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Old 12/18/2008, 08:07 AM   #1
JohnL
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This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...0#post13968640


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Old 12/18/2008, 08:07 AM   #2
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Old 08/06/2009, 10:32 PM   #3
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I am currently in the process of expanding a system that was roughly 500 gallons (sump about the same) it consisted of 9 tanks,sand filter,bio tower,chiller, and u/v. I am the facility director for YMCA Camp surf, we recently recieved a donation of several large tanks (the smallest is55 and the rest are all over 100) a 6 foot tall protien skimmer (venturi) lots of power heads, 2 Seahorse pumps (1/2 hp) another bio tower, more tanks to increase sump volume, etc... This system is not really a reef, we keep local specimens as a teaching aide to promote healthy oceans and environmental stewardship. My questions are sinc this is a cold water environmet is a refugium useful? What order should I place equipment? ( bio- sand-skimmer-u/v refug'?) Can I elimnate any thing? I understand the plumbing issues;ut teh filtration is still a bit foggy. I am in contact with an aquarist from Scripps Institute but he is quite busy so I have bee on my own lately. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I am fairly new to all of thi, so please be gentle. Thanks for your' time and patience. Mark A. Carrick [email protected]


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Old 08/06/2009, 10:34 PM   #4
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Oops I failed to mention that the new system will be aprox' 1,400 gallons. Thanks again.


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Old 08/06/2009, 11:19 PM   #5
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Even though it's a cold water system a refugium will still be useful. It'll help pull out nutrients that would otherwise create algae, helping reduce the size/number of water changes, saving money in the long shot (I can only imagine the cost of salt when maintaining a 1,400 gallon system.)

If you have the space to set everything up it would be beneficial to setup an entire tank as a refugium.

I work at a pet place. Ours is setup so that the tanks drain through a floss filter, then over a bio-wheel & finally into the sump. The return pump is T'd off to feed the skimmer & return water to the display tanks.

How is the skimmer fed? I'm assuming that since it's such a large skimmer it's probably an external recirculating skimmer that needs one pump to push water into it & another pump(s) to create the air bubbles.


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Old 08/07/2009, 10:09 AM   #6
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Wow, I thought this thread was in the archive by now but when it resurfaces it sure can be interesting.

First off
Hi Mark

To Reef Central

It sure sounds like you have a major project in store for the Y. I'll try to give a few pointers but you are smart to seek council form Scripps as their Kelp tank at the Birch is a tank native to your area. I am far from a master of temperate water tanks.

The principle of aquarium design are alike in both a reef and temperate tank in many respects but things like using LR differ as that coastal water lack the large formation found in a tropical reef. Bottoms are mainly sand with eroded rock interspersed in small groups.

This poses somewhat of a challenge as it would take away from the natural appearance you are seeking to have the display piled high with live rock collected in a reef area. Also, the diversity to the natural filtration changes with the move from tropical to cooler waters. Temperate waters have the usual bristle, fan worms, copepods and starfish of a tropical ocean but they are usually of entirely different species than those seen on the reef.

It would be nice if you could collect both rock and sand from the ocean near you but I'm not sure that is legal. You would be wise to contact the San Diego Marine Aquarium Society for help in that area.

It sounds like you have many tanks so things a like a turf type algae scrubber would be a great means of providing filtration. This is more or less a sump with screens that have water poring over the screen. Algae is encouraged to grow on the screens and is periodically scraped off. By using a couple of algae filters in series you can control nitrates as the algae itself becomes a nitrate export medium. They also would serve as your refugiums as things like pods and worms breed freely in the algae mats. It is similar to many refugiums that use marcro algae. The thing here is that Chaetomorpha does not grow well in cool waters and Caulerpa, which does, is banned in California as a noxious aquatic weed. Kelp tends to need a deep tank, hence the 40' tall tank at Birch , so a turf type microalgae fits the need at hand. Here is a simple DIY ATS example. When our August Reefkeeping Magazine is finally published check the article "Paul Baldassano’s Reef - 40 Years in the Making" for his turf scrubber.

You didn't mention what you had in the way of lighting. For the ATS simple shop lights will do. For the display it is a different matter. If you plan to have something like anemones, there are temperate species on the Pacific coast, then you will need strong lighting. If it is to mainly fish then less lighting is needed. It would help to know something about what you currently have.

One of the other things is fish native to your area grow fairly large. Even a 500 gallon tank is a bit cramped if you plan on a fish that can grow to 5+ feet. Maybe I'll get some other input on this thread form people that have temperate tanks of their own.


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Last edited by WaterKeeper; 08/07/2009 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 08/07/2009, 12:06 PM   #7
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Checked a map and you are right on the ocean so it may be possible to circulate those tanks directly with ocean water. You would pump water from the ocean through a filter and an activated carbon bed. There would be no need for a skimmer or any in-tank filtration if the turn over rate was around a complete water change every few of hours. You could always use a closed loop for addition circulation if needed. It would also forego the need for a chiller, which I forgot to ask about in my original post.

Just a thought.


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Old 08/07/2009, 10:32 PM   #8
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Thanks so much for the info'. Yes I am literally on the beach but can not circulate fresh sea water (as the Cal' Coastal Commision would have a fit) so I am bound to a chiller. I am excited about the turf type algae scrubber, it sounds like a less complicated option. As far as lighting goes we designed the building to be leed certified and have incorporated six large sky-lights in a vaulted ceiling to encourage lots of natural light tha moves as the earth turns. We didn't want sun light on any one tank for prolonged periods of time. Do you think that we should incorporate artificial light in tanks with anemones? As far as species go I don't think that we'll keep any thing that gets too large (unless one of the staff insists on a leopard shark,or bat rays). We will most likely display things like opal eye pearch, spiny lobster, sting rays,rock blenys, and several species of crab, sea stars. Do you know anything about barnacles? I am fortunate enough to have two rock jettys to harvest from and can get my system filled via 55 gal' drums and a tractor.My skimmer does stand outside of the system and was largely dismanteled when I got it, so I am trying to figure it out. (Can't be that hard though right?) Thanks fo all the help. Mark


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Old 08/08/2009, 06:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcarrick
Yes I am literally on the beach but can not circulate fresh sea water (as the Cal' Coastal Commision would have a fit).
I am fortunate enough to have two rock jettys to harvest from and can get my system filled via 55 gal' drums and a tractor.
Typical Ca silliness. You cannot pump water from the ocean but can fill 55 gallon drums -- go figure.

See Tom, you can never tell when someone digs up your past threads so be careful what you post (unlike me )


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Old 08/08/2009, 11:51 AM   #10
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Actually Alan, I think the folks in Ca worry about a reef tank recirculation system adding foreign specimens into the water that may become invasive but since Mark plans a local critter tank it would not be a problem.

Well, that means we go back to a closed system where that big old skimmer and designing an ATS may be of more value. I'm still trying to think about how to use the tanks he has to best advantage. We can do the barnacle tank without problem but it will need to be looped off of the turf scrubber so the the barnacles can use shed algae for food. On the other hand, we don't want loose algae colonizing the entire system as it would become a maintenance headache. I would envision using a filter and UV to prevent that form happening.

The natural lighting will be fine as we are only looking at a small anemone tank and the other tanks would not have things like corals where high illumination is needed. It will also help as, without needing high output lighting, the size of a chiller is reduced.

Mark,

Can you give me some details on that Bio-tower you mentioned. Give me some brand names or pic and I can get a better vision on how to use what you have. Thankfully, Alan is also around and he is an expert in tank construction ( see EnglishRebels New Tank Build) where I'm more into reef science and really dangerous if given a power tool.

Darn west coasters only sign it after 3:30 AM, my time, and expect quick answers.


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Old 08/08/2009, 02:33 PM   #11
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Thanks for the algae scrubber info' (the link appears broken); but I found other diy sites with pic's and such. It seems pretty easy and I am fortunate in the fact that my sump area is outdoors south side of the building. Will this eliminate the need for lighting the scrubber? I plan to construct a pergola with a lattice top to achieve approx' 70% shade. The sump itself has covers to further reduce light exposure. I think that I will dedicate one of the sump tanks to algae scrubbing. The bio tower is basically a 6' tall opaque box 18"wide x 18" deep, water is sprayed through the top and trickles down through a series of what I believe are screens. ( Sad to say but I have never looked inside to see. ) I'll get brand name info' for this and the other components on Monday. Before you guys start beating me up too badly about the whloe West coast thing: I want it to be known that my point of origin is Maryland. ( Hope this fact scores me some East coast Coolness points. ) Heva fun and I appreciate all of the help. Mark


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Old 08/10/2009, 10:52 AM   #12
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No need to apologize Mike. We know that the west coast has a ton of unusual regulations. Heck when you being from the east coast you may have been to ocean front hotels where they filter, heat and pipe ocean water to the bathroom tub.

Darn, I wish the bio-tower was clear as that could serve as the turf filter. Algae filters need light so it somewhat limits that as a option. It sounds like what you have is a tall trickling filter, aka wet/dry. It will work OK for a fish only tank but will seriously limit the types of invertabrates you can keep.

Here is that article on On Paul B's tank it has one form of ATS that he used with success. You local library may also be able to get you a copy of Adey, W. H. and Loveland, K. 1991 Dynamic Aquaria: Building Living Ecosystems, Academic Press, Incorporated
Dr. Adey book on the process.


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Old 08/11/2009, 05:30 AM   #13
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I was just in California at the Monteray Bay Aquarium. They use NSW for everything and I think they said they have to ozonize it before they dump it back into the sea. I took the back stage tour.
I think it's silly because they are hosting local animals but Arnold Swartzenagger is bigger than me so I won't argue with him.



Quote:
Here is that article on On Paul B's tank
Don't worry about that Paul B guy, I heard he can't keep goldfish


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Old 08/11/2009, 08:26 PM   #14
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Yeah I admit CA. is an odd duck when it comes to things sea water. I am working with one of the aquarists from Scripps and on a behind the scenes tour of the Birch facilityI think that Fernando said something about having to ionize water before returning to the sea. I am finished with the stands and am beginning the plumbing phase I started taking pic's ( maybe I'll start a build thread for this project.) I am picking up a 600 gallon round acrylic tank on Fri'. (As if things weren't complicated enough.) Thanks again every one.


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Old 08/11/2009, 11:28 PM   #15
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I just have to ask- is the round tank going to be a shark tank?


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Old 08/12/2009, 11:15 AM   #16
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Or maybe a wading pool for those too young to Surf.


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"Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation"

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Old 08/12/2009, 01:10 PM   #17
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Hey, I have no idea how big a 600g round tank is! I figured it might be big enough for small sharks or rays.


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Old 08/12/2009, 09:59 PM   #18
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Yes it originally housed a bamboo shark. We're thinking leopard or horned sharks and maybe rays. It is 6' in diameter and about 36" deep. It's pretty darn big. Is any body really too young to surf?


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Old 08/12/2009, 11:06 PM   #19
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I would love to see some pics of this system.


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Old 08/13/2009, 08:53 PM   #20
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I will try to get some posted this weekend.


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Old 08/14/2009, 07:04 AM   #21
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That will help a lot Mike. It will give us a better idea of how to set things up, although it sounds like you are already forming a game plan.


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Old 08/18/2009, 10:14 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Everyones Hero
Even though it's a cold water system a refugium will still be useful. It'll help pull out nutrients that would otherwise create algae, helping reduce the size/number of water changes, saving money in the long shot (I can only imagine the cost of salt when maintaining a 1,400 gallon system.)

If you have the space to set everything up it would be beneficial to setup an entire tank as a refugium.

I work at a pet place. Ours is setup so that the tanks drain through a floss filter, then over a bio-wheel & finally into the sump. The return pump is T'd off to feed the skimmer & return water to the display tanks.

How is the skimmer fed? I'm assuming that since it's such a large skimmer it's probably an external recirculating skimmer that needs one pump to push water into it & another pump(s) to create the air bubbles.
coldwater aquarium articles

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/5


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Old 08/19/2009, 09:18 PM   #23
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Thanks for the links. Well after meeting with the lead aquarist from Scripps today (he runs the Birch facility)I think that I finally have a good plan that incorporates many of the filtration methods that all of you have suggested. (Again,thanks to all who have replied to my posts.) The sump is just under 500 gallons, on top is a 60 cubic foot wet/dry full of bio balls fed by a 6' 6" tall protien skimmer that is 10" in diameter. In front of this there will be an algae scrubber/refugium, the scrubber is 4' tall and 6' long, it sits outside on a South facing patio so it will have plenty of light while providing shade for the sump. Fernando says that I will be able to grow kelp in the 'fuge as long as I keep it mowed. Feeding the barnacles will be accomplished by shutting off the fill tube and using power heads to circulate zooplankton for an hour then opening the valve again. We picked up the circular tank and are going to use it for sting rays and horned sharks. I am finally finished with the counters so now it's on to the plumbing phase. I did the math today in order to get a larger chiller ordered. (I was a bit off with my previous estimate.) The total volume of the system, including the sump is 2,499 gallons the water weighs 20.855 pounds (10.427 tons.)In other words alot of water. Thanks for all of the input, info', and ideas. I promise to get some pictures up soon. mark A. Carrick


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Old 08/19/2009, 09:44 PM   #24
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Only in my dreams have I worked on a 2500 gallon tank. I'm not too keen on the 450 gallon wet/dry but then you mainly are thinking about sharks and rays, where nitrates will not be a problem.

Keep us informed Mike as the project certainly has my attention.


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Old 10/02/2009, 01:23 PM   #25
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How difficult would it be to remove one side of the bio tower? If you could open it up to light, it might work as a turf algae scrubber.


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