the secret to colorful,healthy corals....obvious to some,elusive to many

[sahin]

Reefin' Dude: I like to learn as much possible. So having given a brief outline of my tank etc, what should I do now? I am still having to utilise GFO. But dont get crazy readings like before. If I can eliminate most of the GFO usage that would be great!

What do you suggest? Better skimmer? Something else? Would be nice if you discuss alternatives? -Will help me as well as others.

Thanks.

[SantaMonica]

250 par? Wow that less than what I would have thought.

[88rxna]

I know my problem..my rock leaches P04. Why? I wish i knew. I have had to run GFO for the past year and still deal with it leaching. Direct result from buying a used setup and using the "live rock".
Here is the pic of my poor SPS and all the algae with it.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

250 par? Wow that less than what I would have thought.

I am basing this on my own experience, and measurements taken with a PAR meter of other reefers SPS tanks.

The chart below gives the saturation points for Acros and other corals.


The articles done by Dana Riddle show that with higher PAR some colours will intensify, but as a ball park guide, 250 is quite sufficient IMO. I am not saying that it is the maximum, but as a guide, one can start there and focus on their water quality etc.

Some acros will certainly exhibit better colour with higher PAR, but around 250 is quite sufficient I have found that usually that is plenty for good colour - as long as water quality is high etc and other parameters are spot on.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by 88rxna

I know my problem..my rock leaches P04. Why? I wish i knew. I have had to run GFO for the past year and still deal with it leaching. Direct result from buying a used setup and using the "live rock".
Here is the pic of my poor SPS and all the algae with it.

The used liverock explains it most likely. I think the issue I had is the same. I have since found out that my LFS takes in liverocks from tank breakdowns etc...who knows what crappy conditions those rocks came from...some of those rocks could even be from FOWLR systems which are usually phosphate filled...

Did you use old sand as well?

You could try a combo of manual removal and the use of a large CUC. I would also try and grow chaeto so that the uptake of PO4 is shifted to the Chaeto growing in a refugium and not the algae in your display. I would still continue use of the GFO as well.

Unless anyone else has something else to suggest, I am not sure what else can be done without doing something major like rock cooking...which I have done in the past...think I made a thread or post about it years ago.

[SantaMonica]

Just increase your exports, and phosphate will be pulled out slowly but surely.

[88rxna]

i have another 90LBS. of "used" live rock stored in a dry plastic tub. i thought about giving it a acid bath and curing it.
maybe i will search for a good read on how to do this. most of my corals are still frags so it will not be that big of a deal swapping over (although a major process)

almost forgot, the sand was new.

Just increase your exports, and phosphate will be pulled out slowly but surely.

i have been pulling P04 for a year. i thought it was done until the rock filled with algae. not sure how much longer i can deal with this!! lol

[Reefin' Dude]

Originally Posted by sahin

Mixture of liverock and Marco Key Largo rocks. The Marco rocks were treated beforehand for PO4 with LC and acid washing. I know the issue isnt these rocks.

Liverock: I think here is the issue...my LFS sold me crappy old phosphate laden rock.

you are probably right. if there seems to be more detritus showing up in your water changes, than you would think with the amount of feeding, then it would be coming from the LR. do not count out the Marco rock either. acid wash only removes the P from the LR that is dissolved away. it does not actually go after P. the P is just collateral damage from the the dissolution of the matrix. the amount of P that is actually in the rock will not show its head until the bacteria start back on it. if the rock is full of phosphates, than just dissolving the outer parts of the LR will just expose more phosphate laden LR. land based rock can have more P than LR. properly cured LR is the best. i thought i had a thread saved that discussed the phosphate content of various different mining areas for base rock. my initial look did not find it, it must be embedded in another thread. if i find it i will post it.

Originally Posted by sahin

I am basing this on my own experience, and measurements taken with a PAR meter of other reefers SPS tanks.

The chart below gives the saturation points for Acros and other corals.


The articles done by Dana Riddle show that with higher PAR some colours will intensify, but as a ball park guide, 250 is quite sufficient IMO. I am not saying that it is the maximum, but as a guide, one can start there and focus on their water quality etc.

Some acros will certainly exhibit better colour with higher PAR, but around 250 is quite sufficient I have found that usually that is plenty for good colour - as long as water quality is high etc and other parameters are spot on.

great chart. do you have a link to where the chart came from?

we do not need nearly the amount of light we are told. 250 PAR is plenty. the use of more and more PAR is to counter the affects of eutrophication. hermatypic corals have been found all the way down to 140m. the photosynthetic light level depths is at 200m.

G~

[88rxna]

Originally Posted by Reefin' Dude

you are probably right. if there seems to be more detritus showing up in your water changes, than you would think with the amount of feeding, then it would be coming from the LR. do not count out the Marco rock either. acid wash only removes the P from the LR that is dissolved away. it does not actually go after P. the P is just collateral damage from the the dissolution of the matrix. the amount of P that is actually in the rock will not show its head until the bacteria start back on it. if the rock is full of phosphates, than just dissolving the outer parts of the LR will just expose more phosphate laden LR. land based rock can have more P than LR. properly cured LR is the best. i thought i had a thread saved that discussed the phosphate content of various different mining areas for base rock. my initial look did not find it, it must be embedded in another thread. if i find it i will post it.

G~

i would love to see this thread. i am in search of a good read on how to get properly cured live rock. i have another 90LBS. of live rock i would love to swap out with my current rock. i read this page rock reincarnation
but i need a good read on how to properly cure it.

[MrineLfRlz]

Originally Posted by Reefin' Dude

more reefer logic. corals need an initial source of organic N and P. we have been "told" by some that waste products of algae will provide this to our corals, not completely the case. corals need to be fed heavily, only those that are worried about nutrients will tell you otherwise. the bigger question is what is going on with waste products from all of that feeding. the corals have developed a symbiotic relationship with the algae/bacteria within them. they tightly recycle N and P amongst themselves, but there still needs to be constant input of new N and P for the corals to get the process started and bring in new building materials. the reason being is because readily available inorganic N, P, and CO2 are not readily available on a healthy oligotrophic reef. if it was, then the algae/bacteria would not need to live inside the coral.

G~

You really are knowledgeable and thank you but everyone helping is showing off their success can you show us?
I along with others will love to see your setup and corals they have got to be beautiful!!!
Ok nevermind just saw your Current tank info what happened?

[sahin]

Originally Posted by MrineLfRlz

You really are knowledgeable and thank you but everyone helping is showing off their success can you show us?
I along with others will love to see your setup and corals they have got to be beautiful!!!
Ok nevermind just saw your Current tank info what happened?

Trust me, Reefin Dude knows his stuff. I know because I've been on this forum for the past 10 years. If I am not mistaken he has a LONG thread on another forum.

[sahin]

OK, I've been a member of RC for more than 10 years...Gee...time does fly....LOL.

Anyway, here is his thread: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6...ins-63881.html

Not sure if the link will come through...RC sometimes blocks other sites.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Reefin' Dude

you are probably right. if there seems to be more detritus showing up in your water changes, than you would think with the amount of feeding, then it would be coming from the LR. do not count out the Marco rock either. acid wash only removes the P from the LR that is dissolved away. it does not actually go after P. the P is just collateral damage from the the dissolution of the matrix. the amount of P that is actually in the rock will not show its head until the bacteria start back on it. if the rock is full of phosphates, than just dissolving the outer parts of the LR will just expose more phosphate laden LR. land based rock can have more P than LR. properly cured LR is the best. i thought i had a thread saved that discussed the phosphate content of various different mining areas for base rock. my initial look did not find it, it must be embedded in another thread. if i find it i will post it.



great chart. do you have a link to where the chart came from?

we do not need nearly the amount of light we are told. 250 PAR is plenty. the use of more and more PAR is to counter the affects of eutrophication. hermatypic corals have been found all the way down to 140m. the photosynthetic light level depths is at 200m.

G~

Hi, the reason I discounted the Marco rocks was that after LC and Acid bath treatment, I let the rocks sit in saltwater for many weeks and tested the PO4 level. It was about 0.01ppm or there about on my Hanna ULR. This was the lowest ever PO4 readings I got with any rocks. But, I can see your point that if I didnt let the bacteria work on the rocks long enough, perhaps it didnt get to the point where I would have seen much higher PO4 levels.

I wish I had setup this tank having cooked the rocks this way: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=485572

I used that method some years ago and it worked very well.

With regards to the PAR levels, I am in complete agreement (and it is my experience) that more PAR counters the effects of eutrophication.

As for the graph, I saved it some years ago, dont recall from where...but I have seen those numbers thrown around in one or two other articles...the actual chart linked in this thread is posted on a UK coral farmers website...but unfortunately he doesnt directly link the article source.

However, you can see more or less the same graph here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1

Scroll down right to the bottom, its table1 after the references.

[sahin]

The link for the graph I gave above has quite a few more data for many Acropora species us SPS junkies tend to keep...so worth having a look.

[MrineLfRlz]

Originally Posted by sahin

OK, I've been a member of RC for more than 10 years...Gee...time does fly....LOL.

Anyway, here is his thread: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6...ins-63881.html

Not sure if the link will come through...RC sometimes blocks other sites.

Thank you for the link im checking it out now i just wanted alittle more background i couldnt find much here.
Thanks again and please reefin' dude dont take any offense

[horseplay]

Originally Posted by 88rxna

How long did it take to see results?

About 1 month. Still not dark enough. My frogskin acro used to be a light green now it's darker but still not the dark green it supposed to have.

[Reefin' Dude]

Originally Posted by 88rxna

i would love to see this thread. i am in search of a good read on how to get properly cured live rock. i have another 90LBS. of live rock i would love to swap out with my current rock. i read this page rock reincarnation
but i need a good read on how to properly cure it.

still looking for the link. the link just showed the P concentrations of various mined aragonite sources. it was not an aquarium related source. it was more towards those in phosphate mining.

this is the "cooking"/purging thread here on RC. the unfortunate part is that it is a part of the archives and not active any more. i have not seen the thread you posted, more reading.

sahin- thank you for posting the link to my build thread.

letting the LR sit in saltwater should have gotten things going, but there is something that tends to be missed when cooking LR. the bacteria need to be fed. if you just put the acid washed LR in a bucket with a pump without any carbon/nitrogen source, then the bacteria will not be able to get going on the phosphates. they need resources. cooking works very well with fresh LR. LR that has some rotting organic material on it to feed the bacteria along with the P in the rock. even just a bit of sugar and ammonia dropped into the bucket will do wonders. if after the ammonia and sugar was added to the bucket you suddenly get detritus, then this would be a big indicator that the LR is still full of P. it will take very little. just to give the bacteria resources to get started. as long as you are just adding N and C compounds only the bacteria will only be getting the P from the LR.

MrineLfRlz- if you want to read more from the person who got me started on most of my research. do a search here for posts from Bomber. he really knew his stuff.

G~

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Reefin' Dude

do a search here for posts from Bomber. he really knew his stuff.

G~

How I miss Bomber...

Most of my Reefkeeping learning I did so learning from Bombers threads/posts.

10-12 years ago RC was quite a different place.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Reefin' Dude

if after the ammonia and sugar was added to the bucket you suddenly get detritus, then this would be a big indicator that the LR is still full of P. it will take very little. just to give the bacteria resources to get started. as long as you are just adding N and C compounds only the bacteria will only be getting the P from the LR.

G~

I did remove this one piece of Liverock that I kept in my sump...this piece was fairly small...BUT the amount of detritus that I would find underneath this piece was crazy! And it wasnt detritus settling under it from say the display...There were other pieces, but none would shed as much as this one piece.

I took that out some time ago and I think its what helped calm the phosphate issue somewhat. But I still have one or two smaller other pieces from the same source in the display.

Thanks for your responses.

[Big E]

Originally Posted by sahin

How I miss Bomber...

Most of my Reefkeeping learning I did so learning from Bombers threads/posts.

10-12 years ago RC was quite a different place.

Yup............a lot of good info was shared back then. Product marketing with myth-information has killed most of the common sense/ logic in this hobby.

The fundamentals have never changed.

There's still a lot of good info out there in forum form if you look for it.

[creefer01]

Originally Posted by Big E

Yup............a lot of good info was shared back then. Product marketing with myth-information has killed most of the common sense/ logic in this hobby.

The fundamentals have never changed.

There's still a lot of good info out there in forum form if you look for it.

I agree with this. I did a TON of reading here before I ever thought of starting a tank. I lurked for a long time. I do see that the nature of RC has changed in the last 5+ years, but as you suggest, search and you will find what you're looking for.

[RobbieMVFC]

Originally Posted by Nano sapiens

If one is already adding too much food, then yes, correct.

However, a minimum amount of organic phosphate and other nutrients must be regularly available to the corals and other organisms to sustain life processes, preferably a bit more for growth. Otherwise corals will slowly starve as their energy reserves are depleted.

Regular removal of substances that reduce to or contain 'waste products' (such as inorganic phosphate, nitrates, etc.) is what we need, so detritus should be regularly exported from the system.

Oh my.... I have trouble keeping blue/purple SPS in their colour.
They grow well but just the colour. all other colours are ok.
Using bio-pellets I have been feed the fish 3 times a day and feeding the corals once a day.
I never knew that overfeeding can/could effect colour.

I will drop down to feeding the fish 2 times a day and feeding the corals every other day .
PO4 is at 0.08 No3 at about .05-.10 ALK 7.5 Cal 410 Mag 1300(red sea test Kits)
Thank you!

[nicholasb]

Some people just get lucky, and do somthing that works so stick to it. A classic example is newyork steelo. He seem to think that calcium and carbonate buffer each other out, and if you add alk to a tank it won't rise, but stays the same. He clearly dosn't understand water chemisty, but has a great tank!!. With so may factors affecting a tank It is often hard to say why some tanks do better than others. The sea over a reef has 0.005ppm, below the range of a hobby test kit. Mr saltwater tank keeps his PO4 at 0.02. Any where below 0.03 is O.K. Randy Holmes Farley will tell you there is no advantage, to keping phosphates at sea water levels, but could it ever get to low. Could you ever suck out to much phosphate/nitrate?. I keep my P04at 0.1 and NO3 at 0.2/3. All corals are doing well but some loook better than others. I think is it difficult to have a truly mixed reef tank where every thing from all over the world is 100% healthy. Interseting research though.

[nicholasb]

G.F.O is good. Try rowa phos it is more consentrated so you need less. Bio pellits arethe only other option!!.

[JoelA7]

Well that's a thread. Thank you one and all. Certainly don't want to hijack this but the theory behind DSBs is that in the anaerobic depth the bacteria will "digest" NO3 to N2 and (if my memory isn't fried) CO2. At least the first part is right, in theory. I've read many posts and articles of tanks with DSBs 6-15 years old. Clearly these tanks are not being vacuumed to remove detritus. I'm partial to the fuller ecosystem the DSB provides. Setting tank up is 4-5 weeks. So very interested in some of your thoughts on this method.