GFCI Question - receptacle install fail

expo703 · 10/08/2015, 05:22 PM

So #1 my house is old and I don't have a ground wire. I guess my box might be grounded IDK i'm know nothing about electrical. #2 my wires are aluminum not copper = fail. This is my setup now. So instead of installing a breaker(assuming those wires are not copper either) I bought these shack buster portable GFCI adapters and will plug in my apex and another power surge to it here is a picture. Does this have me covered? If so I will just return this receptacle outlet tomorrow!

(btw the second one is actually plugged into the wall outlet but with a 1" extension cable like this one)

I wasn't able to fit both into the wall outlet flush b.c they were too bulky.

Thanks!

Gorgok · 10/08/2015, 07:30 PM

If you lose power do those come back on with it, or need to clicky button to fix them (the latter is common in my experience)? If its the latter i would take the risk of shock over the inconvenience of clicky buttons...

Or run a new wire to that outlet and do it right.

Harry_Y · 10/08/2015, 07:45 PM

Can you just wore up a dedicated circuit?

expo703 · 10/08/2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgok

If you lose power do those come back on with it, or need to clicky button to fix them (the latter is common in my experience)? If its the latter i would take the risk of shock over the inconvenience of clicky buttons...

Or run a new wire to that outlet and do it right.

I have yet to lose power..but I have closed the circuit on the breaker while they were on and then turned it back on from the breaker no problem without clicking any reset buttons. Isnt that the same thing?

expo703 · 10/08/2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry_Y

Can you just wore up a dedicated circuit?

I have no clue how to do that I didnt even know what a GFCI was before reading about them on this forum! ;]

oreo57 · 10/08/2015, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expo703

So #1 my house is old and I don't have a ground wire. I guess my box might be grounded IDK i'm know nothing about electrical. #2 my wires are aluminum not copper = fail. Does this have me covered? If so I will just return this receptacle outlet tomorrow!

well considering the above "having you covered" is a bit sketchy.. BUT that little preaching aside..

GFCI's do protect you from large shocks regardless if a ground is present or not..Main function is to rapidly "sense" a difference in the load balance..

So it certainly is better than not having one..

As a side note there are more "elegant" solutions:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=17878

Gorgok · 10/08/2015, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expo703

I have yet to lose power..but I have closed the circuit on the breaker while they were on and then turned it back on from the breaker no problem without clicking any reset buttons. Isnt that the same thing?

Yep, that should be the same.

Some of the really cheap stuff i've seen need to be reset each time they are plugged in or power trips... Basically worthless junk.

expo703 · 10/09/2015, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgok

Yep, that should be the same.

Some of the really cheap stuff i've seen need to be reset each time they are plugged in or power trips... Basically worthless junk.

Gotcha - so I should be covered I mean it looks pretty ugly but @ least its safer and if I plug my Apex powerbar and another surge directly into that I should be fine right?

reelredfish · 10/09/2015, 09:15 AM

You may not like this but without a ground I would be concerned also the larger issue at hand is the fact that this is alum. wire.

They stopped using it for a reason it caused a lot of house fires back in the day. If you own the home you may want to plan out having a new box put in and all new wires ran. I understand this would be a large job but better to be safe than sorry.

expo703 · 10/09/2015, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reelredfish

You may not like this but without a ground I would be concerned also the larger issue at hand is the fact that this is alum. wire.

They stopped using it for a reason it caused a lot of house fires back in the day. If you own the home you may want to plan out having a new box put in and all new wires ran. I understand this would be a large job but better to be safe than sorry.

I'm aware about that and no way we are going to do that lol that could cost 8-15k plus we do not own the house.

I think the ground wire is probably on the back of the outlet box screwed on making the whole box grounded or @ least that is how I read they used to do it back in the day.

alton · 10/09/2015, 12:15 PM

Aluminum back in the 70's sucked, it was brittle and broke. Todays aluminum is made to copper standards, but not made in #12 or #10. If your home is not grounded and a receptacle is changed it needs to be a GFCI with a sticker that states this receptacle is not grounded. When you make that change since there are no more CU/Al receptacles you will need to pigtail the receptacle with #12 copper wire and then use purple wirenuts made for cu/al connections. Older devices had screws that where made from brass and where soft and connected to aluminum wire, todays screws on devices are steel and a not compatible with aluminum wire. And like someone mentioned GCFI doesn't stop you from getting shocked, but hopefully it safes your life.

Icefire · 10/11/2015, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oreo57

So it certainly is better than not having one..

I would never put a GFCI on something give life support to something, including fish.

They will trip for no reason in the middle of the night and kill your tank.

Better use a ground probe + regular breaker in my opinion

jrp1588 · 10/11/2015, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

I would never put a GFCI on something give life support to something, including fish.

They will trip for no reason in the middle of the night and kill your tank.

Better use a ground probe + regular breaker in my opinion

I've had power outages that last days and didn't lose the tank. Granted, I eventually got the heater and a pump running off a generator, but there was probably a good 12 hours without any power at all. I doubt a night without power would hurt much unless you keep your house really really cold, and your tank is small.

expo703 · 10/11/2015, 04:20 PM

Well I have a APEX hooked up now so I will get notified if they ever turn off for some reason..

Icefire · 10/11/2015, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expo703

Well I have a APEX hooked up now so I will get notified if they ever turn off for some reason..

If the Apex is on the same GFCI, you'll get notified only when power is back on

sleepydoc · 10/11/2015, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

I would never put a GFCI on something give life support to something, including fish.

They will trip for no reason in the middle of the night and kill your tank.

Better use a ground probe + regular breaker in my opinion

Regular breakers are designed to protect the wiring in your house, not you, and ground probes don't perform the same function.

I would never have a tank without a GFI outlet. Of all the GFI outlets I've had in houses over the last 20 years, I have never had a single one trip in the middle of the night for no reason. I have however had one trip when I did something stupid.

alton · 10/12/2015, 06:03 AM

I believe the Op stated there was not a ground wire? So a grounding probe is worthless, a metal box nailed to a wood stud is not a grounding means.

billdogg · 10/12/2015, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Regular breakers are designed to protect the wiring in your house, not you, and ground probes don't perform the same function.

I would never have a tank without a GFI outlet. Of all the GFI outlets I've had in houses over the last 20 years, I have never had a single one trip in the middle of the night for no reason. I have however had one trip when I did something stupid.

What Sleepydoc said

X 1,000,000,000

Icefire · 10/12/2015, 09:17 PM

How many person did you heard that died from a shock in an aquarium?
Like you said GFCI were installed because people did stupid thing in bath/shower.

The day you'll have real electricity leaking in a saltwater tank @ 35ppt / 0.20 Ohms/meter, that is a direct short and your breaker will trip. Not talking about "stray voltage, induced voltage"

The only way to have GFCI on a tank is to have separated outlet so if one trip, you still have other powerhead, Sometimes 2-3 hours with no flow will be enought to have fish gasping for air.

Just for fun, there is a few thread about GFI tripped, dead tank like this one, which is a desaster: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2449045

alten78 · 10/13/2015, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

How many person did you heard that died from a shock in an aquarium?
Like you said GFCI were installed because people did stupid thing in bath/shower.

How many people haven't died because a GFCI tripped? The most recent that mine tripped is when one of my halides wiring got corroded and kept tripping the outlet. I would have never had known this was happening if it weren't for the GFCI. Would I have gotten shocked or worse if it wasn't there? Maybe, but I don't want to find out. Lots of moisture and salt around a lot of electrical equipment and power, As far as I'm concerned, I prefer the safety of myself or one of my family members over what is in my glass box.

RWEngineer · 10/13/2015, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

regular breakers are designed to protect the wiring in your house, not you, and ground probes don't perform the same function.

I would never have a tank without a gfi outlet. Of all the gfi outlets i've had in houses over the last 20 years, i have never had a single one trip in the middle of the night for no reason. I have however had one trip when i did something stupid.

+1

jrp1588 · 10/13/2015, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

Sometimes 2-3 hours with no flow will be enought to have fish gasping for air.

That's gotta be in a heavily overstocked tank. I went half a day once, in the winter, in a basement. Didn't lose a single fish. I don't even think the fish noticed. They just acted like they always do during lights out.

After that, I was just running my heater and a single powerhead for 2 more days. That reminds me, I need to check if my 2-stroke backup tank generator still works.

sleepydoc · 10/13/2015, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefire

How many person did you heard that died from a shock in an aquarium?
Like you said GFCI were installed because people did stupid thing in bath/shower.

The day you'll have real electricity leaking in a saltwater tank @ 35ppt / 0.20 Ohms/meter, that is a direct short and your breaker will trip. Not talking about "stray voltage, induced voltage"

The only way to have GFCI on a tank is to have separated outlet so if one trip, you still have other powerhead, Sometimes 2-3 hours with no flow will be enought to have fish gasping for air.

Just for fun, there is a few thread about GFI tripped, dead tank like this one, which is a desaster: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2449045

Never heard from the people that died. They're dead.

A breaker trips at 15-20 amps. I'm not sure what your definition of 'real electricity' is, but ventricular fibrillation is induced between 100 and 200 mA. There was a tragic case many years ago where a kid passed out at a party and his friends thought it would be funny to wire him up to an electric cord to 'shock him awake.' They had a switch that they briefly flipped on every once in a while to give him a shock. Except that the switch was actually on and they were briefly flipping it off. They electrocuted him quite nicely, but the circuit breaker never blew. To be blunt, anyone claiming that a 15 amp breaker will protect people from electrocution is at best misinformed, at worst ignorant and reckless.

If you'd worried about a GFCI tripping and the tank dying from loss of power, a ground probe could easily do the same thing with the circuit breaker, so advocating the use of ground probes in place of GFCIs fails to address the problem.

Stray voltage is meaningless; it's how much current that voltage can drive that is the issue. Likewise induced voltage can be just as dangerous as 'regular' voltage. Note that a GFCI will not protect you from induced voltages.

I do not claim that GFCIs are flawless. Nor will they eliminate every shock, and thankfully not every shock that occurs without a GFCI will be fatal, but they will dramatically improve your odds.

Splitting a tank between two circuits is never a bad idea; I've heard plenty of cases where something else on the circuit caused it to trip, a bad power bar, etc. anything to add redundancy is helpful. Compromising safety is just not an option in my opinion.

If you choose not to protect yourself, that's your own choice, but I find advising people to forego recommended, proven (and in some cases legally required) safety measures based on an incomplete understanding of the physics and physiology to be irresponsible.

Harry Muscle · 10/14/2015, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Never heard from the people that died. They're dead.

A breaker trips at 15-20 amps. I'm not sure what your definition of 'real electricity' is, but ventricular fibrillation is induced between 100 and 200 mA. There was a tragic case many years ago where a kid passed out at a party and his friends thought it would be funny to wire him up to an electric cord to 'shock him awake.' They had a switch that they briefly flipped on every once in a while to give him a shock. Except that the switch was actually on and they were briefly flipping it off. They electrocuted him quite nicely, but the circuit breaker never blew. To be blunt, anyone claiming that a 15 amp breaker will protect people from electrocution is at best misinformed, at worst ignorant and reckless.

If you'd worried about a GFCI tripping and the tank dying from loss of power, a ground probe could easily do the same thing with the circuit breaker, so advocating the use of ground probes in place of GFCIs fails to address the problem.

Stray voltage is meaningless; it's how much current that voltage can drive that is the issue. Likewise induced voltage can be just as dangerous as 'regular' voltage. Note that a GFCI will not protect you from induced voltages.

I do not claim that GFCIs are flawless. Nor will they eliminate every shock, and thankfully not every shock that occurs without a GFCI will be fatal, but they will dramatically improve your odds.

Splitting a tank between two circuits is never a bad idea; I've heard plenty of cases where something else on the circuit caused it to trip, a bad power bar, etc. anything to add redundancy is helpful. Compromising safety is just not an option in my opinion.

If you choose not to protect yourself, that's your own choice, but I find advising people to forego recommended, proven (and in some cases legally required) safety measures based on an incomplete understanding of the physics and physiology to be irresponsible.

I couldn't agree more.

Harry

alton · 10/15/2015, 06:01 AM

Sleepydoc covered most of it and is fairly accurate except the part of a breaker tripping at 15 - 20 amps. A 20 amp breaker will trip most times at 20 amps if the panel is 87F. In the winter and your panel is outside or in the garage with a temp of 40 or below and it can take 30 to 40 amps depending on the temperature to trip. I have seen several plugs and cords that burned because they were rated at 15 amps and could not hold up during the large current draw from a bad heater that created a giant resister out of a friends aquarium. Remember our tanks are insulated holding all voltages and currents until we make the grounding path, at that time hopefully out GFCI's will protect us not from shock, but from death. One last thing if you have been shacked from your tank you where probably wearing shoes which help insulate and protected you from the major part of the shock. Water and electricity are a dangerous mix, please take extra steps to protect yourself. One rule is before you place your had in your tank, tap the top of the water with a finger before just reaching in. It is better to get a little zap than a big shock.

10/08/2015, 07:45 PM	#3
Harry_Y Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: NY Posts: 454	Can you just wore up a dedicated circuit? __________________ . 180 Gallon Reef with Basement Sump, Apex Controller, Hamilton Cebu Sun Light, Lifereef Skimmer and Calcium Reactor.

10/12/2015, 09:17 PM	#19
Icefire Seasoned reefer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In Quebec, Canada Posts: 3,653	How many person did you heard that died from a shock in an aquarium? Like you said GFCI were installed because people did stupid thing in bath/shower. The day you'll have real electricity leaking in a saltwater tank @ 35ppt / 0.20 Ohms/meter, that is a direct short and your breaker will trip. Not talking about "stray voltage, induced voltage" The only way to have GFCI on a tank is to have separated outlet so if one trip, you still have other powerhead, Sometimes 2-3 hours with no flow will be enought to have fish gasping for air. Just for fun, there is a few thread about GFI tripped, dead tank like this one, which is a desaster: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2449045 __________________ Temp 80F, PH 8.5-8.0, Alk 6.8-7.2, Ca 430, Mg 1700, NO3 0-0.25, PO4 0.04, 34.4 PPT Lights @ 100% all others, 35% White Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 120lbs live rocks, Hydra52 2x120W, 2 MP40+ 1 MP10 @ 70%, Phosban 550 GFO+Carbon, 200W Heater, SWC Skimmer, Kalk ATO, 150 gpd RODI Last edited by Icefire; 10/12/2015 at 09:27 PM.

10/08/2015, 05:22 PM	#1
expo703 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 311	GFCI Question - receptacle install fail So #1 my house is old and I don't have a ground wire. I guess my box might be grounded IDK i'm know nothing about electrical. #2 my wires are aluminum not copper = fail. This is my setup now. So instead of installing a breaker(assuming those wires are not copper either) I bought these shack buster portable GFCI adapters and will plug in my apex and another power surge to it here is a picture. Does this have me covered? If so I will just return this receptacle outlet tomorrow! (btw the second one is actually plugged into the wall outlet but with a 1" extension cable like this one) I wasn't able to fit both into the wall outlet flush b.c they were too bulky. Thanks! Last edited by expo703; 10/08/2015 at 05:29 PM.

10/08/2015, 07:30 PM	#2
Gorgok Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 1,904	If you lose power do those come back on with it, or need to clicky button to fix them (the latter is common in my experience)? If its the latter i would take the risk of shock over the inconvenience of clicky buttons... Or run a new wire to that outlet and do it right.

10/09/2015, 09:15 AM	#9
reelredfish Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: DFW,Area Posts: 798	You may not like this but without a ground I would be concerned also the larger issue at hand is the fact that this is alum. wire. They stopped using it for a reason it caused a lot of house fires back in the day. If you own the home you may want to plan out having a new box put in and all new wires ran. I understand this would be a large job but better to be safe than sorry.

10/09/2015, 12:15 PM	#11
alton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Zuehl, Texas Posts: 4,460	Aluminum back in the 70's sucked, it was brittle and broke. Todays aluminum is made to copper standards, but not made in #12 or #10. If your home is not grounded and a receptacle is changed it needs to be a GFCI with a sticker that states this receptacle is not grounded. When you make that change since there are no more CU/Al receptacles you will need to pigtail the receptacle with #12 copper wire and then use purple wirenuts made for cu/al connections. Older devices had screws that where made from brass and where soft and connected to aluminum wire, todays screws on devices are steel and a not compatible with aluminum wire. And like someone mentioned GCFI doesn't stop you from getting shocked, but hopefully it safes your life.

10/11/2015, 04:20 PM	#14
expo703 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 311	Well I have a APEX hooked up now so I will get notified if they ever turn off for some reason..

10/12/2015, 06:03 AM	#17
alton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Zuehl, Texas Posts: 4,460	I believe the Op stated there was not a ground wire? So a grounding probe is worthless, a metal box nailed to a wood stud is not a grounding means.

10/15/2015, 06:01 AM	#25
alton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Zuehl, Texas Posts: 4,460	Sleepydoc covered most of it and is fairly accurate except the part of a breaker tripping at 15 - 20 amps. A 20 amp breaker will trip most times at 20 amps if the panel is 87F. In the winter and your panel is outside or in the garage with a temp of 40 or below and it can take 30 to 40 amps depending on the temperature to trip. I have seen several plugs and cords that burned because they were rated at 15 amps and could not hold up during the large current draw from a bad heater that created a giant resister out of a friends aquarium. Remember our tanks are insulated holding all voltages and currents until we make the grounding path, at that time hopefully out GFCI's will protect us not from shock, but from death. One last thing if you have been shacked from your tank you where probably wearing shoes which help insulate and protected you from the major part of the shock. Water and electricity are a dangerous mix, please take extra steps to protect yourself. One rule is before you place your had in your tank, tap the top of the water with a finger before just reaching in. It is better to get a little zap than a big shock.