Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > New to the Hobby
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 12/22/2009, 06:20 AM   #1
Kates
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Smile Should I Upgrade Already?

Hi everyone, I am hoping for some advice on whether to upgrade from my 20g to a 75g or continue with the small one and get my first corals...here's background info: I have a 20 gallon tank with about 12-15 pounds LR, its been up and running for about 3 months now. Started off with just LR, about 3 weeks ago added 5 red-legged hermits, who are doing well, very little nutrient spike. Two chesnut turbo snails were settled in the tank about a week ago. I have not had much if any spike in the ammonia/nitrogen levels from adding livestock-except when I left extra algae wafers or brine shrimp for the hermits (I now clean up the extra food) so I think everything is good...temp is 78, using a hydrometer the sg is 1.024 or so, but I do plan to get a refractometer. Oh, and coralline algae seems to be growing nicely on the rocks, very pretty dark pink, and purple. I have a 75 gallon, so I am planning to upgrade to that eventually but I wanted to get everything right and going well with the 20 gallon. I hope I['m not getting ahead of myself, but the next thing I want to try are zooa polyps, mushrooms, or similar type of beginner coral. But if I plan to put everything in a 75g eventually, would I have better luck with the corals if I just wait till the bigger thank is ready? What type of coral to get as first step toward true-reef-tank? Thanks so much in advance, I have learned an incredible amount from this forum!


Kates is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 06:33 AM   #2
iwishtofish
Registered Member
 
iwishtofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 4,949
I'd feed your 20g very sparingly - just enough to barely sustain the cleanup crew. If just a small amount of uneaten food caused a detectable spike in ammonia, I suspect that either your cycle never truly completed or your biological filtration, for some other reason, isn't quite adequate. Good to remove the uneaten food, though! How did you initiate your cycle, and were you able to watch your ammonia spike and decrease, then same for nitrites and nitrates?

Now that your 20g is set up and you're having fun with it, I'd just experiment with a few corals and one or two very small fish while you are waiting to set up your 75g (as am I ). Add livestock very gradually of course, testing for your tank's reaction after each addition.

As for corals, what kind of flow and lighting do you have?

Any photos?


iwishtofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 08:39 AM   #3
Chris27
Registered Member
 
Chris27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 4,452
If you are content with your 20g for now, it can give you the chance to set up your 75 properly. By properly, I mean it can run for a month or two prior to putting any livestock in, you can QT fish, you can get everything set up, that sort of thing. With patience you can bask in your success later down the road!


Chris27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 08:41 AM   #4
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
When you upgrade, are you planning on running both tanks at once, or just switching to the 75g?

I can think of a few reasons to go both ways, but I'd probably lean towards upgrading NOW, before you have any sensitive or expensive livestock (i.e. corals and fish) if you know you're going to do it eventually.


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 09:19 AM   #5
deathmatch782
Registered Member
 
deathmatch782's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 151
^ i agree

It is much easier to set the larger tank up before you have fish to try and catch, or corals to move.


deathmatch782 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 09:26 AM   #6
Lightsluvr
Tangaroa to 500 gallons
 
Lightsluvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 5,855
Another option...

Wait another six months, keep watching Craigslist, and buy at firesale prices that 120G that you're really wanting! Come on, admit it, you're already planning another upgrade...

Use the 75G for a sump/refugium...

LL


__________________
Click on my username and select "Lightsluvr's Home Page" for a recap of our build thread - AGE Hybrid Tank in a 500G system with dedicated fish room. (Takes a few minutes for photos to load) Leave a note if you stop by...

Current Tank Info: 350G AGE Hybrid reef tank. 500G+ total water volume. Three sumps for filtration. Barracuda Gold return and Hammerhead Gold closed loop pumps. DIY T5 light system on rails. MP40W x3 to supplement closed loop. 130G Water management system.
Lightsluvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 12:20 PM   #7
tspors
Registered Member
 
tspors's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Appleton, WI. USA
Posts: 774
Here's a question for you to ponder........
Do you want to upgrade?


__________________
Everything is Good with Moderation.

Current Tank Info: 150 Gal Oceanic, 30g Sump, Gen-X PCX-150 2250 gph, Red Sea Clasic Turbo Skimmer, 18w Turbo Twist UV, Ocean Clear Filter w/live rock, Several Buckets,
tspors is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 02:55 PM   #8
Kates
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishtofish View Post
I'd feed your 20g very sparingly - just enough to barely sustain the cleanup crew. If just a small amount of uneaten food caused a detectable spike in ammonia, I suspect that either your cycle never truly completed or your biological filtration, for some other reason, isn't quite adequate. Good to remove the uneaten food, though! How did you initiate your cycle, and were you able to watch your ammonia spike and decrease, then same for nitrites and nitrates?

Now that your 20g is set up and you're having fun with it, I'd just experiment with a few corals and one or two very small fish while you are waiting to set up your 75g (as am I ). Add livestock very gradually of course, testing for your tank's reaction after each addition.

As for corals, what kind of flow and lighting do you have?

Any photos?
Hi thanks for the responses! Well, I initiated my cycle a bit haphazardly-bought two of those "live sand" packages from PetCo, knowing it wasn't really live but hoping it would contain bacteria enough to help start. After that was in there with the saltwater at about 1.021 or 1.022 sg for a few days, I was at PetCo and got 2 pieces of live rock. I really am not a PetCo fan, but what can you do when the LFS is only open till 6pm? So I had read all about LR and curing it, and I thought, well I'll just see what happens. So, sorry for the long story, but instead of letting ammonia/nitrogen levels spike and go down, I think I did too many water changes. Because the LR had little tube worms and things living on it, I was thinking what else might be hiding, like a cute little crab or something! I didn't want to kill them! So I guess I was planning on having the LR help cycle the tank, but you may indeed be right that my cycle hasn't actually matured fully. Thank you for that insight!

Lighting and flow: I'm embarrassed to even talk about my cheapness when it comes to the lights so far. I bought my 75g tank/stand/canpy from a guy on craigslist, for $130. One big bulb is in the canopy and two smaller lights on a thingy that sits over the aquarium. I'm currently using the smaller(smaller diameter, still 48" long) lights over the 20g. They came with a ballast that says "Odyssea H/T5 Lighting Ballast 45Wx2". So I guess this is what they are? But obviously these will need replacing soon? I just don't know what to get, I really think the wiring and stuff for these bulbs is too old and full of salt creep for me to use them when I set up the larger. Ahhh! I have one Marineland Bio-wheel filter, rated for 35(?) gallons in addition to a Whisper in-tank filter that I just have the mehcanical filter media in, which stays on for added flow. That one is rated for 20g, I don't know the gph. So these two are the "flow", is this enough to even consider corals? Thank you SO much for all the great replies, I'm sorry to be tardy in responding to them!


Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4173.jpg (90.2 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4159.jpg (77.1 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4164.jpg (85.1 KB, 34 views)
Kates is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 02:55 PM   #9
malawinovice
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 677
upgrade to 75 is what I did from a 40 breeder.

I did the switch over a few days to let all the dust settle. I took my 50 lbs of live rock from my 40 breeder and added 40 lbs of marco dry rock that I had seasoned in a vat in the basement for 2 weeks and made sure no spikes. Worked great. I was thinking of transistioning over 2 - 3 weeks, but once the rocks are set up and the sand settles, I did a switch of a 1/4 of tank a day till fully mixed old and new water.


malawinovice is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 03:11 PM   #10
Kates
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightsluvr View Post
Wait another six months, keep watching Craigslist, and buy at firesale prices that 120G that you're really wanting! Come on, admit it, you're already planning another upgrade...

Use the 75G for a sump/refugium...

LL
Well, in fact before I ever decided to start the saltwater with the small one, I had my eye on several very LARGE tanks...Oh, I do want a huge one, I admit it, ok! I never suspected it would be this addicting!

Yes, I do want to upgrade...I'm already wishing I had more room for more LR-even if I never have corals, just seeing what comes out of the LR is fascinating.


Kates is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 03:15 PM   #11
Chiefsurfer
Registered Member
 
Chiefsurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seaside Park, NJ
Posts: 2,138
ok, well Water changes will not stop, decrease, or in most ways affect your cycle. What will be affected is the SIZE of the bacteria colonies that grow from a cycle. The larger the colony, the larger the bioload they will "fix". You truely do not need to cycle a tank with one big cycle. You can also do it slowly with many much smaller cycles. Chances are that if you start the 75 galoon "from" the 20, meaning you use the same rock, the same fish, corals, etc. You will have to take it very slow, OR buy a decent amount of new rock and transport the old stuff over once you have already cycled the 75. The bacteria feed off of ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. For this reason, the more you have in there, the more need to grow. It's just like sustainability of any wildlife. Here in NJ, we have an overabundance of deer. This is because there are no predators, and enough food for them to thrive, so they just keep replacing the dead ones with new-borns. Once they hit the limit of their food-stock, some will die off, until they have reached the correct sustainable number of deer. Same goes for bacteria. They will reproduce until they reach the sustainable number of bacteria. You produce ammonia in 1 way, rotting food left over. Fish produce it in 2 ways, they expel it from their gills when breathing, and their poop rotting. Every time you add a fish(and corals too, but on a MUCH smaller level) you will basically adding a food source for the bacteria. They will grow until they reach the right population to consume the ammonia.

By cycling a tank(whether it be live rock that may have some dead matter, or by introducing some type of food to rot, flake, shrimp, etc.) you are giving these bacteria a food source. By doing water changes to keep it low, all you did was decrease their colony size, not decimate their population. This is fine, just means that after every fish/livestock addition, you need to wait a little bit longer before the tank stabilizes, and you can add another.

You MIGHT be able to detect the mini-cycle with the FIRST addition of livestock, but most-likely every one after that, you will not be able to detect because the spikes will be so minimal.

As to the original question. I think you should stick with the 20 for now. Get your feet wet. As stated, take it VERY slow, save your money for the RIGHT equipment. For a 75, I'd go with a nice t5 fixture, at least 4 bulb, maybe 6, which should run you a decent amount of money. While one of the most important AND expensive pieces of equip, it can easily be the last one.

First I would get rid of at least one of your mechanical filters(preferably both) and get yourself a nice skimmer. Also, it is possible at 3 weeks for your cycle to NOT be over yet. By now you should be seeing nitrite or nitrate spikes. Once they read 0, go ahead and add a fish or two. You know the deal. You can knowingly skimp on some things on this 20, if you know that 6 months down the road you will have the 75 up and running. If the fixture you already have is a t5, you are fine to start off with a few soft corals. Some beginner examples would be mushrooms, softees(like frogspawn, torch, etc). You can always transfer this stuff over once you are ready.


Chiefsurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 04:43 PM   #12
Reefolution
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 299
I would stay with the 20gal for now to practice and learn. Then you can take your time and plan an upgrade that fixes all the things you learned with the 20gal. There is lots of information on R.C. about upgrading, just check out the large tank form! Patience is key, if you rush into upgrading right now another one will be right around the corner. The longer you can wait the more happy you will be with your upgrade. Good Luck. Of course I'm the guy who plans too much and never gets anything done.


Reefolution is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/22/2009, 06:51 PM   #13
wiz224
Registered Member
 
wiz224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 50
I am still saving to upgrade my 20. I almost pulled the trigger but then i realized what every single person on rc will tell ya. Listen to what reefolution just said...


wiz224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/23/2009, 07:41 AM   #14
iwishtofish
Registered Member
 
iwishtofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 4,949
Hey Kates,

Is your tank a 20 long (30" long), or the taller one?

The T5 fixture you are using over your 20g now is probably going to be fine to supply light to soft corals. The bulbs may be older, though, and have lost their effectiveness. Replacing them with quality bulbs (does make a difference) will likely cost about $40+. The fixture is too long for your 20g tank, you say, so you'd be upgrading an item that isn't really a good fit in the first place. Lighting is one of the most important (and biggest) purchases in the hobby, if one wants to keep corals. This is why deciding now which tank you are going to go with for a while is important.

Before you consider corals at all in your current tank, though, you'll need to get things stabilized. I noticed some hair algae growth on your rock, which typically indicates excess nutrients.

Are you using distilled or RO/DI water? Tap water generally equals a lot of grief.

HOB filters are generally a fresh water tank item, as filtration in a saltwater tank is provided by the liverock, a protein skimmer, and water changes. An HOB skimmer would be nice, but on such small tanks, many people just do regular water changes for nutrient export. You could keep an HOB filter to run carbon, but you'd need to change the carbon filter pretty regularly as it would trap detritus (bad).

You'll also need to buy a powerhead to provide flow. Even if you were to keep using an HOB filter, it would not provide the flow that corals need. A properly aimed powerhead can also provide surface agitation, which helps with aeration and gas-exchange.

Sorry to ramble on. Chiefsurfer offered some great advice!

For my next tank, I was going to set up a 20 long, using a lot of equipment I already had, but then I decided to go with a 75g because I knew it would keep me satisfied for a pretty long time. That decision has cost me a LOT of money so far! Just something to keep in mind...



Last edited by iwishtofish; 12/23/2009 at 07:44 AM. Reason: Changed words
iwishtofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 01:41 AM   #15
Kates
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Thank you so much for all the great advice. I really don't know what I would do if I had not found reefcentral! I do think I will stay with the 20G (its a 20G "long") for a while, and buy items for the larger tank if good deals come up. the filter, skimmer, and lighting are all huge mental roadblocks for me, as they are so expensive. So it will make it easier to buy them one quality thing at a time, hopefully! I do have some hair algae, although it hasn't expanded, so I do think I have excess nutrients.
As far as filtration: I read somewhere of a filter system that used a sump/refugium set up with the water flowing down over a series of screens , allowing algae to grow on the screens and consume excess nutrients. I don't know that this is a complete answer, but I like the idea of having the most "natural" set up possible. I am wondering, is it total suicide to contemplate a filtration system that doesn't use a protein skimmer? Or, uses a skimmer only as a small component to filtration? I hope this isn't a "oh, yep, she's a newbie" type of question, LOL.


Kates is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 06:07 AM   #16
Chiefsurfer
Registered Member
 
Chiefsurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seaside Park, NJ
Posts: 2,138
nah, it's a fine question. Using vs not using a skimmer is debatable. I will tell you one thing. If you have a skimmer, you will likely have healthier water. In a nano(20 gallon) it should be fairly easy to do without. With anything over 40 gallons or so, I feel it is a necessary part of equip.


__________________
Chief

Current Tank: 20 Gallon tall, 4-bulb t5 HO, Eshopps psk75H, ac-70 fuge. So far, green clown goby, striped goby, more gorillas than I wish I had, 5 SPS frags, 3 LPS Frags, 1 Softee, Turkey Wing Clam.

Plan for the future: 120 gallon 4ft glass tank.

Current Tank Info: 20 gallon tall Reef Tank
Chiefsurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 09:37 AM   #17
julie180
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Raymore, MO
Posts: 2,556
Kates,

What you are thinking about is an Algea turf scrubber ATF. An internet search will net you way more info than you could ever read.


julie180 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 10:59 AM   #18
IridescentLily
Editor-Reefkeeping mag
 
IridescentLily's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 3,858
Blog Entries: 5
I'd keep the 20 running while you setup your bigger tank, so you can use the 20 as a quarantine tank. The second option I'd do is use the 20 as a sump for the bigger tank.
Do you have a skimmer currently?
Do you know (I apologize if you've already posted this info) what wattage your halides are?


__________________
~April
Editor-Reefkeeping Magazine
IridescentLily is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/20/2010, 12:16 PM   #19
Kates
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Yes, the Algae turf scrubber, thats right! Thanks I'll google it. No, I don't have a skimmer, they just seem so expensive for a little 20G. My lights are "H/T5" with 54 W. there are 2 lights. At least, thats what the Ballast says-"Odyssea H/T5 Lighting Ballast, 54x2W. So I'm assuming(hopefully correctly) the lights are what go with the ballast. They really aren't as bright as they were even a couple months ago, I think they must be getting old. Would it be better to buy just replacement bulbs? Except the fixture is old and rusty and I have to put aluminum foil around the top of the lights. And its flaking off the black coating which can't be good. But they are so expensive to buy new fixture and bulbs. Ayi yi yi...


Kates is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/20/2010, 01:06 PM   #20
Pcrain
Registered Member
 
Pcrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: chico ca
Posts: 414
I suggest waiting longer till upgrading to often I see people to excited in this hobbie..

I know i am prob not going to change your mind but 3 months is no enough time to learn about reef keeping you are going to spend a ton of money upgrading...

LEARN MORE plan an awesome tank for a year than build a awesome tank! with all the planing done ..

experiment with your 20 try different addictive's and monitor it as you do this try kalk/ different 2 parts/ different lighting/ flow/ corals you can do this cheaply in a 20g and learn a TON!

this experimenting will help you plan a great build! instead of jumping head first into a black hole..

my neighbor saw my tank and right away he bought a 25g tank he was doing ok after 4 months so he wanted to upgrade and he did he and jumped right into a 55g.. then he realized how much work and $$ it cost to run.. and sold it all in 8 months.. i told him to take it slow but he didn't listen and now hes down 500$ and he learned his lesson and regrettably i feel guilty for not being able to slow him down and letting him take that dive into this intense hobby..


stick with your first tank for awhile then upgrade later be responsible


Pcrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/20/2010, 01:14 PM   #21
DC_40gallon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,474
Too bad your not in my area. I just spotted a 55 gallon with stand, substrate, skimmer, powerheads, etc. The entire works for $100.


DC_40gallon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.