Casper's health is declining - Page 5

melev · 02/20/2006, 02:37 PM

Do any of you have any idea if this area can heal and regenerate a new tip perhaps? Or will she always be shorter now?

DanU · 02/20/2006, 02:42 PM

Possible to heal, yes. Although I can't say for sure, I am doubtful on regenerating a new tip. If you can bring her back to a healthy status, I suspect she will learn to adapt as many animals do.

Dan

melev · 02/20/2006, 03:01 PM

Darn. That's too bad. I'm hoping the end will at least look healthy one day. It still looks a little frayed to me.

When feeding yesterday, she really doesn't like mysis on the bottom of the tank, and prefers to chase it through the water. You'd think in her condition, she' be glad to get food that is easy to reach.

Wink · 02/20/2006, 04:33 PM

Just wanted to let you know I've been following along here and wishing you and your seahorses the best of luck.
Obviously you're doing something right.

melev · 02/20/2006, 06:08 PM

Thanks Vicky. Each time I look in the tank I keep watching for miracles, or at least good health.

Fredfish · 02/20/2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

When feeding yesterday, she really doesn't like mysis on the bottom of the tank, and prefers to chase it through the water. You'd think in her condition, she' be glad to get food that is easy to reach.

Seahorses seem to have a very strong preference for moving food. I suspect a large part of their vision is about motion detection.

I'm glad t hear that your horses are still alive and eating. As others have said, you have done a good job so far.

Fred

Manogr · 02/24/2006, 03:00 PM

Any news Marc ?

melev · 02/24/2006, 10:58 PM

At this point, both are still doing well, and eating several times per day. Casper's lost quite a lot of her tail, and Amanda (a DFWMAS member) recommended that I treat her tail with a topical medication, which I wasn't able to do today. I just got home and all the lights are out for the night. Also, the 10 days are elapsed so she recommended some other medications that I'll post in this thread later, and post some new pictures tomorrow so you can see how they look.

NanoLurker · 02/24/2006, 11:20 PM

keeping my fingers crossed. hikari bio-bandage is good as is wound control which is very hard to find. i've done washes using diluted betadyne and formalin as well (seperately not mixed). generally if the antibiotics no longer seem to be working after a full course you switch to a different "family". i've used baytril administered orally after a course of neomycin and triple sulfa.

good luck.

LisaD · 02/26/2006, 04:55 PM

when I have switched antibiotics, I have found gentamycin useful. the best way to decide what antibiotic to use would be to do a sensitivity test, but most hobbyists aren't set up for it.

Marc, if you want to give it a try, send me a PM and I might be able to set you up with a plate and some antibiotic disks. you take a swab from the infected area and plate on agar. then place antibiotic-soaked small filter paper disks (like the size that comes from a hole puncher) on the plate. if there is a zone of "clearing" (= no colony growth) then the bacteria is sensitive to that antibiotic. we use this method all the time in our insect culture labs when we have bacterial infections in the culture medium. only problem is, I'm not sure how to apply the method to saltwater pathogens, don't know what kind of medium to culture them on.

maybe we can figure something out. I would say that since the seahorses are still alive and eating, that the treatment has been somewhat effective. if not, I would have expected them to be dead by now. you may want to treat with the neo/sulfa combination another week or so.

good luck!

melev · 02/27/2006, 10:28 PM

Okay, life got busy and I just didn't have the time to continue to treat the tank medically as I'd been doing for the past two weeks. Friday it was raining, I had to go to work, and my car battery was dead. Once I got the car going, picked up a new battery and got to work late, I was stuck on the job a few extra hours as the job wouldn't dry due to high humidity. I finally got home with a migraine headache, and couldn't even feed my tanks as the lights had gone out in every tank.

Saturday was busy, but did a water change and fed several times that day. Sunday was busy, but I fed several times that day. Monday was busy, but I was able to feed several times per day, and am about to do another water change.

Btw, a 5g water change in a 10g tank is more like a 75% water change.

So how are the horses? The Kuda will eat the mysis right off the glass, lying on its side and sneaking up on each morsel like a snake. Wierd, but true. Casper has been swimming all over the tank, and was foraging through the plastic plant blades looking for any hidden mysis. I squirted more in the tank 15 minutes ago, and she swam through the plant to get to the food. Their appetite seems excellent. Her tail looks okay, considering what she's been through. She doesn't really seem to concerned that she's lost so much of it, and swims about even during water changes. She will rise and drop, swim frontwards and backwards, and her eyes are very active as she decides which mysis to eat next.

I never had the time to try the meds on her tail as Amanda recommended. And since I thought I was about to go that route, I stopped dosing any medication to the tank.

Temperature has been staying around 69 - 71F each day, and pH tends to be 7.8. Salinity should be 1.021sg, which I'll check when I do the water change in about an hour.

LisaD · 02/28/2006, 05:29 AM

Marc, I think I would continue with the neomycin/sulfa, at least for one more course. They are alive so it seems to be having some benefit.

melev · 02/28/2006, 05:15 PM

I'm almost out of neomycin now.

I'll call the LFS to see if more finally came in after all.

LisaD · 03/02/2006, 04:26 AM

I might have some more I could send you, or you could switch to gentamycin alone. This drug is much more powerful, so the dosage is less.

melev · 03/02/2006, 01:27 PM

At this point, I guess it would be good to ask how do I know when they are done or healthy. They eat, swim around, and seem fine to me. Casper is more active now than she was at the beginning of this process. Is it time for more pictures perhaps?

Tank temperature is 76F as the weather has warmed up. pH 8.0, salinity 1.020 sg.

If I'm going to use the gentamycin, then what dose are you recommending? What is labeled on the jar, or something less?

LisaD · 03/02/2006, 04:18 PM

what is labeled on the jar unless someone more knowledgeable pipes up. I forget what I dosed last time I used it. I'll try to find out.

melev · 03/02/2006, 11:36 PM

Here are some images from tonight. Slightly cleaned up in Photoshop to make it easier to see the horses. Overall, to the eye they look bright yellow and seem quite alert, and swim about especially when food hits the water. I feed two or three times a day, whenever they seem curious or beg.

Casper loves the bubbles. She'll lean her head against the air bubbler to get a massage, and then ride the bubbles upwards. If she sees food on the other side, she'll go through the bubbles, even as these lift her up and off target. She's also swimming around the fake plant looking for something, and sometimes occasionally will stay in it for whatever reason.

The Kuda - which I'm pretty sure is a male now - has a grayish tint to the tip of his tail. I still don't know if that is normal or if it is this tail rotting disease. So if you know one way or another, please say so.

Amanda sent me some meds in the mail to try (she's been helping me on the DFWMAS message board, with DanU watching along), but they've not arrived yet.

Morgandy · 03/03/2006, 07:58 AM

What a ride Marc! Casper has awesome character. I kept being afraid to look at the new posts for updates, in case one day it would be sad, sad news. HAPPILY, she and the other seem like they're going to make it. I love the bubble massage concept. Good going..I don't know how you keep up with everything you have going there with all the tanks and such!

WILDTHING · 03/03/2006, 09:01 AM

Marc, the tip of Caspers tail still looks a bit whiteish. If this is so (and not just me seeing something in the photo thats not really there)then I don't think the meds have cured her yet, probably slowed the progression down. She does look like she is feeling much better. Keep up the good work!!

colleen

LisaD · 03/03/2006, 09:23 AM

I think Colleen is right, a bit more treatment is called for. But it looks to me like Casper and company is largely out of the woods! Great work!

LisaD · 03/03/2006, 09:23 AM

BTW, the kuda still has tail rot, IMO.

melev · 03/03/2006, 01:32 PM

Dang. That is what I was afraid of. I wish I could just lower a dish of medicated jello in the tank, and insert their tails in it while they just stand there eating food out of the water.

krajacich · 03/03/2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Dang. That is what I was afraid of. I wish I could just lower a dish of medicated jello in the tank, and insert their tails in it while they just stand there eating food out of the water.

That's a very funny visual

Glad Casper & Co seem to be doing better.

melev · 03/08/2006, 12:02 PM

So here they are as of yesterday.

Still very excited to eat several times a day.

kenny77 · 03/08/2006, 01:50 PM

Marc I have a couple question about your seahorses.

What specie is Casper?

Isn't true that bubble can harm seahorse. How can it harm them and why casper love them even if they can harm him? Does it have to be with the size of the bubbles?

02/20/2006, 04:33 PM	#104
Wink Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Near Seattle, WA Posts: 179	Just wanted to let you know I've been following along here and wishing you and your seahorses the best of luck. Obviously you're doing something right. __________________ Vicky Current Tank Info: (2) 50g reefs, (2) 29g clowns, (2) 37g seahorses, 10 & 5g dwarf seahorse, several seahorse nurseries, 90g soft coral, 50 & 10g FW fish, f/w nurseries, cultures, etc

02/24/2006, 03:00 PM	#107
Manogr Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 46	Any news Marc ? __________________ Manogr

02/26/2006, 04:55 PM	#110
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	when I have switched antibiotics, I have found gentamycin useful. the best way to decide what antibiotic to use would be to do a sensitivity test, but most hobbyists aren't set up for it. Marc, if you want to give it a try, send me a PM and I might be able to set you up with a plate and some antibiotic disks. you take a swab from the infected area and plate on agar. then place antibiotic-soaked small filter paper disks (like the size that comes from a hole puncher) on the plate. if there is a zone of "clearing" (= no colony growth) then the bacteria is sensitive to that antibiotic. we use this method all the time in our insect culture labs when we have bacterial infections in the culture medium. only problem is, I'm not sure how to apply the method to saltwater pathogens, don't know what kind of medium to culture them on. maybe we can figure something out. I would say that since the seahorses are still alive and eating, that the treatment has been somewhat effective. if not, I would have expected them to be dead by now. you may want to treat with the neo/sulfa combination another week or so. good luck! __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/28/2006, 05:29 AM	#112
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	Marc, I think I would continue with the neomycin/sulfa, at least for one more course. They are alive so it seems to be having some benefit. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

03/02/2006, 04:26 AM	#114
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	I might have some more I could send you, or you could switch to gentamycin alone. This drug is much more powerful, so the dosage is less. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/20/2006, 02:37 PM	#101
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Do any of you have any idea if this area can heal and regenerate a new tip perhaps? Or will she always be shorter now?

02/20/2006, 02:42 PM	#102
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Possible to heal, yes. Although I can't say for sure, I am doubtful on regenerating a new tip. If you can bring her back to a healthy status, I suspect she will learn to adapt as many animals do. Dan

02/20/2006, 03:01 PM	#103
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Darn. That's too bad. I'm hoping the end will at least look healthy one day. It still looks a little frayed to me. When feeding yesterday, she really doesn't like mysis on the bottom of the tank, and prefers to chase it through the water. You'd think in her condition, she' be glad to get food that is easy to reach.

02/20/2006, 06:08 PM	#105
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks Vicky. Each time I look in the tank I keep watching for miracles, or at least good health.

02/24/2006, 10:58 PM	#108
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	At this point, both are still doing well, and eating several times per day. Casper's lost quite a lot of her tail, and Amanda (a DFWMAS member) recommended that I treat her tail with a topical medication, which I wasn't able to do today. I just got home and all the lights are out for the night. Also, the 10 days are elapsed so she recommended some other medications that I'll post in this thread later, and post some new pictures tomorrow so you can see how they look.

02/24/2006, 11:20 PM	#109
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	keeping my fingers crossed. hikari bio-bandage is good as is wound control which is very hard to find. i've done washes using diluted betadyne and formalin as well (seperately not mixed). generally if the antibiotics no longer seem to be working after a full course you switch to a different "family". i've used baytril administered orally after a course of neomycin and triple sulfa. good luck.

02/27/2006, 10:28 PM	#111
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Okay, life got busy and I just didn't have the time to continue to treat the tank medically as I'd been doing for the past two weeks. Friday it was raining, I had to go to work, and my car battery was dead. Once I got the car going, picked up a new battery and got to work late, I was stuck on the job a few extra hours as the job wouldn't dry due to high humidity. I finally got home with a migraine headache, and couldn't even feed my tanks as the lights had gone out in every tank. Saturday was busy, but did a water change and fed several times that day. Sunday was busy, but I fed several times that day. Monday was busy, but I was able to feed several times per day, and am about to do another water change. Btw, a 5g water change in a 10g tank is more like a 75% water change. So how are the horses? The Kuda will eat the mysis right off the glass, lying on its side and sneaking up on each morsel like a snake. Wierd, but true. Casper has been swimming all over the tank, and was foraging through the plastic plant blades looking for any hidden mysis. I squirted more in the tank 15 minutes ago, and she swam through the plant to get to the food. Their appetite seems excellent. Her tail looks okay, considering what she's been through. She doesn't really seem to concerned that she's lost so much of it, and swims about even during water changes. She will rise and drop, swim frontwards and backwards, and her eyes are very active as she decides which mysis to eat next. I never had the time to try the meds on her tail as Amanda recommended. And since I thought I was about to go that route, I stopped dosing any medication to the tank. Temperature has been staying around 69 - 71F each day, and pH tends to be 7.8. Salinity should be 1.021sg, which I'll check when I do the water change in about an hour.

02/28/2006, 05:15 PM	#113
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I'm almost out of neomycin now. I'll call the LFS to see if more finally came in after all.

03/02/2006, 01:27 PM	#115
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	At this point, I guess it would be good to ask how do I know when they are done or healthy. They eat, swim around, and seem fine to me. Casper is more active now than she was at the beginning of this process. Is it time for more pictures perhaps? Tank temperature is 76F as the weather has warmed up. pH 8.0, salinity 1.020 sg. If I'm going to use the gentamycin, then what dose are you recommending? What is labeled on the jar, or something less?

03/02/2006, 04:18 PM	#116
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	what is labeled on the jar unless someone more knowledgeable pipes up. I forget what I dosed last time I used it. I'll try to find out. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

03/02/2006, 11:36 PM	#117
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Here are some images from tonight. Slightly cleaned up in Photoshop to make it easier to see the horses. Overall, to the eye they look bright yellow and seem quite alert, and swim about especially when food hits the water. I feed two or three times a day, whenever they seem curious or beg. Casper loves the bubbles. She'll lean her head against the air bubbler to get a massage, and then ride the bubbles upwards. If she sees food on the other side, she'll go through the bubbles, even as these lift her up and off target. She's also swimming around the fake plant looking for something, and sometimes occasionally will stay in it for whatever reason. The Kuda - which I'm pretty sure is a male now - has a grayish tint to the tip of his tail. I still don't know if that is normal or if it is this tail rotting disease. So if you know one way or another, please say so. Amanda sent me some meds in the mail to try (she's been helping me on the DFWMAS message board, with DanU watching along), but they've not arrived yet.

03/03/2006, 07:58 AM	#118
Morgandy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 1,173	What a ride Marc! Casper has awesome character. I kept being afraid to look at the new posts for updates, in case one day it would be sad, sad news. HAPPILY, she and the other seem like they're going to make it. I love the bubble massage concept. Good going..I don't know how you keep up with everything you have going there with all the tanks and such! __________________ Amy. Current Tank Info: Numerous past tanks (down to nano now)

03/03/2006, 09:01 AM	#119
WILDTHING Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Churchville, Va Posts: 1,753	Marc, the tip of Caspers tail still looks a bit whiteish. If this is so (and not just me seeing something in the photo thats not really there)then I don't think the meds have cured her yet, probably slowed the progression down. She does look like she is feeling much better. Keep up the good work!! colleen

03/03/2006, 09:23 AM	#120
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	I think Colleen is right, a bit more treatment is called for. But it looks to me like Casper and company is largely out of the woods! Great work! __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

03/03/2006, 09:23 AM	#121
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	BTW, the kuda still has tail rot, IMO. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

03/03/2006, 01:32 PM	#122
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Dang. That is what I was afraid of. I wish I could just lower a dish of medicated jello in the tank, and insert their tails in it while they just stand there eating food out of the water.

03/08/2006, 12:02 PM	#124
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	So here they are as of yesterday. Still very excited to eat several times a day.

03/08/2006, 01:50 PM	#125
kenny77 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 2,792	Marc I have a couple question about your seahorses. What specie is Casper? Isn't true that bubble can harm seahorse. How can it harm them and why casper love them even if they can harm him? Does it have to be with the size of the bubbles? __________________ "There's plenty of water in the universe without life, but nowere is there life without water" - Sylvia A. Farle, Project Director Sustainable Seas Expedition Kenny Current Tank Info: 24g nano. 60 cube in progress