudos to you for sending the meds.

Thanks Dan. With all Marc has done to further the reef hobby with his contributions on RC and his great website, it was the least I could do.

Marc, the Gentamycin should not be used in conjunction with the other two antibiotics. I sent it as a possible "plan B".

DanU · 02/14/2006, 08:54 AM

Thanks Lisa! Dosages were based on their meds.

Marc, a level scoop is equal to a level 1/4 teaspoon of the powder.

Dan

LisaD · 02/14/2006, 09:05 AM

BTW, IME the bad tail is treatable, more so at the stage the new horse has than with Casper. it is very critical to do the water changes (and replace meds with change water), keep up the full course, and keep water quality high. the lower temps help, really. I defer to Dan here, but sometimes IME it required more than one full course of antibiotic treatment.

melev · 02/14/2006, 11:38 AM

So you are saying I should have my hands full for a while.

Once the meds arrive (it's 11:35am here), I'll reread what Dan posted and what the packages say to make sure I understand it.

Casper is in the corner of the tank breathing slowly, almost like she's still sleeping. The light over her tank comes on at noon each day, so this isn't unusual although the ambient room lighting is pretty bright right now. I'll do the water change before I try the new meds.

Speaking of which - should I pull casper out in a small container of the water (like a specimen box full), then drain the tank completely and refill? I could then reacclimate her to the newer water. I'm not sure what you meant by 100% water change with her still in the tank.

Btw, I hope this thread helps others in the future, as they read how all of this was accomplished.

LisaD · 02/14/2006, 11:42 AM

yes, unfortunately, you will have your hands full. my tanks are very low maintenance when all is well, but if I am going to heroic efforts to save a fish, the work seems to ramp up exponentially.

Quote:

Speaking of which - should I pull casper out in a small container of the water (like a specimen box full), then drain the tank completely and refill? I could then reacclimate her to the newer water. I'm not sure what you meant by 100% water change with her still in the tank.

This is what I do when a 100 percent water change is called for, when switching medications or trying to outrun/dilute a parasite.

I'll PM you the track number for the meds.

melev · 02/14/2006, 11:56 AM

One more question, semi-related. How do you keep your equipment clean to avoid cross contamination - pH probe, pipette for refractometer, thermometer probe, etc?

Soak everything in vinegar?

LisaD · 02/14/2006, 12:06 PM

I have separate siphon hoses, buckets (for newly mixed vs. taken out water) and hydrometers. I'm not sure vinegar would do the trick, maybe an overnight soak in 10 percent Chlorox, then a thorough freshwater rinse.

melev · 02/14/2006, 12:18 PM

Wouldn't that damage the pH probe? I was just thinking stuff that I have to use from tank to tank should have a soak in something, to avoid introduce meds into the other tanks, or disease.

Btw, I should have asked this earlier - if Casper and the other horse have Vibrio, what does that say about the water quality in their tank? Does that tank need to run fallow for a while? And how did I not think to ask this sooner?

NanoLurker · 02/14/2006, 12:20 PM

ahhhhh, a subject dear to my heart - avoiding cross contamination! just remember, i'm fighting a protozoa infestation and can't afford to let one of those little beasts get out of my QT tanks. also, cross contamination is something i deal with at work and get paid to avoid so i probably go way overboard.

i admit i'm weird and a glutton for punishment, i usually set up two identical QT tanks. one is the current treatment tank, the second the backup emergency tank. if i need to switch meds or tanks for any reason i simply transfer horse from one to the other then scrub down, sterilize with bleach, and set it back up.

as far as the pH probe is concerned i use those plastic 1 oz. condiment cups. my probe never goes from tank to tank directly, if i have to use several condiment cups so be it, i never dip the same cup in any tank twice. i also use them for the refractometer pipette. you can throw them in a container with bleach and sterilize them for reuse.

edit: i have duplicate/triplicate hoses like lisa and they get sterilized in between treatments as well. to me, hose is cheap and when in doubt i'll throw it away and replace with new.

LisaD · 02/14/2006, 12:35 PM

It might damage the probe - I am low tech with pH test kits, and my pH is usually right on, so I don't test it much.

many people believe in letting a tank with Vibrio lie fallow. however, infection with Vibrio seems to vary with individuals, even in the same tank. the safe thing would be to let it lie fallow, with hyposalinity if possible.

DanU · 02/14/2006, 12:43 PM

Nano's suggestion with the condiment cups is a very easy way to prevent cross-contamination. The more tanks you have, the more this method makes sense. All your basic parameters can be tested this way.

Dan

melev · 02/14/2006, 01:12 PM

Lisa, the meds arrived. Thanks.

I just did a 100% water change, after putting Casper in a bag with her green-tinted water. Of course the make-up water was too warm, so I have a bunch of icepacks floating to get it down near what it was. It is 72.2F. Sg 1.023

pH was 7.0 in the mixing barrel, which isn't unusual when it is full like that. One day I'll figure out a way to aerate the barrel. I added some pH booster to the tank, and it was 8.6 instantly. argh. I waited a bit, and it didn't drop. So I added a little vinegar. 5.6! Back to the booster again, adding a tiny bit at a time, mixing and watching, and finally got it to 7.6 I'm going to leave it alone now.

The whole time, Casper's been floating in the bag dealing with my mad scientist situation. I just opened it up and added a small amount of the water from the tank. I'll do this for the next 20 minutes, then release her. I better float the Kuda as well, so I can release them together.

Now I have to reread the posts to figure out the new medication.

melev · 02/14/2006, 01:30 PM

Here are some images. The meds that arrived, plus my Beta Glucin.

The LFS called and my ghost shrimp are ready to pick up. I'm planning on putting them in a goldfish bowl with fresh water (and Prime), an airstone, and that's it. Right? I never keep freshwater anything, so I'm having to figure all of this out at once. I assume I can sprinkle in some flake food and the beta glucin, or maybe a few pellets. That will get them to eat the vitamin before Casper can eat them, right?

Here's the 100% water change.

It's amazing how much waste was on the bottom of the tank. You don't see it until you siphon. I was looking for obvious chunks, not the light dusting that was siphoned up.

Then trying to cool the water to 72F.

So I just have to figure out the dosages now. Dan suggested 1.5 teaspoons of Triple Sulfa and 1.5 teaspoons of Neomycin Sulfate.

NanoLurker · 02/14/2006, 01:37 PM

marc,

the 1.5 tsp for NFP's neomycin is right, i believe the triple sulfa dosage you listed as 1.5 tsp is too much. check with dan but i believe it should be dosed per label.

as for the ghost shrimp they should be fine that way, they're little jumpers though so i suggest covering the top.

melev · 02/14/2006, 01:44 PM

Good catch! Glad I didn't do anything yet!

Okay, Triple Sulfa 1/4 tsp. Neomycin 1.5 tsp. Got it - and will go mix it up now, unless I'm told I got it wrong again.

DanU · 02/14/2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Okay, Triple Sulfa 1/4 tsp. Neomycin 1.5 tsp. Got it - and will go mix it up now, unless I'm told I got it wrong again.

That would be correct.

Don't forget, when adding the ghost shrimp, to count how many so you will know what is being ingested. Just helpful in case you are wondering if they are eating.

Dan

melev · 02/14/2006, 01:53 PM

Okay, off to mix it up.

NanoLurker · 02/14/2006, 01:58 PM

the ghost shrimp will eat almost anything, cyclopeeze, spirulina, etc. i gut load them pretty good before feeding to the horses.

helpful hint - put your blue ice/etc. in zip loc bags. keeps them clean and if you need to use them in another tank just put them in fresh zip locs.

02/13/2006, 06:07 PM	#54
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	Dan, I sent Marc gentamycin, neomycin and triple sulfa from National Fish Pharmacy. Perhaps you or Keith or Diane can advise on proper dosage rate? Marc, Hope it gets there in time to help. Look for it around noon. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/14/2006, 09:05 AM	#60
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	BTW, IME the bad tail is treatable, more so at the stage the new horse has than with Casper. it is very critical to do the water changes (and replace meds with change water), keep up the full course, and keep water quality high. the lower temps help, really. I defer to Dan here, but sometimes IME it required more than one full course of antibiotic treatment. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/14/2006, 12:06 PM	#64
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	I have separate siphon hoses, buckets (for newly mixed vs. taken out water) and hydrometers. I'm not sure vinegar would do the trick, maybe an overnight soak in 10 percent Chlorox, then a thorough freshwater rinse. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/14/2006, 12:20 PM	#66
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	ahhhhh, a subject dear to my heart - avoiding cross contamination! just remember, i'm fighting a protozoa infestation and can't afford to let one of those little beasts get out of my QT tanks. also, cross contamination is something i deal with at work and get paid to avoid so i probably go way overboard. i admit i'm weird and a glutton for punishment, i usually set up two identical QT tanks. one is the current treatment tank, the second the backup emergency tank. if i need to switch meds or tanks for any reason i simply transfer horse from one to the other then scrub down, sterilize with bleach, and set it back up. as far as the pH probe is concerned i use those plastic 1 oz. condiment cups. my probe never goes from tank to tank directly, if i have to use several condiment cups so be it, i never dip the same cup in any tank twice. i also use them for the refractometer pipette. you can throw them in a container with bleach and sterilize them for reuse. edit: i have duplicate/triplicate hoses like lisa and they get sterilized in between treatments as well. to me, hose is cheap and when in doubt i'll throw it away and replace with new. Last edited by NanoLurker; 02/14/2006 at 12:39 PM.

02/14/2006, 12:35 PM	#67
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	It might damage the probe - I am low tech with pH test kits, and my pH is usually right on, so I don't test it much. many people believe in letting a tank with Vibrio lie fallow. however, infection with Vibrio seems to vary with individuals, even in the same tank. the safe thing would be to let it lie fallow, with hyposalinity if possible. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/13/2006, 05:34 PM	#51
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks for chiming in Kevin. I'm going to keep updating this thread, and it will be mentioned at the end of the next reefcast as well, so listeners can remain up to date. If you or anyone sees something that needs correcting, please chime in. When I get the meds from Lisa, I'm sure they'll be the right ones. I just need Casper to hang in there for the duration. I mixed up 55g of saltwater overnight. I've got plenty of water change water ready to go, although I'll need to water it down slightly as sg is 1.027 (oops). I'll try bringing the hospital tank down to 1.018sg unless someone sees a problem with this. I'm going to try feeding her a little mysis now.

02/13/2006, 05:50 PM	#52
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	How is she doing now Marc? Same, better or worse? I have mixed feelings on the salinity. There are some that would argue that dropping the salinity has the potential for reduced uptake of the antibiotics. Lower salinity means the fish don't have to ingest as much water and as a consequence don't take in as much of the meds. On the other hand, lowered salinity can help with parasitic issues. Many of these would require you to bring it down to 1.011 to be effective. Hyposalinity treatments should be run for several weeks. I have given antibiotics under both scenarios and both seemed equally effective as far as treating infections. Glad to see she is still eating, keeping nurishment in her is critical. You may also want to try to get some Beta Glucan in her as well. This can help boost her immune system and fight off the infection. Don't forget, if you change meds to do a 100% water change before dosing. Dan

02/13/2006, 06:04 PM	#53
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Dan, I just spent a little time watching her. She didn't seem interested in eating, especialy since I'm poking a small dropper her way to gently squirt some food her way. She's used to just chasing food that magically appears in her tank, after all. Thanks for the advice when I change meds regarding the water. I needed to know that. She's moving about the tank a little, and the damage on her tail looks about the same to me, not worse. She seems to breathe quietly. She may be eating some food off the base of the tank since she's leaning forward most of the time, and I'm not watching her non-stop. I think I saw her snicking a couple of times, and it looks like she's swallowing something. I'll post a few pictures in a minute.

02/13/2006, 06:15 PM	#55
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Here is the picture of the new seahorse, in case you can tell me if it is a Kuda or reidi. The following pictures were taken with a flash through green medicated water. I probably could try again if I adjust the white balance in my camera, so let me know if you need them retaken. I adjusted the levels in photoshop to clear the results somewhat. Are these speckles airbubbles under the skin or some type of marking? I really can't tell at the moment.

02/13/2006, 06:42 PM	#56
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	The new seahorse looks like a kuda from the pic. I am concerned though as it looks as if I see discoloration in the tail. Is that indeed the case? If so, it is going to need treatment as well. Glad to see the pic of the tail of the reidi. I would switch to the Neomycin and Triple Sulpha. As mentioned, you will need to do a 100% water change before administering. I would follow the label directions on the Triple Sulpha. I don't remember their exact directions for the Neomycin but I do recall it being under dosed by what we normally recommend. Each scoop (level 1/4 teaspoon) is approximately 400 mg. The dosage we suggest before was 250 mg/gal. So for a 10 gallon tank you will want to give 6 level scoops or 1.5 level teaspoons. This is a 10 day treatment protocol. After 24 hours, and each day thereafter, do a 50% water change and then give 1/2 of the original dosage. When adding the frozen mysis, try to count how many you add. This way you can tell if she has eaten any. I would consider getting some very small ghost shrimp if you have them locally available and gut load them with Beta Glucan. Live foods are harder for them to resist. Lisa, you are a great sport. Kudos to you for sending the meds. Dan

02/13/2006, 07:08 PM	#57
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks for the ID. It was supposed to be a reidi. Oh well. Yes, the very tip is white. I can move it over then. Good tip on counting the mysis. The food I thawed today was uncharacteristically pulverized for some reason. Usually each one looks like a little tiny shrimp, so I must have gotten a corner of the mix from the package. I'll check on getting some tiny ghost shrimp. Thanks for the suggested dosage too. If Casper heals up, she's going to owe you a snick'd kiss for all your trouble.

02/14/2006, 08:54 AM	#59
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Thanks Lisa! Dosages were based on their meds. Marc, a level scoop is equal to a level 1/4 teaspoon of the powder. Dan

02/14/2006, 11:38 AM	#61
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	So you are saying I should have my hands full for a while. Once the meds arrive (it's 11:35am here), I'll reread what Dan posted and what the packages say to make sure I understand it. Casper is in the corner of the tank breathing slowly, almost like she's still sleeping. The light over her tank comes on at noon each day, so this isn't unusual although the ambient room lighting is pretty bright right now. I'll do the water change before I try the new meds. Speaking of which - should I pull casper out in a small container of the water (like a specimen box full), then drain the tank completely and refill? I could then reacclimate her to the newer water. I'm not sure what you meant by 100% water change with her still in the tank. Btw, I hope this thread helps others in the future, as they read how all of this was accomplished.

02/14/2006, 11:56 AM	#63
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	One more question, semi-related. How do you keep your equipment clean to avoid cross contamination - pH probe, pipette for refractometer, thermometer probe, etc? Soak everything in vinegar?

02/14/2006, 12:18 PM	#65
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Wouldn't that damage the pH probe? I was just thinking stuff that I have to use from tank to tank should have a soak in something, to avoid introduce meds into the other tanks, or disease. Btw, I should have asked this earlier - if Casper and the other horse have Vibrio, what does that say about the water quality in their tank? Does that tank need to run fallow for a while? And how did I not think to ask this sooner?

02/14/2006, 12:43 PM	#68
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Nano's suggestion with the condiment cups is a very easy way to prevent cross-contamination. The more tanks you have, the more this method makes sense. All your basic parameters can be tested this way. Dan

02/14/2006, 01:12 PM	#69
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Lisa, the meds arrived. Thanks. I just did a 100% water change, after putting Casper in a bag with her green-tinted water. Of course the make-up water was too warm, so I have a bunch of icepacks floating to get it down near what it was. It is 72.2F. Sg 1.023 pH was 7.0 in the mixing barrel, which isn't unusual when it is full like that. One day I'll figure out a way to aerate the barrel. I added some pH booster to the tank, and it was 8.6 instantly. argh. I waited a bit, and it didn't drop. So I added a little vinegar. 5.6! Back to the booster again, adding a tiny bit at a time, mixing and watching, and finally got it to 7.6 I'm going to leave it alone now. The whole time, Casper's been floating in the bag dealing with my mad scientist situation. I just opened it up and added a small amount of the water from the tank. I'll do this for the next 20 minutes, then release her. I better float the Kuda as well, so I can release them together. Now I have to reread the posts to figure out the new medication.

02/14/2006, 01:30 PM	#70
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Here are some images. The meds that arrived, plus my Beta Glucin. The LFS called and my ghost shrimp are ready to pick up. I'm planning on putting them in a goldfish bowl with fresh water (and Prime), an airstone, and that's it. Right? I never keep freshwater anything, so I'm having to figure all of this out at once. I assume I can sprinkle in some flake food and the beta glucin, or maybe a few pellets. That will get them to eat the vitamin before Casper can eat them, right? Here's the 100% water change. It's amazing how much waste was on the bottom of the tank. You don't see it until you siphon. I was looking for obvious chunks, not the light dusting that was siphoned up. Then trying to cool the water to 72F. So I just have to figure out the dosages now. Dan suggested 1.5 teaspoons of Triple Sulfa and 1.5 teaspoons of Neomycin Sulfate.

02/14/2006, 01:37 PM	#71
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	marc, the 1.5 tsp for NFP's neomycin is right, i believe the triple sulfa dosage you listed as 1.5 tsp is too much. check with dan but i believe it should be dosed per label. as for the ghost shrimp they should be fine that way, they're little jumpers though so i suggest covering the top.

02/14/2006, 01:44 PM	#72
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Good catch! Glad I didn't do anything yet! Okay, Triple Sulfa 1/4 tsp. Neomycin 1.5 tsp. Got it - and will go mix it up now, unless I'm told I got it wrong again.

02/14/2006, 01:53 PM	#74
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Okay, off to mix it up.

02/14/2006, 01:58 PM	#75
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	the ghost shrimp will eat almost anything, cyclopeeze, spirulina, etc. i gut load them pretty good before feeding to the horses. helpful hint - put your blue ice/etc. in zip loc bags. keeps them clean and if you need to use them in another tank just put them in fresh zip locs.