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Unread 11/01/2015, 01:11 AM   #2126
Kazalla
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In this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl0I-LKTm-s
you can clearly see the flagellum of gymnodinium, it also shows that a high light intensity isn't very useful for viewing it.

Sincerely, Dennis


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Unread 11/01/2015, 01:23 AM   #2127
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Cool


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Unread 11/01/2015, 02:47 AM   #2128
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Here in Iceland they are called groves-algae because the all have them.

I always took the word dino for a short for dynamo because of the ability of motion.
The flagellates are more than one.
They are really thin and close to impossible to get all in focus on a conventional microscope.

The pictures below are worth a 1000 words.
The last one is labeled Ostreopsis Ovata.










Last edited by DNA; 11/01/2015 at 02:53 AM.
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Unread 11/01/2015, 03:24 AM   #2129
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Since we agree on that lack of plankton is common in dino infested tanks we need to establish if dinos decimated them or if decimated plankton brings on the dinos.
I think we can take it as a fact that dinos have the ability to at least keep plankton down.

We have yet to go full force on the plankton. It's in abundance in the ocean.
There are companies that skim the ocean for plankton on a large scale. Over here the sea is too cold for reef plankton, but in the US there must be several.
If I lived there I'd visit one with a huge bucket and ask for a dense mix from their scoop.

In a small tank, replacing all of the live rock could possibly turn the tide.

We do not know what plankton competes with dinos or if it's bacteria or virus or a combination of several things.
Natural seawater could be interesting to try out, but it would have to be reef compatible.

A healthy tank does not need a continuous supply of plankton and a I think the dozes could be too small.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 03:40 AM   #2130
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We often find that our dino infested tanks have zero nitrates.
I've three times added live rock to see nitrates rise and seen improvement in SPS as a result.
On the last occasion nitrate levels only rose to the lowest detectable level on my Salifert test kit.
At the same time there was no change in dino densities so nitrates could be a factor in SPS health in tanks that have dinos.

I've also found out that Turbinaria and SPS like Acropora alternate in health and growth.
They dislike the condition that the other likes.
I've had at least three periods showing this and learned from others that Turbinaria is unaffected with palytoxin while there is mass death in Acropora.

For more than a year I had Cheatomorpha that I never harvested, then something changed and it's been growing well for a long time now.
There are few absolute values when you have dinos, just endless parameters that are hard to figure out.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 04:40 AM   #2131
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Yesterday, I dipped the pinnigorgia sp. into distilled water, because it was the first coral that had dinos growing on its tips. Today there are dinos everywhere on that pinnigorgia sp. Maybe because the freshwater bath also killed dino competitive organisms on the coral skin . Now they are gone and the dinos have free space to spread. Maybe I should take a closer look into the bacterial fauna that lives on a coral infested with dinos and one that is not infested...

Sincerely, Dennis


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Unread 11/01/2015, 08:35 AM   #2132
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Nope. Not at all. If they eat the dinos it's a different story
Copepods eat dinoflagellates. One of the few things that consume them.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 11:25 AM   #2133
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Has anyone use garf grunge?


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Unread 11/01/2015, 11:51 AM   #2134
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That looks perfect. How'd you come across that? I've never heard of it


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Unread 11/01/2015, 12:22 PM   #2135
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Old school. No idea if they're still operating.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 03:17 PM   #2136
Kazalla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvMiBo View Post
Copepods eat dinoflagellates. One of the few things that consume them.
And Nematodes eat that brown coloured excretions (mucus?) the dinos produce.

Sincerely, Dennis


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Unread 11/01/2015, 04:00 PM   #2137
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Has anyone use garf grunge?
I used Garf Grunge, was disappointed, couldn't find any life in it, not even with the microscope.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 04:56 PM   #2138
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that's disappointing. If a retailer can prove that their rocks/grunge will fight off dinos, that would be a game changer (for them too).

I imagine a video with a healthy tank and a sick tank. You take a dino infested rock and put it in the tank with the healthy microbiome. The next morning and for the rest of the week, the rock is clean and stays clean while the rest of the healthy tank is unaffected.

That would be good live rock.

Then the scientists step in and study the plankton in the healthy tank and isolate the dino killers. It's probably a team sport, but these smary guys figure it out.

Then they cultivate them and sell bottles of the stuff. Then we can close this thread.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 06:24 PM   #2139
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The problem we also have is the density of cysts in the substrate/sand, in the ocean if the dinos transform into cysts, most of them will be taken away by sea currents into deeper ocean layers with much plankton that will feed on the dino cysts or they are lost because they sink into the deep sea, they will never see the sunlight again. Only a few survive. In our reeftanks if nothing eats them in the substrate, they only have to wait for suitable conditions. The mortality rate is low. I read somewhere in this thread the cyst form has a lifetime of about 100 years... This little fellows are true masters of surviving in harsh environments.

Sincerely, Dennis


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Unread 11/01/2015, 06:48 PM   #2140
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There's a species of dinoflagellate (Oxyrrhis marina) that eats other dinos. If someone could just culture that we'd all be good. You could make a killing! I've seen ciliates apparently consuming dinos also.

I don't think eradicating dinos from an aquarium is ever going to be possible. Even if you somehow killed every living dino and cyst, the odds of reintroducing them have to be close to 100%. Do coral dips even kill dinos/cysts to begin with? I dipped all my corals with CoralRX and still got them. Given that they're so ubiquitous in nature, I think we have to go with developing a robust enough ecosystem that they're held in check.

re microscopy: ro water seemed to lyse the cells instantly, I'll try buffering it. I'm sure I'm not looking at diatoms, but it would be interesting to see the movement of the flagella.

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Unread 11/01/2015, 08:23 PM   #2141
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The point isn't to exterminate the dinos. It is to develop an immune system by introducing their predators. They will always exist in small concentrations, but never reach infection or plague levels.


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Unread 11/01/2015, 08:27 PM   #2142
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I wonder if a large water change from a mature tank will work. The idea is to extract as much of the dinos and then simultaneously introduce the micro biome of the healthy tank.

The closest similarity is when people with compromised micro biomes receive fecal transplants from very healthy donors. This introduces the missing bacteria and results in a significant improvement in health.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy


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Unread 11/01/2015, 09:21 PM   #2143
Kazalla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I wonder if a large water change from a mature tank will work. The idea is to extract as much of the dinos and then simultaneously introduce the micro biome of the healthy tank.
The amount of free swimming organisms of the size of a dino or bigger is sadly very very small in our reeftanks...

Sincerely, Dennis

EDIT: Today I'll buy some phytoplankton and start the breeding of a few cultures.



Last edited by Kazalla; 11/01/2015 at 09:43 PM.
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Unread 11/01/2015, 10:06 PM   #2144
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I was wondering if someone could help me out.I have had a successful reef tank for many years and just upgraded recently to a reefer 450. I sold all coral except a few pieces. I used all my old rock and added new sand. My new tank looked great for about 2 months, and then my glass started getting could, and slimy. All the sudden my rock was covered with long brown stringy snot like substance that I would have to blow off 20min after lights were on. It started to attach to any piece on the coral and they would close slowly killing them. My sand it covered and its like a matt. If I blow it of it floats like stings of bubbles. I tried Chemi Clean and that did nothing. I just went out today and bought a new CUC because mine is all dead. This has been going on for about 3months, and I am not sure but this past week seems not as bad, or I am getting use to it LOL. How can I be sure of what I have?


TI Derek


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Unread 11/01/2015, 10:21 PM   #2145
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Hi Derek, a microscope (even one for kids) is useful for identification, because you have to differentiate if you have a dinoflagellates, diatoms or a golden algae (Chrysophyceae) infestation. They look very similar.

Sincerely, Dennis

EDIT: It's also possible to have a mixed infestation, I have a mix of dinoflagellates (ostreopsis sp. and an unidentified dino type) and some diatoms.

EDIT2: Without a microscope you can identify:
Cyanobacteria: By adding a sample of them into strong clear alcohol with an alcohol by volume greater than 40% (e.g. vodka) -> if there are cyanos they will color the alcohol red.

Dinoflagellates: By rubbing a sample of them between your fingers -> Dinoflagellates have a distinctive awful odor. Please wash your hands after this method or use disposable gloves, some Dinoflagellates containing toxins!



Last edited by Kazalla; 11/01/2015 at 11:13 PM.
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Unread 11/02/2015, 12:10 AM   #2146
Kazalla
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It isn't uncommon for new tanks in the running-in phase (I think your tank is in that phase, even though you use your old live rocks but you have only a few corals in that tank = the length of the running-in phase increases plus no competition against dinoflagellates) that a temporary dinoflagellates infestation can occur. If that is the case the dinos will disappear after a while. I've read often about it in discussion boards.

Sincerely, Dennis


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Unread 11/02/2015, 05:32 AM   #2147
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Than you you for the reply. I set this tank up and it was going to be my "last tank" so let make it a nice one. I have spent a ton of money on it and at this point ready to take it all down. What you said sounds like what might be happening. I have a huge bloom, and was actually embarrassed to have people stop by, and the has been going on about 3 months, the last week or so they do seem to be decreasing. I only have fish, as all corals are dead. I was wondering if I should dose peroxide, or just try and wit it out at this point? I have a dosing pumps, so it wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks derek


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Unread 11/02/2015, 07:09 AM   #2148
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If you have no corals in this tank and also no anemones then I would try the lights out method. Corals are weakened by the dino toxins and there is a chance to kill them with this method. A dying anemone can release toxins into the water that can crash your tanks ecology. Not all types of dinos need light, some feed on other organisms but its worth a try.

Cover the tank with several layers of blankets or something like that, the more dark the tank is, the more it will impact on the dino population. Then wait for 3-5 days, in that time don't switch on the light in the tank or remove the blankets, not even for seconds! Sometimes you need to do a second lights out phase to wipe them out.

If the dinos are killed the dino clusters will begin to change its color from brown to grey/white. Prepare yourself than to deal with some Cyanobacterias (siphon them out) but they are nothing compared to the dino infestation.

Sincerely, Dennis

EDIT: There are reports that only one measure is often not enough to defeat dinos. A combination of two different methods has a higher success rate. About dosing peroxide: I can't help you with that sorry, but be careful if you use this stuff.



Last edited by Kazalla; 11/02/2015 at 07:29 AM.
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Unread 11/02/2015, 08:03 AM   #2149
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I absolutely agree with Karimwassef. My dino war began as the result of a marine algae killer. Even though I followed the directions completely, the bio system was trashed allowing the dinosaur to start. UV sterilizer is a MUST. Jump starting the competition with as much live phyto/pods as you can get will tip the nutrient consumption back in favor of the good guy critters. Be ready for a lot of skimmer action as the dead dinos pile up, otherwise you are just setting up the next boutique if you don't. Good luck.


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Unread 11/02/2015, 10:01 AM   #2150
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Quote:
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I agree 100% with these statements.
I am presently helping a fellow reefer battle a dino problem, his is a new system that he started with dead rock and 2 inches of caribsea seaflor special that he seeded with some live rock , he let the tank cycle for a few months then added some fish and a cuc. He thought he had a persistent diatom bloom and asked what I thought, I put a sample under the microscope and saw Ostreopsis Ovata. He has no coraline algae to speak of, no green micro algae on the glass and half of his sand bed has turned solid. We started slowly removing the sand bed and began the dirty method, his po4 and no3 are not detectable, began dosing phyto and pods and running 10uM filter socks, stopped skimming and water changes and only running 1/4 the carbon.
It's been about 3 weeks now and things are looking much better.

My problem started after decimating my micro fauna with algae x.

I am now 22 weeks dino free, back to my 200uM filter socks, doing regular weekly water changes, still dosing 400ml phyto daily and culturing and adding pods regularly. Po4 is .04 and no3 is 6ppm, coraline algae is growing strong, tank and inhabitants look great.
I had Ostreopsis Ovata, battled for a year, dirty method is what worked for me.
So his tank had no corals in it? Just fish and clean up crew and he still got dinos? I'm still debating whether I believe all tanks have dinos or if it has to be brought in from an infected tank.

One thing I noticed when I did have dinos was that my sand also hardened in several places. I didn't really know what to attribute that to, I thought maybe it had something to do with my calcium.


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