copper+reef HELP PLEASE!

[Anthony.Luciano]

ok so i know i did something stupid but please help me. a couple months back i had ich for the first time, i removed all the inverts and coral and did hypo salinity on the whole DT. i was very impatient and added about a 20-30 gallon dosage of copper to speed it up. the tank is 125 gallons with a 55 gallon sump. m getting very scared that i will never be able to have a reef again after i just built $2,000 leds. when i put the copper in the test kit never showed any copper in the tank. if anything it was below .10ppm. i kept chemi pure in the whole time and kept the skimmer on. im getting worried now because last week i put an emerald crab in and it lasted 2 days and it died. then last night i put a cleaner shrimp in and it died this morning, also i put a hammer coral in and it just dissolved and all thats left is the calcium shell. im starting to think its the copper and getting very worried. the test kit shows absolutely no copper and i have polyfiber pads in and they aren't turning blue at all. i have a bunch of hermit crabs and snail living fine in the tank its just if i add something more sensitive it dies. the only other thing i can think of is my temperature is only 71 degrees. its very hard to keep it up and im using 500 watts of heating and i plan to get another 500 watt heater because i am moving into a new house and i set up the tank the day i was supposed to move in but there were problems and its been about 4 months since then and i am moving in april first so right now the house temp is only 60 degrees thats why the water is so cold. also how can i tell if an invert dies from copper. i also have zoanthids in there and there not dead but just closed up.

[ReeferBill]

Hi Anthony C. ; I woudl run alot of carbon and keep changing it every 2 weeks until the zoas open up. Then try and add something then and see how it does. Good Luck and Happy Reefing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sk8r]

Get a product called Poly filter. Put sheets of it into your system and run it: if it turns blue in places, it is picking up copper. The good news is, it doesn't turn loose of it. Run it until it's been half a month without any blue.

If you want to be really sure, replace all sand and live rock---because it's going to leach copper slowly back into the water, insofar as it absorbed it. It will continue to do that until it's all gone. But it will slow down your recovery, and it will be difficult to know when it is done.

What I would do: I'd break down tank and sump, wash it out and dry it, then run polyfilter with salt water, and then discard that fill once you're sure there no blue tinge.

then I'd re-set up with new sand and rock and new water, and start over with a new cycle. After that it should be as good as if nothing ever happened.

[aleonn]

Sk8r, would it be possible to run an acid or vinegar soak in the rocks to remove the copper? I know people do that to remove absorbed phosphates, but am not sure about the copper part. Also, would copper also be absorbed by the silicone on the tank?

[Sk8r]

no, to both. first, the silicon absorption would be nothing to what the sand and rock might have soaked up. then, Vinegar would dissolve any calcium carbonate and free [but not dissolve] anything bound to it, but only a chemical bonding material like poly filter can actually grab the copper and hold it to be removed and tossed. It literally bonds the copper to the pad and will not give it up. Poly filter isn't cheap, but it really works. If you do start over with new rock, go 10% live and the rest dry holey limestone and give it a while. the problem with retaining the old rock and sand is if it did absorb the copper, it may release it over a long period of time, and i just wouldn't risk specimens with it.

[Anthony.Luciano]

ive been running the poly filter for about a week and it just turns brown no sign of blue at all. also how long do you think it will take for the rocks and sand to stop leaching it. theres no chance i can break down the tank again. i am only 15 and i just did a huge rebuild last month and took the whole thing down to drill overflows. please keep in mind that i only put a 20-30 gallon dose in the tank of 150 gallons total water volume so it was very low. and what is that vinegar stuff you guys were saying i might be able to try that but i cant remove the fish, there just to fast. is there any easy solution to this, nevermind theres never an easy solution lol. but anything i can do to help. i might be overreacting because it also could be the temperature, its only 72 degrees. i have a bunch of snails and hermit crabs in there and zoas so i would think they would die too i theres copper. the only things that died were an emerald crab, a hammer coral, and the shrimp. my parents were mad because i went to the store and spend 70 bucks on this stuff and it all died overnight. could it also be the temperature. and how do you tell if it was copper that killed it. thanks for all the help btw.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

no, to both. first, the silicon absorption would be nothing to what the sand and rock might have soaked up. then, Vinegar would dissolve any calcium carbonate and free [but not dissolve] anything bound to it, but only a chemical bonding material like poly filter can actually grab the copper and hold it to be removed and tossed. It literally bonds the copper to the pad and will not give it up. Poly filter isn't cheap, but it really works. If you do start over with new rock, go 10% live and the rest dry holey limestone and give it a while. the problem with retaining the old rock and sand is if it did absorb the copper, it may release it over a long period of time, and i just wouldn't risk specimens with it.

[Anthony.Luciano]

oh i just thought of something. i also have a bunch of pods living in the tank to. could this mean that it was not copper and just a bad acclimation process or something because i thought inverts were very hardy and someone told me i didn't have to acclimate it at all so i just floated it for 10 minutes and put it in. im hoping its more along the lines of this then an actual copper problem.

[spartyblaze]

It's got to be something else than copper that's causing your problem - if the phos pad isn't turning - I had a copper catastrophe at my office once, killed most of my inverts and pushed the tank back into pretty much a full cycle.

Do you think that could be what's happening to you?

[jdyer88]

some inverts are very hardy when i t comes to acclimation, but shrimp are not. they are very sensitive to changes in salinity and ph. they would not be a good barometer of whether or not copper is in your tank. IMO, If I was you, I would just start with new rock and sand. Total bummer but probably worth it in the long run. Maybe you could find a buyer for your old rock and sand that has or is starting a FOWLR tank.

[Anthony.Luciano]

no i dont think so. it was about a month or more ago that i put the small dosage in then i rebuilt the whole tank but used the same rock and took some out because there was way to much rock and i added about 100 more pounds of sand

Originally Posted by spartyblaze

It's got to be something else than copper that's causing your problem - if the phos pad isn't turning - I had a copper catastrophe at my office once, killed most of my inverts and pushed the tank back into pretty much a full cycle.

Do you think that could be what's happening to you?

[Anthony.Luciano]

i think i might have to do that but ill try acclimating the shrimp for a long time and if it lives then i wont have to do it. the only thing is, my parents would be so mad if i had to do this so i would have to save money from work and buy new rock and set up another tank for everything to live and stuff and then take out everything when there not here so when they come back it will be done and they wont be as mad as they would be if they see the huge mess as im doing it because they only complain about the messes. also do you know what i can do to test if the copper is really killing it because even on test kits it shows nothing yet my inverts and 1 coral died

Originally Posted by jdyer88

some inverts are very hardy when i t comes to acclimation, but shrimp are not. they are very sensitive to changes in salinity and ph. they would not be a good barometer of whether or not copper is in your tank. IMO, If I was you, I would just start with new rock and sand. Total bummer but probably worth it in the long run. Maybe you could find a buyer for your old rock and sand that has or is starting a FOWLR tank.

[Anthony.Luciano]

ok i just ordered another 500 watt titanium heater to fix the temp problem so 1,050 watts total of heating i will have now on 150 gallons of total water volume. i also ordered 350 ml or cuprisorb, and activated carbon. also the medicine i used was curimine. i heard this is less toxic then others, how so?

[Sk8r]

Less, yes; and cuprisorb stands a chance of getting it out.

Your best bet is to work your way up the chain of small species, and if they live, you're good. just go slowly. Also, if you don't have a fuge, build one: to a very minor extent, algaes will absorb copper. Use only cheatomorpha algae, never caulerpa.

[Anthony.Luciano]

i have a fuge with a 6 inch sandbed, chaeto, calurpa, a codium, mangroves, and mantee grass. i know how they go sexual or something like that but in the future i plan to make a seahorse tank and i need the seagrass which everyone uses calurpa.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Less, yes; and cuprisorb stands a chance of getting it out.

Your best bet is to work your way up the chain of small species, and if they live, you're good. just go slowly. Also, if you don't have a fuge, build one: to a very minor extent, algaes will absorb copper. Use only cheatomorpha algae, never caulerpa.

[Anthony.Luciano]

i also use ozone, will this help? and what is a way to make it completely leach from the rocks. i heard that having a low ph will help. can i take just the corals out and just slowely lower the ph alot. until about 6 or something. the fish should live i just dont know about the coral.

[Anthony.Luciano]

or what about just replacing about 50 pounds of the rock. will this lower it alot? i really dont want to breakdown the whole thing.

[Anthony.Luciano]

ok im bringing the rest of my coral to my friends house and getting all new rocks and sand. any recommendation about getting copper out of the silicone of the tank. also do i need to replace the sand in the refugium i added 2 weeks ago? and thanks for all the help btw.

[zigzag1]

IME, silicone will _not_ hold any meaningful amount of copper that can leach back out and cause problems.. I think silicone holding/leaching copper is an 'old wives tale' really. Just my $.02. GL!

[bnumair]

u can replace salt water 50% of it in one shot, then wait a week and replace another 50%. then do 25% every week, also use ion exchange resin like bio chem zorb. thats should reduce ur copper to near zero. i would continue to do water changes till u are very satisfied with no copper. or u can change the water out completely but u will have to go througha mini cycle a ur new water builds bacteria which should be fast.

[Anthony.Luciano]

ok i got rid of all my rock but not the sand. i had 120 pounds of sand ever since i added the copper then i added 80 more pounds like 2 weeks ago. can i just remove all the sand and stir it up and then use a powerhead going through a cuprimine bag so i don't have to replace all the sand or do i really need to replace the sand also?

[Anthony.Luciano]

Anyone have any advice for post number 20? im going to be getting my new rock on friday so i really need to know what to do with the sand now. dump it all including the 100 pounds of 1 week old sand of just stir it up like crazy in a bin and run cuprisorb and carbon and polyfiber and gfo. just to get absolutely everything out including excess phosphates and stuff. what do you think is the best bet because i would hate to throw out this sand its basically brand new and the layer under it is what was contaminated with copper along with the rock but now all the rock is gone so the only copper left in the tank is that bottom layer of sand which i see the bubbles of denitrification comming from all over so i dont think its a high enough level to harm anything. what do you guys think?

[Sk8r]

Honestly, I'd bite the bullet and get rid of the sand, because it's so hard to know which sand is which. No sense going to all this trouble and then have one last decision set you back.

[Anthony.Luciano]

ok thanks. and what about the sand in the fuge. thats all new sand but do you think i should replace it? i had carbon sitting in the overflow boxes.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Honestly, I'd bite the bullet and get rid of the sand, because it's so hard to know which sand is which. No sense going to all this trouble and then have one last decision set you back.