DSB in a bucket for nitrate control - Page 4

Cody Ray · 08/26/2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

I have 1100 gph going through a 20 gall marsh refugium with 3" of sugar fine oolitic sand... and all from a 1" nozzle! Not a grain of sand disturbed, so to speak.

What pump are you using to create all of that flow?

A.G · 09/06/2005, 04:20 AM

Hi guys,

I am posting to tell every one that I have tried the remote DSB bucket in my 80g tank and am happy to say that my Nitrate is undetectable.

I had problem with maintaining corals coloration for over a year because of nitrate . All my corals are regainign their colors back after 3 weeks of installing the DSB bucket.I have not done any changes to my setup exept for the DSB bucket. I used 5g bucket with very fine dry sand collected from a beach.I had over 50ppm No3 and believe me I have tried every thing to get it down.Thanks to Anthony am now back on the track

.

If any one had a Q about my DSB please feel free to ask.

A.G

Marcelog · 09/06/2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by A.G
If any one had a Q about my DSB please feel free to ask.

How much flow do you have going through it (pump)? How much sand/water (inches).?

You said ask

Marcelo -

A.G · 09/06/2005, 07:31 AM

am using pump rated for 250gph.Sand is about 10-11" deep

captbunzo · 09/06/2005, 07:45 AM

Again, I say, way too stinking cool...

Anthony Calfo · 09/06/2005, 01:57 PM

Thanks AG

A.G · 09/06/2005, 03:06 PM

Thank you Anthony

Cody Ray · 09/06/2005, 08:43 PM

Marine Biology all the WAY!!!

trmiv · 10/04/2005, 01:07 PM

Bringing this back from the dead. Any more updates from people who have done this? I really want to try this on my new 75, but I really don't have a clue how I would plumb this.

Since the primary purpose of this is nitrate reduction, could this be used in place of a macro algae refugium? If I went that way, I could do this under my stand with an elevated bucket, pump water up to it from my sump, and let it drain by bulkhead down to the sump.

Would the best way to do this be to plumb the bulkheads (supply and drain) on opposite sides of the bucket? That way the water enters one side at the top, flows over the sand, and drains out the other side? Would I want both at the same level, or one higher than the other?

captbunzo · 10/04/2005, 01:17 PM

I think you are pretty much right on.

trmiv · 10/04/2005, 04:19 PM

OK, I might have to give this a try.

So would one 5g bucket cut it for a 75g tank, or should I do more?

Cody Ray · 10/04/2005, 07:40 PM

I'd say bigger is better, but some is better than none (wasn't THAT helpful

)

trmiv · 10/04/2005, 08:33 PM

Well I'd like to do like two 5 gallon, or a 20 gallon, but I don't think more than one 5 gallon, and maybe like a 2.5 gallon bucket would fit under my stand with my sump under there.

Cody Ray · 10/04/2005, 09:42 PM

I would say a 15 high would be your best bet

trmiv · 10/04/2005, 11:45 PM

Yea, that might work. Seems like a bucket would be the easiet setup though. I'll have to see what I have room for when I get my new stand.

My question is, is this method of nitrate reduction more efficient than macro algae growth? Would I gain addition beneft from also growing and pruning macro in addition to this method? Note that I'm not referring to a "refugium" but simply a macro algae growing area the sump.

Anthony Calfo · 10/05/2005, 12:12 AM

macroalgae in the sump cannot even begin to compare in potential (its inferior) in this application if typical.

trmiv · 10/05/2005, 12:33 AM

Ahh, nice. I can then supplement this with phosban in a reactor to reduce phosphate. I'm going to give this a go on my new 75, I'll try to get two buckets under the stand, but we'll see how it goes. 1 at least. With my large horizontal overflows flowing directly into my ASM G1X recirculating, DSB in a bucket, and a phosban reactor, I should be able to stay on top of my nutrients well.

Only thing that I need to worry about is the logistics of this. How I'm going to cram it under my stand, how to plumb, how to return back to the sump, etc.

Cody Ray · 10/05/2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

macroalgae in the sump cannot even begin to compare in potential (its inferior) in this application if typical.

I don't mean to sound argumentative in any way, but do you have any proof of this? I have never heard this before, and I would be more than grateful to see some supporting research for this theory/fact.

superedge88 · 10/05/2005, 09:36 PM

While plants are good at using up nitrates and the like, they are usually not the only form exportation used in a tank simply because they are not very efficient at using up these nasties (at least in the amounts that we would like them to) A pound for pound comparison would not be very fair between the potential of nitrate reduction in macroalgae grow out vs. DSB. The sheer amount of surface area that a DSB has that can hold the anaerobic bacterial colony is staggering, while the surface area of macroalgae for the consumption of nitrate in direct comparison is not even close to that of the DSB. Lighting a macroalgae grow out area constantly is not really an option, so with the day and night lighting periods the consumption of nitrate is not a 24/7 mechanism, while the DSB is a constant mechanism for the reduction of nitrate. While I have not given you any real proof, I think that I may have hopefully made a couple of good points that may make things a bit more clear as to why the DSB in a bucket has a greater potential to remove nitrates than your average size macroalgae grow out tank.

trmiv · 10/05/2005, 09:51 PM

This does sound like a great idea, I'm doing it for sure. Only question is HOW I'm going to do it.

I noticed regular silica sand was mentioned above. Would there be any benefit to using small grain aragonite or something like miracle mud?

superedge88 · 10/05/2005, 09:54 PM

YES, If you use aragonite sand you will be adding to your tank's ph buffering ability. Even more benefits to adding a bucket full of sand to the tank!

Cody Ray · 10/05/2005, 10:18 PM

I see your point, however, (and this is anecdotal) I have had better results from macroalgae than sand. I think maybe a combination of the two would be best. My biggest issue with sand is that if there is a spike in nitrate (for reasons unknown) the bacteria can't catch up fast enough to prevent lose of life. If the same happens with macroalgae, it simply grows faster.

superedge88 · 10/05/2005, 10:24 PM

When you state that you have had better luck with macroalgae than sand are you talking about the DSB in a bucket? OR are you talking about sand bed (maybe 6") in the main tank? I am specifically referring to the DSB in a bucket (over 12" deep, unlit, high flow over surface)

Cody Ray · 10/05/2005, 10:30 PM

I have run sand both ways. I actually used a fluval filter and just filled it with sand, leaving a few inches. I never noticed any difference in nitrates. When I had a regular DSB, I allways had high nitrates. With macroalgae, I have NO nitrates. Like I said, this is anecdotal, so it might just be my system.

superedge88 · 10/05/2005, 10:59 PM

The low nitrates may also be from your feeding habits, low fish load and the like. Good to hear that you are enjoying super low nitrates!

09/06/2005, 04:20 AM	#77
A.G Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: ME Posts: 450	Hi guys, I am posting to tell every one that I have tried the remote DSB bucket in my 80g tank and am happy to say that my Nitrate is undetectable. I had problem with maintaining corals coloration for over a year because of nitrate . All my corals are regainign their colors back after 3 weeks of installing the DSB bucket.I have not done any changes to my setup exept for the DSB bucket. I used 5g bucket with very fine dry sand collected from a beach.I had over 50ppm No3 and believe me I have tried every thing to get it down.Thanks to Anthony am now back on the track . If any one had a Q about my DSB please feel free to ask. A.G __________________ A.G Current Tank Info: DIY 75g Tank, 15g Sump, 2x150MH ROIII, re-circulating ASM G2 skimmer, 2 x 1100 SEIOs, Tunze Osmolator Universal 3155, DIY moon light, DIY kalk reactor, 1/2 hp chiller

09/06/2005, 07:31 AM	#79
A.G Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: ME Posts: 450	am using pump rated for 250gph.Sand is about 10-11" deep __________________ A.G Current Tank Info: DIY 75g Tank, 15g Sump, 2x150MH ROIII, re-circulating ASM G2 skimmer, 2 x 1100 SEIOs, Tunze Osmolator Universal 3155, DIY moon light, DIY kalk reactor, 1/2 hp chiller

09/06/2005, 07:45 AM	#80
captbunzo Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Ascot, Berkshire, England Posts: 3,950	Again, I say, way too stinking cool... __________________ Paul Thompson South Ascot, Berkshire, England RK: Where only bad things happen fast... CRAZY 4 the CRASE - Sometime 2008 Current Tank Info: 180 litre UK Reef

09/06/2005, 01:57 PM	#81
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	Thanks AG __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

09/06/2005, 03:06 PM	#82
A.G Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: ME Posts: 450	Thank you Anthony __________________ A.G Current Tank Info: DIY 75g Tank, 15g Sump, 2x150MH ROIII, re-circulating ASM G2 skimmer, 2 x 1100 SEIOs, Tunze Osmolator Universal 3155, DIY moon light, DIY kalk reactor, 1/2 hp chiller

09/06/2005, 08:43 PM	#83
Cody Ray Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,101	Marine Biology all the WAY!!! __________________ Limit 1 stupid question per day Current Tank Info: Mr. Aqua 7.5g bowfront

10/04/2005, 01:07 PM	#84
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	Bringing this back from the dead. Any more updates from people who have done this? I really want to try this on my new 75, but I really don't have a clue how I would plumb this. Since the primary purpose of this is nitrate reduction, could this be used in place of a macro algae refugium? If I went that way, I could do this under my stand with an elevated bucket, pump water up to it from my sump, and let it drain by bulkhead down to the sump. Would the best way to do this be to plumb the bulkheads (supply and drain) on opposite sides of the bucket? That way the water enters one side at the top, flows over the sand, and drains out the other side? Would I want both at the same level, or one higher than the other? __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/04/2005, 01:17 PM	#85
captbunzo Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Ascot, Berkshire, England Posts: 3,950	I think you are pretty much right on. __________________ Paul Thompson South Ascot, Berkshire, England RK: Where only bad things happen fast... CRAZY 4 the CRASE - Sometime 2008 Current Tank Info: 180 litre UK Reef

10/04/2005, 04:19 PM	#86
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	OK, I might have to give this a try. So would one 5g bucket cut it for a 75g tank, or should I do more? __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/04/2005, 07:40 PM	#87
Cody Ray Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,101	I'd say bigger is better, but some is better than none (wasn't THAT helpful ) __________________ Limit 1 stupid question per day Current Tank Info: Mr. Aqua 7.5g bowfront

10/04/2005, 08:33 PM	#88
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	Well I'd like to do like two 5 gallon, or a 20 gallon, but I don't think more than one 5 gallon, and maybe like a 2.5 gallon bucket would fit under my stand with my sump under there. __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/04/2005, 09:42 PM	#89
Cody Ray Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,101	I would say a 15 high would be your best bet __________________ Limit 1 stupid question per day Current Tank Info: Mr. Aqua 7.5g bowfront

10/04/2005, 11:45 PM	#90
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	Yea, that might work. Seems like a bucket would be the easiet setup though. I'll have to see what I have room for when I get my new stand. My question is, is this method of nitrate reduction more efficient than macro algae growth? Would I gain addition beneft from also growing and pruning macro in addition to this method? Note that I'm not referring to a "refugium" but simply a macro algae growing area the sump. __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/05/2005, 12:12 AM	#91
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	macroalgae in the sump cannot even begin to compare in potential (its inferior) in this application if typical. __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

10/05/2005, 12:33 AM	#92
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	Ahh, nice. I can then supplement this with phosban in a reactor to reduce phosphate. I'm going to give this a go on my new 75, I'll try to get two buckets under the stand, but we'll see how it goes. 1 at least. With my large horizontal overflows flowing directly into my ASM G1X recirculating, DSB in a bucket, and a phosban reactor, I should be able to stay on top of my nutrients well. Only thing that I need to worry about is the logistics of this. How I'm going to cram it under my stand, how to plumb, how to return back to the sump, etc. __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/05/2005, 09:36 PM	#94
superedge88 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 827	While plants are good at using up nitrates and the like, they are usually not the only form exportation used in a tank simply because they are not very efficient at using up these nasties (at least in the amounts that we would like them to) A pound for pound comparison would not be very fair between the potential of nitrate reduction in macroalgae grow out vs. DSB. The sheer amount of surface area that a DSB has that can hold the anaerobic bacterial colony is staggering, while the surface area of macroalgae for the consumption of nitrate in direct comparison is not even close to that of the DSB. Lighting a macroalgae grow out area constantly is not really an option, so with the day and night lighting periods the consumption of nitrate is not a 24/7 mechanism, while the DSB is a constant mechanism for the reduction of nitrate. While I have not given you any real proof, I think that I may have hopefully made a couple of good points that may make things a bit more clear as to why the DSB in a bucket has a greater potential to remove nitrates than your average size macroalgae grow out tank. __________________ DRILL IT!!! Current Tank Info: In charge of over 50,000 gallons of fish only tanks

10/05/2005, 09:51 PM	#95
trmiv Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,082	This does sound like a great idea, I'm doing it for sure. Only question is HOW I'm going to do it. I noticed regular silica sand was mentioned above. Would there be any benefit to using small grain aragonite or something like miracle mud? __________________ Current tank: Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return

10/05/2005, 09:54 PM	#96
superedge88 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 827	YES, If you use aragonite sand you will be adding to your tank's ph buffering ability. Even more benefits to adding a bucket full of sand to the tank! __________________ DRILL IT!!! Current Tank Info: In charge of over 50,000 gallons of fish only tanks

10/05/2005, 10:18 PM	#97
Cody Ray Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,101	I see your point, however, (and this is anecdotal) I have had better results from macroalgae than sand. I think maybe a combination of the two would be best. My biggest issue with sand is that if there is a spike in nitrate (for reasons unknown) the bacteria can't catch up fast enough to prevent lose of life. If the same happens with macroalgae, it simply grows faster. __________________ Limit 1 stupid question per day Current Tank Info: Mr. Aqua 7.5g bowfront

10/05/2005, 10:24 PM	#98
superedge88 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 827	When you state that you have had better luck with macroalgae than sand are you talking about the DSB in a bucket? OR are you talking about sand bed (maybe 6") in the main tank? I am specifically referring to the DSB in a bucket (over 12" deep, unlit, high flow over surface) __________________ DRILL IT!!! Current Tank Info: In charge of over 50,000 gallons of fish only tanks

10/05/2005, 10:30 PM	#99
Cody Ray Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,101	I have run sand both ways. I actually used a fluval filter and just filled it with sand, leaving a few inches. I never noticed any difference in nitrates. When I had a regular DSB, I allways had high nitrates. With macroalgae, I have NO nitrates. Like I said, this is anecdotal, so it might just be my system. __________________ Limit 1 stupid question per day Current Tank Info: Mr. Aqua 7.5g bowfront

10/05/2005, 10:59 PM	#100
superedge88 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 827	The low nitrates may also be from your feeding habits, low fish load and the like. Good to hear that you are enjoying super low nitrates! __________________ DRILL IT!!! Current Tank Info: In charge of over 50,000 gallons of fish only tanks