Lanthanum chloride

[tc2007]

I just did a quick dose of Lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa). I got 5 micron bags from ebay and dosed about 5ml or so directly in the filter. It was a mistake in hindsight. I got some cloudiness and my Tri-Color fairy wrasse as choking for air for a while and sitting on the floor. I had to change the filter, increase flow and moved the return outlet a bit to the top to increase agitation. The wrasse is doing fine now. Almost didn't make it.

I had PO4 reading between 1-3ppm in the Salifert test before and today after dosing yesterday, it is not showing any color in the test!!! It's undetectable. Not sure if this a temporary effect of the compound still in the water messing with the results or what! How long does it take for the compound to go away?

[WLachnit]

Originally Posted by tc2007

I just did a quick dose of Lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa). I got 5 micron bags from ebay and dosed about 5ml or so directly in the filter. It was a mistake in hindsight. I got some cloudiness and my Tri-Color fairy wrasse as choking for air for a while and sitting on the floor. I had to change the filter, increase flow and moved the return outlet a bit to the top to increase agitation. The wrasse is doing fine now. Almost didn't make it.

I had PO4 reading between 1-3ppm in the Salifert test before and today after dosing yesterday, it is not showing any color in the test!!! It's undetectable. Not sure if this a temporary effect of the compound still in the water messing with the results or what! How long does it take for the compound to go away?

Your PO4 level could indeed have gone from 1-3ppm to undetectable from the LaCl3. IME, the levels will creep back up from the LR leaching PO4 into the water. I would test again in 2-4 days or so.

The compound does not "go away". Any free La ions will precipitate as LaPO4 which is why filters are neccessary.

[tc2007]

Originally Posted by WLachnit

Your PO4 level could indeed have gone from 1-3ppm to undetectable from the LaCl3. IME, the levels will creep back up from the LR leaching PO4 into the water. I would test again in 2-4 days or so.

The compound does not "go away". Any free La ions will precipitate as LaPO4 which is why filters are neccessary.

Yep I have 5 micron filter on right now.

[tmz]

La binds with PO4 and carbonate( CO3). It depletes alkalinity as it removes these alkalines from the water column; so, monitoring alkalinity is prudent.
Filtering via 5 micron is helpful ,but slow dosing to a high flow areas is also required to be sure the lanthanum has an adequate supply of PO4 and/or CO3 upstream of the filter ;otherwise and some free lanthanum( smaller than H2O) will pass through any filter water will pass through leading to precipitation in the tank itself or perhaps on or in organisms in the tank.

The La does not go away; it precipitates to lanthanum phosphate and/or lanthanum carbonate and I suspect some other compounds to a lesser extent. The precipitant stays in the tank and will not dissolve at normal reef tank pH, but may in some areas of the tank or if taken up by organisms in the tank.

Dosing too much at one time can lead to tragic cosequences for some of the animals in the tank incuding fish ,corals and mollusks.

[tmz]

ATS has it's pros and cons. It's not my preference for a number of reasons ( exudates, potetential toxins and increased TOC among them). Though some like them , discussing ATS at length here here is off topic,IMO ; this thread is about lanthanum chloride.

There are many methods to manage PO4; lanthanum is one of those that when carefully used seems to satisfy those who use it regularly via a slow dose well filtered method.

[Drone]

Originally Posted by tc2007

I just did a quick dose of Lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa). I got 5 micron bags from ebay and dosed about 5ml or so directly in the filter. It was a mistake in hindsight. I got some cloudiness and my Tri-Color fairy wrasse as choking for air for a while and sitting on the floor. I had to change the filter, increase flow and moved the return outlet a bit to the top to increase agitation. The wrasse is doing fine now. Almost didn't make it.

I had PO4 reading between 1-3ppm in the Salifert test before and today after dosing yesterday, it is not showing any color in the test!!! It's undetectable. Not sure if this a temporary effect of the compound still in the water messing with the results or what! How long does it take for the compound to go away?

There should be NO such thing as a quick dose of Lanthanum unless your treating live rock!

5 ml in a 90 gallon system could definitely bring phosphate down that much. I dose .75 ml mixed in 2 liters of RO water dripped at 1 drop per second into a filter sock for my 100 total gallon system. this brings me from .4 ppm to .02 ppm.

If you were dripping a diluted solution into a 5 micron 4 inch filter sock, that much of a drop would have plugged it up and overflowed into the tanks water column causing your cloudiness. I go through 2 4 inch socks with my treatment so I stepped up to 7 inch socks to make it through a full treatment.

If you just dosed the 5 ml full strength by pouring it into the sock it probably stripped the phosphate and carbonate out of the water that was in the sock and made it through the filter and into the water column unreacted then reacted once in the unfiltered water causing your cloudiness.

Also the sock needs to be supplied with a high flow of water entering the sock, such as having the overflow drain water passing through it or the output of a pump. If not the water in the sock will be stripped of phosphate and carbonate and the lanthanum will leech out of the sock and react outside of filtration.

I have not yet experienced ANY cloudiness or gasping fish (purple tang included) dosing the way I have been.

Kevin

[DamonG]

I just picked up some of the Natural Chemistry Phos Free to try it. I run dual filter socks(in series), and I dripped 10 drops into the first filter sock. None of my animals are breathing hard, and the water hasn't turned cloudy. I am watching the system for a little bit and then may try another 5 drops later on.

I'm wondering a couple things:

1. How often are you all dosing? I feed very little, maybe two to three times a week some freeze dried krill. I know it will depend on testing ultimately..

2. This stuff is so inexpensive compared to the stuff you buy at the fish store, like phosphate rx, is it more concentrated? I'm not sure what the percent is in phosphate rx, but this says 11.03 I believe on the msds..

Thanks a ton..

from note 7

[tc2007]

Originally Posted by DamonG

I just picked up some of the Natural Chemistry Phos Free to try it. I run dual filter socks(in series), and I dripped 10 drops into the first filter sock. None of my animals are breathing hard, and the water hasn't turned cloudy. I am watching the system for a little bit and then may try another 5 drops later on.

I'm wondering a couple things:

1. How often are you all dosing? I feed very little, maybe two to three times a week some freeze dried krill. I know it will depend on testing ultimately..

2. This stuff is so inexpensive compared to the stuff you buy at the fish store, like phosphate rx, is it more concentrated? I'm not sure what the percent is in phosphate rx, but this says 11.03 I believe on the msds..

Thanks a ton..

from note 7

Make sure to test Alk as it will drop.

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by tc2007

Make sure to test Alk as it will drop.

Will do. That's my plan for in the morning before work..

from note 7

[chiefifd]

I've used lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa) with a good deal of success killing the green hair algae in my 90 gallon DT. I added 3ml of SeaKelar into 2 quarts of RO/DI water and dripped it into a 10 micron bag (repeated this several times over the last month).
My question is after the green hair algae has died, how long will it take for the remaining algae to dissipate from the rock? I've pulled all the algae I can off the rock by hand (I did this many times removing a large amount of it).
Now I removed a few pieces of rock from the DT and scrubbed the rock in saltwater, hoping to clean the remaining dead algae. Some dead algae did come off, but there's quite a bit of white looking dead hair algae remaining that I couldn't scrub off.
Did this clear itself up after several months???, or should I try another method of removing the dead hair algae.
Thanks for any help.....

[GROSSR]

I have dosed LaCL into the sump with a 20 micron sock and have had great results, but, dripping only goes so far. I found a thread on a LaCL reactor. I have set this up, 2 RO canisters fillled with Floss, and a doser to inject the LaCL mixture into the first RO canister. I have 20ml of Seaclear in a gallon jug, dosing 70ML a day of this mixture. I am tweaking the dosing, but I am consistently at .07.

Anyone else using a LaCL reactor like this?

rich

[Srixon]

Originally Posted by GROSSR

I have dosed LaCL into the sump with a 20 micron sock and have had great results, but, dripping only goes so far. I found a thread on a LaCL reactor. I have set this up, 2 RO canisters fillled with Floss, and a doser to inject the LaCL mixture into the first RO canister. I have 20ml of Seaclear in a gallon jug, dosing 70ML a day of this mixture. I am tweaking the dosing, but I am consistently at .07.

Anyone else using a LaCL reactor like this?

rich

Pictures????

[GROSSR]

Start here... No easy way for this one. You know how these reads can go.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2288470

rich

[tmz]

.07ppm isn't bad and may be as low as you can get in your specific aquarium with lanthanum. At some point the lanthanum binds carbonate vs phosaphate. I think there are some notes on this earlier in the thread.

[chiefifd]

Now that this thread is receiving a bit of attention again, I'd like to re-post my question from above. I would really appreciate any help.......Thanks

I've used lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa) with a good deal of success killing the green hair algae in my 90 gallon DT. I added 3ml of SeaKelar into 2 quarts of RO/DI water and dripped it into a 10 micron bag (repeated this several times over the last month).
My question is after the green hair algae has died, how long will it take for the remaining algae to dissipate from the rock? I've pulled all the algae I can off the rock by hand (I did this many times removing a large amount of it).
Now I removed a few pieces of rock from the DT and scrubbed the rock in saltwater, hoping to clean the remaining dead algae. Some dead algae did come off, but there's quite a bit of white looking dead hair algae remaining that I couldn't scrub off.
Did this clear itself up after several months???, or should I try another method of removing the dead hair algae.
Thanks for any help....

[GROSSR]

Chiefifd :

Can't honestly answer that question, about clearing up. Just depends on your tank. You should start to see hair algae subside. Some folks use the growth of nuisance algae as an indicator of an increase in phosphates. Your rock might be leaching phosphates. Old Tank syndrome. As said earlier, you keep monitoring your phosphates and dose the Seaklear as needed. It was mentioned by Gary M. you can do this a few times a month.

rich

[chiefifd]

Thanks for the reply....

I tried to do some research on dry rock because of the phosphate leaching issues that may be associated with some of it. I bought the dry rock from Reef Cleaners, seemed like they had some of the best dry rock when it came to leaching phosphates from it.

Honestly, I haven't been able to get a phosphate reading from my Hanna Phosphate checker, only 0.00 I know the phosphates might not register if their high.

I treat the total water volume 120 gallons with 3 to 4 milliliters about once a week. The green hair algae is definitely much less, but not gone entirely.

Maybe I need to treat my tank more often.
Thanks for any advise....

[laverda]

I have read a lot of this thread, however not every post. Several posts lead me to think some people are over dosing their tanks with LC. When I workied in the aquarium industry some customers had issues while dosing LC. A manufacturer said you should never dose LC without knowing you Po4 levels first. If there is no or very little phosphates LC may bind with and percipate out calcium, if bad enough producing cloudiness. The Ca participate can kill sensitive fish like wrasses and others by clogging their gills. I have used it with good success, however I always dosed at half the recommended dose. I have seen no mention of it possibly binding with calcium before.

[tmz]

It actually binds carbonate not calcium in lieu of of phosphate. Both the lanthanum carbonate an lanthanum phosphate precipitants can clog breathing appartuses when it's not carefully pre filtered. Free unbound lanthanum can also enter the tank when it's not dosed slowly to high flow

[laverda]

tmz
Clearly you know more about the chemistry involved then I do, so I stand corrected. Thank you. The real point is it can kill our fish if over dosed.

[tmz]

yes that's the point. Fish and filter feeders too. It needs to be dosed slowly in high flow and then filtered for precipitants. Cloudy water in the tank is a bad thing.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I still get asked in PMs (and otherwise) if I still use LaCl3.
The answer is yes.
When administered properly, (diluted) in front of micron (or sand) filters, LaCl3 is safely used on other (higher forms) of life: dialysis in humans, swimming pools, penguin displays etc.etc.
It can be safe to use in reef aquaria.
But administered improperly, it can be very unsafe.
Not a big surprise.

I won't comment on the other methods people use to administer lanthanum chloride because that's not how I use it.
Caveat emptor!

[chiefifd]

Gary...
I treat my total water volume of 120 gallons with 3 to 4 milliliters of lanthanum Chloride (SeaKelar Phosphate remover for Spa) mixed in 2 quarts of RO/DI water once a week. I drip the lanthanum Chloride and RO/DI water into a 5 micron sock, that process normally takes 4 or 5 hours. When the solution has been exhausted, I remove the 5 micron sock. Does the process sound "ok"..?
I had quite a bit of green algae on my rock, the rock was gotten from Reef Cleaners. Most of the green algae has receded over the last few months, but not entirely gone. I haven't been able to get a phosphate reading from my Hanna Phosphate checker, only 0.00 I know the phosphates might not register if their high.
I'm beginning to think my problem is really with the dry rock I used.

[Gary Majchrzak]

your method of treatment sounds very ok.

It's ok to have some algae in a reef aquarium

[chiefifd]

Thanks for your help!!!
Ed