PLEASE check out your intended fish purchases here first!

[intenseimage]

Looking to add 1 more nice fish to the clan we have already:

75g RR with 29g sump
Bermuda BC3 Skimmer
Phosban Reactor
Carbon Reactor
Lots of live sand and rock

Tank has been running since Feb (transfer from established 20g) and all tank parameters are dead on.

Current stocklist:

(2) Osc. Clowns
(5) Blue/Green Reef Chromis
Exquisite Wrasse
Kole Tang
Yellow Watchman
Diamond Goby
(3) Emerald Crabs
Bunch O Snails
Cleaner Shrimp
Peppermint Shrimp
Pistol Shrimp
BTA
LPS
Zoos


Ideally it would be another Wrasse but the one we have now is a bit of a bully. A dwarf angel I would absolutely LOVE but are any reef-safe

[phenom5]

All right, I'm going to post this question here...seems as good of a place as any. I'm a relative noob when it comes to fish.

Tank Info. 20L Topless BB. 10g sump with Euro Reef rs80. 43x turnover. 4x24 Tek Light.

Current Stock. Royal gramma, various astraea, nassarius & hitchhiker snails, a few hermits, and some micro brittle stars.

Future Stock. SPS...as many as I can fit into my little tank.

I've had the royal gramma for around 5 years now. He's always been the only fish in the tank...previously he was the lone fish in a 10g. I'd love to add another fish. I've tried a few clowns when I moved him to the 20 with no luck. He's a mean old bugger, and is pretty territorial.

I'd like to add a wrasse. Probably not a sixline. I was thinking about Filamented Flasher Wrasse, or a Multicolored Lubbock's Wrasse.

Questions.

Am I pushing it as far as tank size goes?

How would either of these fish do with in a tank with a bit of a bully gramma?

Are either of these big jumpers? (Dr F&S says they are, but I find Dr F&S's descriptions to be a bit generic at times.)

If not a wrasse, any suggestions? I'm looking for something reef-safe, and colorful, that won't try to carpet (or in my case, hardwood) surf, and that will hold it's own against the territorial gramma.

[Sk8r]

Intense, you might possibly manage a mandarin, but you might have to set up a fuge if the wrasse is noshing on pods. A single firefish---the purples are most intense color. They are jumpers, so be warned. A royal gramma would hold its own in there. Just a few of a number of possibilities.

Phenom, the flashers are beautiful...the carpenter's is one of my favorites, too. I don't think you'd be pushing it with a small wrasse...but you might need to take jump precautions at first. Bird netting is good. I've observed that wrasses pretty well hold their own, so do grammas, and even (shudder) orchid dottybacks. The reason I say (shudder) is because those fish, while beautiful, are too smart to catch and they are prone to nip. I've had a yellow dottyback with a gramma and had no trouble, because the dottyback was itself at war with two damsels and the clowns. But they are tough. And if you should want it out, you would be in for it.
Jumpers---ANY fish will jump when it finds what's after it too large and the angle wrong for it to reach the bottom or the rocks. It's an escape tactic that doesn't work well in tanks. Shallow tanks mean more jumpers. So there's more chance they will in a 20L. (is that 20 liter or 20 Long?) if its 20 gallons, you could consider 2 cardinals or one blue phase bluegreen chromis---chromises are damsels, and are pretty good at escaping trouble. And always active. Also a single flasher wrasse could hold his own, I'm pretty sure.

[phenom5]

Originally posted by Sk8r

Phenom, the flashers are beautiful...the carpenter's is one of my favorites, too. I don't think you'd be pushing it with a small wrasse...but you might need to take jump precautions at first. Bird netting is good. I've observed that wrasses pretty well hold their own, so do grammas, and even (shudder) orchid dottybacks. The reason I say (shudder) is because those fish, while beautiful, are too smart to catch and they are prone to nip. I've had a yellow dottyback with a gramma and had no trouble, because the dottyback was itself at war with two damsels and the clowns. But they are tough. And if you should want it out, you would be in for it.
Jumpers---ANY fish will jump when it finds what's after it too large and the angle wrong for it to reach the bottom or the rocks. It's an escape tactic that doesn't work well in tanks. Shallow tanks mean more jumpers. So there's more chance they will in a 20L. (is that 20 liter or 20 Long?) if its 20 gallons, you could consider 2 cardinals or one blue phase bluegreen chromis---chromises are damsels, and are pretty good at escaping trouble. And always active. Also a single flasher wrasse could hold his own, I'm pretty sure.

Thanks Sk8r. 20 Long btw, sorry for the confusion. I guess it makes sense that any fish will jump if the situation calls for it. I do not want to add anything over the tank, that would ruin the topless look...but it's a dangerous world outside of my tank...hardwoods, excessive amounts of air & a lack of water...and of course, the deadly jaws of a 9 month old chocolate lab. The Flasher wrasse would be my first choice, and I've also thought about a chromis.

Thanks again. I'm heading to the LFS today to check out some frags, so I'll have to see what they've got.

[FranktheTankTx]

Originally posted by Sk8r
"Is the Twin Spot Goby the same as the Two-Spot Goby (Signigobius biocellatus)? It's on the list of fish I want. I don't think you can keep more than one unless you're going to keep a mated pair. And I'm not really sure how much they rely on the sandbed for their food, but you may not have enough of a sandbed for two, anyway. Especially considering your clean up crew."-----

That's a very good point: gobies of the same species will fight. Often it's a lot of mouth-measuring and little biting among the tiniest of the species, but unless the larger guys go into quarantine together and go into the tank together, you may have one chewed-up fish left.

A sandsifter goby (yellow watchman) will cover about 50 gallons of bottom territory. They will often eat other things than detritus, but the diamond goby is notoriously unwilling to do so, and covers about 75g of bottom. I don't know the twinspot, but would suspect they're like the yellow watchman (ywg) in scope and behavior. And the ywg will fight a mirror...and kill a tankmate.

TO TEST AGGRESSION LEVEL: hold a mirror near the glass. If the fish you want to pair attacks the mirror---you're going to have that fight in your tank if you put another in. Do the mirror test.

Good responses!

I think I've read multiple times that the Twin Spot Goby prefers to be kept in pairs. But, one is fine with me.

I think I changed my tune on the Fridmani... since I will keep shrimp in the tank, I may go for a Blackcap Basslet instead. My last Psuedo kept looking at my Coral Banded kind of **** eyed until they finally threw down. Psuedo won.

I haven't decided upon what shrimp... but this tank is about housing things I've never owned before. So while I have owned a Coral Banded... I have not owned a Cleaner or Fire shrimp.

As for the Clowns... I've never owned a Tomato or Black & White. Wish I could have both... but know I can't. Undecided what I'll end up doing.

So it might look something like this (in this order)...

Twin Spot Goby (1 or 2)
Blackcap Basslet (1)

Simultaneously - Clown & Flame Angel (undecided on Tomato or Black & White)

That would be a low - medium bio load on a 54g with 65g total water volume.

[inachu]

Ok If I buy:
Puffer
Electric eel
Shark
Dragon fish
Octopus


in the same tank which would come out as the lone survivor?

[intenseimage]

Originally posted by Sk8r
[B]Intense, you might possibly manage a mandarin, but you might have to set up a fuge if the wrasse is noshing on pods. A single firefish---the purples are most intense color. They are jumpers, so be warned. A royal gramma would hold its own in there. Just a few of a number of possibilities.

I dont want to risk a mandarin. Would the firefish be ok with 2 gobies who get a bit territorial at times (nothing major just some fin raising lol).

I do have eggcrate for the wrasse so jumpers should be OK

I Royal Gramma is definitely a possibility -- what about black cap basslets?

If I am adding smaller fish would I be able to do 2 of them instead of a single larger species like a dwarf angel?

[rfd515]

75g RR currently cycling
29g sump/fuge
Coralife SuperSkimmer120
95lbs live sand
80ish lbs live rock
Will run carbon and phosban passively in sock filter

Stocking will begin in a few weeks with the following (in order), with each being seperated by 1 or more weeks:

1x Diamond goby
2x tank-raised clowns
1x Kole Tang

[Jay1982]

Originally posted by inachu
Ok If I buy:
Puffer
Electric eel
Shark
Dragon fish
Octopus


in the same tank which would come out as the lone survivor?

No mermaid?

[mindytoy]

so no one has had a dwarf lionfish? thanx sk8r

[jerome736]

67g Tank (36"x24"x18"), with a 30g Sump/fuge. Plenty of LR.

Current stocklist:
2x onyx clowns
1x 6-line wrasse
Corals.

Variety of CUC across the board (snails, hermits, etc).

I want to add 3 Blue Reef Chromis and potentially a goby of some sort (undecided). Any concerns?

[Sk8r]

One person said dwarf lions were fussy eaters, wanting shrimp...I think it was on page 2.

lol---the only 'impossible' eater I ever had (ghost eel) was easy for me to feed---it ate most of the fish in my tank and was very happy...I was new to salt, stupid, and thought it was pretty. Until it ate 300.00 worth of fish. So I figure---every appetite can be pleased---for a price.

Understand what you're getting into with the red clowns, tomato or maroon, or cinnamon---they max out quite large (5" max) and have a large, zealously defended territory.

jerome: nothing can catch a chromis (except a ghost eel) and they're canny. I'd recommend the yellow watchman as personable and capable of hiding if things go bad.

inachu, that's not a stocking list: it's a recipe for fish stew.

firefish, outside of hating each other, get along fine with other species. Like chromis, they kill each other if they think the tank is overcrowded with their species. Mine is very happy as king of a 54 g.
other dartfish: the barred, the blue gudgeon, the scissortail, all insane jumpers (screen your overflow) but very neat fish.
And to my surprise I've heard good things lately about the chalk basslet, that it's quite mild-dispositioned. They're beautiful fish who look as if they have water-ripple emblazoned on their heads.

[Sk8r]

One of the best ways to fish-shop is to go to a site like liveaquaria.com (first on the list) and then go down the sites of our various sponsors. They tell you a lot about the fish and may show you some you had no idea existed.

My own tank is all tiny fish: highfin goby pair (yes, you can do two for the biomass of one: it's not how many fish you have: it's how much they add to the tank) My two largest fish: a yellow watchman and a starry blenny. A firefish. A blue phase green chromis, a very fat mandarin (fuge!), 4 obnoxious but interesting peppermint shrimp, a pearly yellow-headed jawfish, and a (thank goodness!) FAT rainford goby. I don't recommend the rainfords to new tanks: I watch this guy eat and can't tell what he's eating. He's an inch long, goes here and there pulling at the base of any algae he can find (I've deliberately let my tank be dirty to bring this fellow along, because most starve to death). His diet will change as he grows, I hope, because I really want to clean up my tank, and I know my corals will appreciate it. But so far so good, for this minuscule fish that will max out at 2". I've been unable to interest him in anything but what grows in the tank. The starry---an escape artist: it took my lfs the better part of an hour to catch him. Don't even ask about his affinity to overflows. But he's one of the most wonderful of combtooth blennies: changes colors almost as fast as a squid.

Note: re that, it's not the number, it's the biomass; sandsifters don't really count heavily in your fish count; they process what's there that otherwise would rot in your tank, so they're almost zero. Algae eaters are zero UNTIL you have to supplement their food with nori or spirulina: then they count double, and are bringing unwanted phosphate into your tank hand over fin. Meat eaters are the worst/heaviest hitters in the biomass contest, and messy meat eaters who don't clean up after themselves are the worst of the worst for hitting your sandbed hard. Plus those rascals often eat all the cleanup crew for appetizers. So there you are with a food-scattering meateater with no bristleworms, no snails, no crabs---and you pretty well have to use a particulate filter to get rid of the excess, which sort of dooms you always to have a little nitrate at your very best. Unfortunately these bad boys encompass some beautiful fish, but, ouch, if only they didn't eat the cleanup crew.

Of course---the thing to do is have a fuge supporting these guys, a big fuge with a fullblown cleanup crew in there, large as you can manage. And THEN you can still get rid of the filters.

[smspring]

Any thoughts on my original post?

Originally posted by smspring
Sk8r - great thread, thank you. I just noticed you live in Spokane. We moved here about 3 years ago, would love to see your setup.

Here is where I'm at today:

75 Gal
20 Gal sump
~90 lbs LR
2-4 in SB
tank about 5 months old

Currently have:
4 inch Yellow Tang
Orange spotted goby
Bi-Color Angel (until I decide to bait and hook him out)
Scott's Fairy Wrasse
Bi-Color Psueodchromis
Peppermint and Cleaner Shrimp
Variety of snails and hermits

Considering:
Pair of percula clowns
and/or
3 green/blue Chromies

Or am I max'd out now? If not, any other recommendations?

I plan on adding corals down the road... I know I'll need to get rid of the angel before I do that... dreading the thought though.

[CraigSlice]

75g reef tank, sumpless
octopus bh-300f skimmer
90+ pounds of LR
100 pounds of sandbad
tank 4-5 months old

Currently have:
2 O. clowns
1 blue/green Chromi
1 Lawnmower blenny
2 cleaner shrimp
CUC: 15 nass snails 15 hermits 12 astraea snails 1 fighting conch


Thinking of what fish to add next, and i think ive narrowed it down between 2: Diamond Goby or Yellow Tang

I have dirty sandbed that i would love to be clean, but also have some calputera(sp?) growing on my rocks that i am trying to control and i believe that the tang would help some in that battle.
Both are one my fish list (also on list is a flame angel that i am reconsidering since i dont want it to eat my corals)

Ive also considered a firefish, but heard they are known jumpers

[Sk8r]

Firefish should be born with wings.

Nope. Even if a flame angel starts out well, there's no guarantee over time...nosh!
And it will always be your priciest!

I'd say the yellow tang might be good. Another option---and check this out--I think the purple tang is the same size class, and is another color variant for your tank. The purples have a rep for temper, bu they're perfect gentlemen around cigarshaped fish: just pancake fish that set them off. Like other tangs, angels, etc. The only risk is the clowns pushing a tang, but that could be either tang, and clowns don't make the kind of movements that usually get a tail slap from the tang.

[Vauche]

Currently have 2 ocellaris clowns and 1 cleaner shrimp, plus multitude of snails. Just getting into corals. Most other details should be below (size, sump, LR ect.)

My goal = Mandarin, big reason for the tank being set up the way it is with all that rock.

Fish that I'm looking at: idea being color, color, color and small
1-2 Flasher/Fairy wrasse:Labout's Fairy Wrasse (or the like)
1-2Dart fish- fire goby
2-PJ Cardinal Fish
1-Royal gramma
1-Chalk Bass
1-Black Sailfin Blenny
Any goby on substrate (small in size): like Gold Neon Eviota Goby

Fish that I like but probably out due to LR insertion on top of sand (not secured for digging).
Jawfish
shrimp gobies

My problem really is competition for food. I'm finding it hard to determine who will be competition for the pods. I'm pretty sure Royal gramma, PJ cardinal would be fine. However it is the wrasses and dartfish and gobies that I can't determine with any confidence. Some say no wrasses others say flasher/fairy are fine because they occupy a different niche (i.e. not on substrate) on the reef.

Any help, alternative fish to look into, what to look for in the research, heck even a place to continue reasearch would be cool. As an FYI I have crossed reference all fish (wrasses, gobies, ect.) on wetwebmedia with fishbase.org (which if you aren't a marine biologist is almost totally pointless to me).

I'm sure there's more, but thanks for any info, if any info.

[Sk8r]

I had a filamented fairy wrasse that did in a rainford and a highfin goby. I have a mandarin, no trouble with the wrasse with her, and I also have a starry blenny, much like the black sailfin. No problems. Firefish no problem.
Of shrimp gobies the yellow watchman himself doesn't dig much: paired with a tiger pistol shrimp, major digging.
I'd recommend for a jawfish the pearly: very small, minimum disturbance: mine nests in the gsp.
I'd say you're good with that. 20g fuge, you can support a mandarin right now if that's in full flower. The ONLY problem will be the wrasse eating some of his/her pods. the 6 line wrasse is a pita in that department.

[KarlBob]

Originally posted by inachu
Ok If I buy:
Puffer
Electric eel
Shark
Dragon fish
Octopus


in the same tank which would come out as the lone survivor?

The lone survivor would be the mantis shrimp that hitchhiked in with your live rock.

[greggnyce]

Mindytoy I had a dwarf lionfish, What do you plan on keeping with it?

[Sk8r]

Greg, I think she is after general information about what she CAN keep with it, what it eats, behavior, any data you can think of.

[Puterguru]

I have a 125 FOWLR
Currently have a:
Picasso Trigger
Achillis Tang
Golden Eye Sleeper
Foxface

I was wondering if an Angler Fish or a Leaf Fish would be compatible with what I have.

DFS says not Triggers and Anglers aren't compatible but the Leaf Fish and Triggers are?

Thanks.

[greggnyce]

They have to be fed gut loaded ghost shrimp or sm-med size freeze dreid shrimp. Mine never ate frozen foods or pellets. It will eat anything that it thinks will fit in its mouth. IMO I would only keep it with larger aggressive fish. It is a very cool fish to observe and feeding it was fun (if you have the time). It also create alot of waste eating the shrimp so for beginers it may be hard to keep your water parameters in check. I would keep one in a FOWLR system, but too many things for it eat in a reef system.

[RyanDragon]

35 gallons FOWLR some mushrooms and polyps
1 clarkii clown
5 damsels,
30 lbs of LR
10 lbs of base rock
30 lbs of nature sea sand( not live)
5 discoroma(spelling) mushroom
1 green button polyps colony
1 green zoa
3 turbo snails
4 nassarius snail
1 bristle worm
2 blue legs hermit crabs
a hang on protein skimmer
Maxi jet 1200 and Maxi Jet 600

Please tell me if that is good ?

[Sk8r]

Well, you're not actually a FOWLR: you're a softie reef.
You ARE going to need a much larger tank very soon: like about 75-100 g to keep those fish comfortably. The clarkii's will hit 3" easily, up to 4" each, and damsels in general run an easy 3" up, except chromis, that usually stop at 2". The clarkii's will want about 30g all to themselves when they start breeding.

My recommendation would be to look for a good used 100g tank/stand and let it be known in the household you have a birthday and would love just to be allowed to buy a tank instead of having present. You could then still use your equipment: nothing you've got requires too high a circulation, maybe get a hangon-downflow and use that 35 for a sump, which would get the protein skimmer out of sight, maybe add one more mj 1200. Ultimately you would need more equipment, but that would keep your current fish in comfort: you'd need to get more rock in there.
Your sand is now live: if washed in discarded salt water would be fine to reuse. You'd need more of it. You'd need more base rock, and if you add it piece at a time, you should escape having a cycle, though you should test water often during this process. These creatures are all quite hardy and should be ok.
Your alternative would be to trade back the damsels and keep just the clarkii's. But if you could upgrade in size you would have a nice rig with a tough crew that would survive the transition ok and leave you with a fullscale setup you could upgrade gradually to larger pumps, more shrooms and zoas, etc. It would probably take some advising along the way, but it would be doable.