how to prepare for coral

nfored · 11/19/2012, 03:26 PM

So I have been readin that my tank needs to be running for 6 months to a year to get stable. So my understanding is stable params ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate. I would assume the alk, calcium and mag would become unstable as soon as i add coral as such dosing is needed.

My question is about the posphates and nitrates. I think i wil go with the red sea n03p04-x. However do i really need to keep nitrates down to 1ppm for the whole time? seems that its a waste of chemicals to keep nitrates that low for a fowlr tank. I saw fowlr since it will only have fish in it until i have waited long enough for coral.

I guess I just dont understand exactly what i am waiting for to stabilize?

coralsnaked · 11/19/2012, 04:05 PM

FOWLR tanks do not require the water params to be nearly as stable as a reef tank. And reef tanks with only soft corals do not need to be as stable as a reef tank w/ stony corals IE: SPS and LPS.

Adding corals should not make your Ca, Mg and Alk unstable, but over time you wil see some depletion w/ stony corals as they metabolize these for their skeletal growth. However unless the coral load is heavy then many times water changes w/ a quality reef salt will suffice. But frequent testing is mandatory to determine if supplimentation is needed as all tanks will vary in specific needs. Quite frequently it is Alk that will fall the fastest and Mg fall the slowest w/ Ca in the middle.

The biggest thing to remeber about preparing for a reef tank is to have stable parameters. You don't want to have big swings going on with your foundation elements or your pH, which ideally should be about 8.3. Your Higher Alk levels should stabalize your pH levels w' are dictated by CO2 exchange (good aireation). this can be accomplished as easily as setting return nozzles on tank to break the water causing good ripples and by running a skimmer which also aireates. pH is important but stable Alk levels are more important. pH can run from 7.8 - 8.4 and be safe, but try to keep it to the higher end of that.

Good levels are:

Ph = 8.3
Ca = 450 ppm
Mg = 1350 ppm
Alk = 9.0 dKH

I think the Red Sea Pro tests are as good as any on the market. I do use them myself. Especially for the foundation elements Ca, Mg, and Alk. The NO3 is good as well, and although I do use the PO4 test kits by RS Pro, many will tell you a Hanna meter is the way to go, and mabe it is. The cost to run them are about the same but the inital output is about two to three timres as much. Personally i feel like I can run the color wheel pretty good, but I only utilize it to check on my GFO output. If it reads zero then I know I don not need to change it. But if it hits the next color it time for a change. Listen, algae grows at extremely low levels of PO4, anything over 0.0165 ppm and test kits will never be that accurate, I just need them to tell me it is extremely low which they do by registering zero. As far as Nitrates go. Softies like a little Nitrates in the water < 5ppm is good. But SPS is not so tolerate of 5ppm of Nitrates, they most likely will like your test equipment to read near the zero range. If you do go for Hanna meters I would stay away from the Ca meter as it is not prefected yet.

Merry Skerry

Sk8r · 11/19/2012, 04:27 PM

Corals generally (except sps, and not all of those) are not fussy. Stony wants calcium; softies don't. Softies are living filters---some can survive the cycle, tough as you could ask. So they certainly can go into a tank as early as the water is good for A fish.

Corals are divided into stony and softie. Stonies are divided into sps (colored branching sticks) and lps (fluffy corals that aren't softies.) SPS live high up in superclear water and eat mostly light and calcium, so you need a really good skimmer and meticulous water quality and even so can have troubles: sps is still the bleeding edge of reefing.
LPS is moderate to high light, is really good at filtering its own water, thank you, and grows best in slightly 'rich' water. Both these types eat calcium so fast they can deplete your tank of several tsp of calcium a day. The easy way to supplement it via your autotopoff tank ---putting lime in there---so a tank destined for a reef should have a high evaporation rate, about a gallon per 50 gallons per day.
The softie coral is even tougher---unless it's a 'named' coral you paid $50 a polyp for...Don't be crazy; don't lay out those kind of bucks for 'named' corals when you're running a very small tank with iffy water conditions and are a novice at this. The corals there's a 'buzz' about are NOT for smart beginners. Learn your skillz with plain buttons and discosoma mushrooms and leathers before you tackle things called 'supercalifragilisitic ICBM eyes of doom' and such. When you can get discosomas to divide like crazy and buttons to have all their eyelashes stretched ot the max, you're good for the 'eyes of doom' type thing, or maybe to go for the australian types or the fuzzies or the stonies.

My sig line has pretty good parameters to go for. Get them there, keep them there, keep a log book and always dose BEFORE the levels drop into 'wrong' territory. I use Salifert tests.

Do not even THINK about having ammonia in your tank with corals going on. Cultivate plenty of bristleworms and hermits and snails. Nassarius snails for the under-sand work.

And if your corals aren't happy---test: immediately. Test alk, cal, and mg. If you can keep corals, your fish will be healthier and happier. Corals complain when the water's wrong; fish just keep swimming and then go belly-up. Long as I've been in this hobby, keeping fish without corals is just scary---for that reason.

REmember as you quarantine fish to prevent parasites---you dip corals for the same reason. If a pest gets loose in your tank, you're pretty well in deep trouble. They're not easy to eradicate when they've got a whole field of zoas or stonies to nosh on.

So

nfored · 11/19/2012, 06:21 PM

Whoa now thats what I call good feed back. I have no thoughts on what coral I eventually want but likely will not be anything crazy. I hate throwing away money and would ot be happy tossing 100's in coral.

My plan is to go very slow start out with fish, and build my equipment up to the level of having coral. I have been trying to ask about each thing i buy to find out how it fits into my end goals of some cool coral. The only thing i bought with out asking about is a coral life super skimmer 125, I can replace it if needed.

I just looked at a few thing i thought might end up neat and saw these. but as it will be at least a month before fish and another 6 months or so before coral this could change as i get more knowledge.

Cerealis Acropora Coral (Acropora cerealis)
Torch Coral (Euphyllia glabrescens)
Duncanopsammia Coral (Duncanopsammia axifuga)
Brain Coral, Trachyphyllia (Trachyphyllia geoffroyi)
Chili Coral (Nephthyigorgia sp.)
Colony Polyp, "Flaming Sun" (Zoanthus sp.)
Blueberry Sea Fan (Acalycigorgia sp. ) This must be the named things you speak of says expert only

thegrun · 11/19/2012, 07:28 PM

Here is a good website listing easy to care for corals that you could start with right after a tank cycles. The only word of caution is that some of the corals listed can spread to the point of being a nuisance:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/cor...5-Easy-Corals/

Sk8r · 11/19/2012, 09:32 PM

Out of the corals you list, acropora is sps and not for beginners; torch is fine, an lps, but its cousin hammer is much faster growing and easier to place, not so aggressive. DUncans are moderate, one of the australians...Brain is ok: give it 6" from all corals downcurrent, because it has tentacles that come out at night. Chili is an 'in the dark' coral that needs spot feeding: skip this one. Zoanthid is a softie, but brown buttons are an easier start on sofies. Sea-fans are chancy and need good water quality.

My advice is either go easy lps stony (hammer, frog, candycane, brain and bubble) all of which require you add lime to your topoff reservoir (easy to do); or start with buttons and discosoma mushrooms (smooth ones) and work up to zoanthids and fuzzy mushrooms.

SaltyWenStirred · 11/20/2012, 05:53 AM

I agree with Sk8r. My parameters have been stable. My water is pristine. I have a protein skimmer. I do regular water changes. I just lost a bird's nest sps.

That's the only thing I've lost. I have a 10 headed torch coral, a small frogspawn and a hammer coral.

My LFS owner said he doesn't recommend sps. He said they are just really hard to keep. Not saying I won't try again, but if I were you I'd start off with something easier.

I just got a spotting pink mushroom for some other color and it's really cool.

gbru316 · 11/20/2012, 07:15 AM

For the most part, you don't need to use chemicals to remove nutrients.

NO3 can be removed by water changes alone, so long as the water you're using is low in NO3. Ideally, it wouldn't contain any NO3 at all.

PO4 is a little more tricky as it binds to rock and substrate. Most use GFO to lower PO4. Once the PO4 has leached out of the rock and substrate, the continuous GFO can be eliminated. At this point, GFO would only be used as needed.

Palting · 11/20/2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Out of the corals you list, acropora is sps and not for beginners; torch is fine, an lps, but its cousin hammer is much faster growing and easier to place, not so aggressive. DUncans are moderate, one of the australians...Brain is ok: give it 6" from all corals downcurrent, because it has tentacles that come out at night. Chili is an 'in the dark' coral that needs spot feeding: skip this one. Zoanthid is a softie, but brown buttons are an easier start on sofies. Sea-fans are chancy and need good water quality.

My advice is either go easy lps stony (hammer, frog, candycane, brain and bubble) all of which require you add lime to your topoff reservoir (easy to do); or start with buttons and discosoma mushrooms (smooth ones) and work up to zoanthids and fuzzy mushrooms.

Sk8r has hit a home run, again, twice now in this thread. In the above thread alone, there are multiple nuances you can read between the lines that may not be readily apparent to you at this time, so I suggest you save it and go back to it several times as you learn more about coral husbandry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfored

So I have been readin that my tank needs to be running for 6 months to a year to get stable. So my understanding is stable params ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate. I would assume the alk, calcium and mag would become unstable as soon as i add coral as such dosing is needed.

Calcium, alk and mag do not become unstable as soon as you add stony coral. There will be increased consumption, yes, but water changes can usually keep up with the demands early on. As the coral colony grows and/or as you add more consuming coral, the demand will increase and water changes become inadequate. The key is to detect when this occurs, and know what to do when it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfored

My question is about the posphates and nitrates. I think i wil go with the red sea n03p04-x. However do i really need to keep nitrates down to 1ppm for the whole time? seems that its a waste of chemicals to keep nitrates that low for a fowlr tank. I saw fowlr since it will only have fish in it until i have waited long enough for coral.

The reason behind keeping your nitrates and phosphates low in a FOWLR is that you intend to go reef eventually. Better to stay ahead and keep the problem from developing so that you are sure you can do it and keep it there before you add the coral. Much easier to keep the numbers tight from the get-go, rather than let them go up and have to deal not only with the high numbers but the associated problems they bring with them. And it's not just about using chemicals. You can do a refugium with macro, or an ATS or a well developed live rock system that has enough anaerobic bacteria to process all the nitrate to nitrogen gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfored

I guess I just dont understand exactly what i am waiting for to stabilize?

The tank never actually completely stabilizes, as the reef tank is an actual living and breathing ecosystem. What improves with time, the "stability" you are looking for, is for the tank, and you, to be able to keep the parameters stable despite the changes in this living ecosystem. Are you able to keep your nitrate/phosphates low, despite, say, a death in the tank you cannot get to or the need to increase feeding due to new livestock? If you get a coral that requires direct feeding, can your system handle the added bioload of all that food?

HTH!!

nfored · 11/20/2012, 01:06 PM

So much good advise thank you all, I will start with some mushrooms and softies then. One thing that was said was strange to me "a death you can't get to" Does this happen something dies and you have to leave it in the tank? that scares me thinking of that coming from fresh i have seen people loose half their tank to a dead fish they didn't notice.

Palting · 11/20/2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfored

So much good advise thank you all, I will start with some mushrooms and softies then. One thing that was said was strange to me "a death you can't get to" Does this happen something dies and you have to leave it in the tank? that scares me thinking of that coming from fresh i have seen people loose half their tank to a dead fish they didn't notice.

Yup, it happens. Always a good idea to remove dead things, but if you can't get to it and unless the dead thing is exceptionally large, the CUC and a healthy mature reef tank can usually handle it.

Good luck, and you certainly started right by asking all these questions first!!

11/19/2012, 03:26 PM	#1
nfored Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kansas City Missouri Posts: 157	how to prepare for coral So I have been readin that my tank needs to be running for 6 months to a year to get stable. So my understanding is stable params ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate. I would assume the alk, calcium and mag would become unstable as soon as i add coral as such dosing is needed. My question is about the posphates and nitrates. I think i wil go with the red sea n03p04-x. However do i really need to keep nitrates down to 1ppm for the whole time? seems that its a waste of chemicals to keep nitrates that low for a fowlr tank. I saw fowlr since it will only have fish in it until i have waited long enough for coral. I guess I just dont understand exactly what i am waiting for to stabilize?

11/19/2012, 04:05 PM	#2
coralsnaked Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Austin / Port Aransas, TX Posts: 1,479	FOWLR tanks do not require the water params to be nearly as stable as a reef tank. And reef tanks with only soft corals do not need to be as stable as a reef tank w/ stony corals IE: SPS and LPS. Adding corals should not make your Ca, Mg and Alk unstable, but over time you wil see some depletion w/ stony corals as they metabolize these for their skeletal growth. However unless the coral load is heavy then many times water changes w/ a quality reef salt will suffice. But frequent testing is mandatory to determine if supplimentation is needed as all tanks will vary in specific needs. Quite frequently it is Alk that will fall the fastest and Mg fall the slowest w/ Ca in the middle. The biggest thing to remeber about preparing for a reef tank is to have stable parameters. You don't want to have big swings going on with your foundation elements or your pH, which ideally should be about 8.3. Your Higher Alk levels should stabalize your pH levels w' are dictated by CO2 exchange (good aireation). this can be accomplished as easily as setting return nozzles on tank to break the water causing good ripples and by running a skimmer which also aireates. pH is important but stable Alk levels are more important. pH can run from 7.8 - 8.4 and be safe, but try to keep it to the higher end of that. Good levels are: Ph = 8.3 Ca = 450 ppm Mg = 1350 ppm Alk = 9.0 dKH I think the Red Sea Pro tests are as good as any on the market. I do use them myself. Especially for the foundation elements Ca, Mg, and Alk. The NO3 is good as well, and although I do use the PO4 test kits by RS Pro, many will tell you a Hanna meter is the way to go, and mabe it is. The cost to run them are about the same but the inital output is about two to three timres as much. Personally i feel like I can run the color wheel pretty good, but I only utilize it to check on my GFO output. If it reads zero then I know I don not need to change it. But if it hits the next color it time for a change. Listen, algae grows at extremely low levels of PO4, anything over 0.0165 ppm and test kits will never be that accurate, I just need them to tell me it is extremely low which they do by registering zero. As far as Nitrates go. Softies like a little Nitrates in the water < 5ppm is good. But SPS is not so tolerate of 5ppm of Nitrates, they most likely will like your test equipment to read near the zero range. If you do go for Hanna meters I would stay away from the Ca meter as it is not prefected yet. Merry Skerry Last edited by coralsnaked; 11/19/2012 at 04:13 PM.

11/19/2012, 04:27 PM	#3
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Corals generally (except sps, and not all of those) are not fussy. Stony wants calcium; softies don't. Softies are living filters---some can survive the cycle, tough as you could ask. So they certainly can go into a tank as early as the water is good for A fish. Corals are divided into stony and softie. Stonies are divided into sps (colored branching sticks) and lps (fluffy corals that aren't softies.) SPS live high up in superclear water and eat mostly light and calcium, so you need a really good skimmer and meticulous water quality and even so can have troubles: sps is still the bleeding edge of reefing. LPS is moderate to high light, is really good at filtering its own water, thank you, and grows best in slightly 'rich' water. Both these types eat calcium so fast they can deplete your tank of several tsp of calcium a day. The easy way to supplement it via your autotopoff tank ---putting lime in there---so a tank destined for a reef should have a high evaporation rate, about a gallon per 50 gallons per day. The softie coral is even tougher---unless it's a 'named' coral you paid $50 a polyp for...Don't be crazy; don't lay out those kind of bucks for 'named' corals when you're running a very small tank with iffy water conditions and are a novice at this. The corals there's a 'buzz' about are NOT for smart beginners. Learn your skillz with plain buttons and discosoma mushrooms and leathers before you tackle things called 'supercalifragilisitic ICBM eyes of doom' and such. When you can get discosomas to divide like crazy and buttons to have all their eyelashes stretched ot the max, you're good for the 'eyes of doom' type thing, or maybe to go for the australian types or the fuzzies or the stonies. My sig line has pretty good parameters to go for. Get them there, keep them there, keep a log book and always dose BEFORE the levels drop into 'wrong' territory. I use Salifert tests. Do not even THINK about having ammonia in your tank with corals going on. Cultivate plenty of bristleworms and hermits and snails. Nassarius snails for the under-sand work. And if your corals aren't happy---test: immediately. Test alk, cal, and mg. If you can keep corals, your fish will be healthier and happier. Corals complain when the water's wrong; fish just keep swimming and then go belly-up. Long as I've been in this hobby, keeping fish without corals is just scary---for that reason. REmember as you quarantine fish to prevent parasites---you dip corals for the same reason. If a pest gets loose in your tank, you're pretty well in deep trouble. They're not easy to eradicate when they've got a whole field of zoas or stonies to nosh on. So __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/19/2012, 09:32 PM	#6
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Out of the corals you list, acropora is sps and not for beginners; torch is fine, an lps, but its cousin hammer is much faster growing and easier to place, not so aggressive. DUncans are moderate, one of the australians...Brain is ok: give it 6" from all corals downcurrent, because it has tentacles that come out at night. Chili is an 'in the dark' coral that needs spot feeding: skip this one. Zoanthid is a softie, but brown buttons are an easier start on sofies. Sea-fans are chancy and need good water quality. My advice is either go easy lps stony (hammer, frog, candycane, brain and bubble) all of which require you add lime to your topoff reservoir (easy to do); or start with buttons and discosoma mushrooms (smooth ones) and work up to zoanthids and fuzzy mushrooms. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/20/2012, 05:53 AM	#7
SaltyWenStirred Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 245	I agree with Sk8r. My parameters have been stable. My water is pristine. I have a protein skimmer. I do regular water changes. I just lost a bird's nest sps. That's the only thing I've lost. I have a 10 headed torch coral, a small frogspawn and a hammer coral. My LFS owner said he doesn't recommend sps. He said they are just really hard to keep. Not saying I won't try again, but if I were you I'd start off with something easier. I just got a spotting pink mushroom for some other color and it's really cool. __________________ Innovative Marine 38g Nuvo Tank; Skkye 92W LED light Innovative Marine AuqaGadget - Skimmate Protein Skimmer, midsize Innovative Marine MiniMax All-In-One Media Reactor (PhosGuard) Nikon D90 35mm

11/19/2012, 06:21 PM	#4
nfored Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kansas City Missouri Posts: 157	Whoa now thats what I call good feed back. I have no thoughts on what coral I eventually want but likely will not be anything crazy. I hate throwing away money and would ot be happy tossing 100's in coral. My plan is to go very slow start out with fish, and build my equipment up to the level of having coral. I have been trying to ask about each thing i buy to find out how it fits into my end goals of some cool coral. The only thing i bought with out asking about is a coral life super skimmer 125, I can replace it if needed. I just looked at a few thing i thought might end up neat and saw these. but as it will be at least a month before fish and another 6 months or so before coral this could change as i get more knowledge. Cerealis Acropora Coral (Acropora cerealis) Torch Coral (Euphyllia glabrescens) Duncanopsammia Coral (Duncanopsammia axifuga) Brain Coral, Trachyphyllia (Trachyphyllia geoffroyi) Chili Coral (Nephthyigorgia sp.) Colony Polyp, "Flaming Sun" (Zoanthus sp.) Blueberry Sea Fan (Acalycigorgia sp. ) This must be the named things you speak of says expert only

11/19/2012, 07:28 PM	#5
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	Here is a good website listing easy to care for corals that you could start with right after a tank cycles. The only word of caution is that some of the corals listed can spread to the point of being a nuisance: http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/cor...5-Easy-Corals/

11/20/2012, 07:15 AM	#8
gbru316 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Lancaster,PA Posts: 1,720	For the most part, you don't need to use chemicals to remove nutrients. NO3 can be removed by water changes alone, so long as the water you're using is low in NO3. Ideally, it wouldn't contain any NO3 at all. PO4 is a little more tricky as it binds to rock and substrate. Most use GFO to lower PO4. Once the PO4 has leached out of the rock and substrate, the continuous GFO can be eliminated. At this point, GFO would only be used as needed.

11/20/2012, 01:06 PM	#10
nfored Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kansas City Missouri Posts: 157	So much good advise thank you all, I will start with some mushrooms and softies then. One thing that was said was strange to me "a death you can't get to" Does this happen something dies and you have to leave it in the tank? that scares me thinking of that coming from fresh i have seen people loose half their tank to a dead fish they didn't notice.