Lanthanum chloride

[Gary Majchrzak]

I can't help you with this one, cap- sorry!

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by captain7359

Anyone know what the reaction between the LaCl and ozone would be?

I'm currently venturi injecting ozone into a reactor (the partial one on the left with bio balls which then feed into the one on the right with more bio balls then back to the sump) and could tee in before the air inlet to the venuri to dose LaCl into the reactors. These are part of my every other monthly cleaning program and may knock enough precip out as well as give a ton of contact time. they also dump into the sump into a filter sock as a final catch all, so I could go with a 5 or 10 micron sock for final cleaning.

Still want to see one of the sand rigs since they seem to be the best option for larger systems just for comparison.

That is a great question! I can tell you that those reactors, along with the long contact time and the polishing filter sock, would be an ideal way to dose lanthanum...but I have no idea what kind of interaction the La+ and ozone would have in such high concentrations. That's a good question for Craig, William, or Randy.

I'll try and take a photo of our big sand filter dosing system this weekend. The sand filter normally processes something like 900gpm but we've dialed it down to 90gpm for the lanthanum dosing. From past usage we know that it takes a considerable amount of time for the lanthanum to react with phosphate so we don't want to flush it through the filter too fast. We use a peristaltic pump to add the diluted lanthanum to the pressure side of the sand filter pump. We dose the lanthanum at the tail end of the backwash cycle so that the filter is nice and clogged and pulling out the finest particles.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I don't remember what the dosage was when I was using the socks. I tried different dosages at that time. I also noticed that when using the socks I could not get the phophate levels down as far as I liked, no matter how much of how often I dosed. Randy Holmes Farley said that was because there was ultra fine particulate getting through the sock and my test kit would pick that up. When I read about public aquaria using sand filters with lanthanum, I thought of using my vortex diatom filter. It worked like a charm. After a treatment using the diatom filter, my photometer would give a reading of 0. There were also no ill affects from any of my animals.
I charge the filter with diatom powder and superchar norit carbon. I take 50ml of RO/DI and mix it with 10ml of Seaklear pool phosphate remover. I have a syringe pump that injects 4ml an hour of this mixture into the diatom. My total tank volume is about 550gal.
I usually have to clean and charge the filter twice, as it will become clogged with precipitate in about 2-3 hours.

Paul, do you have any photos of this in action? I am beginning to think this would be an ideal solution for our mid size exhibits (500-3,000g range).

When you say you inject the lanthanum into the filter, are you pumping it into the intake side of the filter hose? What kind of flow through the filter do you get when you first turn it on?

[reefkeeper2]

I run the tube from the syringe pump into the inlet tube of the diatom filter. The output of the vortex xl filter is approximately 400gal/hr, so for my setup it's just the right speed. I think a diatom pool filter would work better for your larger displays, and would not clog before the job was finished. You might even want to construct your own.
I noticed that you said it takes time for the lanthanum and phosphate to react and you dialed down the sand filter. This has given me an idea. The vortex filter has a small glass bell jar that holds the filter pleat and diatom powder. It must have a volume of only about a gallon or two. Now I am thinking of constructing a reaction chamber for the water and lanthanum to mix in before passing through to the vortex filter. This would provide a little more time for the reaction to take place, and might be more effecient.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I run the tube from the syringe pump into the inlet tube of the diatom filter. The output of the vortex xl filter is approximately 400gal/hr, so for my setup it's just the right speed. I think a diatom pool filter would work better for your larger displays, and would not clog before the job was finished. You might even want to construct your own.
I noticed that you said it takes time for the lanthanum and phosphate to react and you dialed down the sand filter. This has given me an idea. The vortex filter has a small glass bell jar that holds the filter pleat and diatom powder. It must have a volume of only about a gallon or two. Now I am thinking of constructing a reaction chamber for the water and lanthanum to mix in before passing through to the vortex filter. This would provide a little more time for the reaction to take place, and might be more effecient.

Hey Paul,

Your brain and mine must work the same...

We just started dosing lanthanum on small systems and the way we've been doing it is to drip diluted lanthanum into the overflow box and catch the entire tank's contents in a 10 micron filter sock at the sump. This seems inefficient to me as we're prematurely clogging the sock with all the other detritus, fish waste, etc that comes along with the system water. Creating a small side stream seems like it will make for far less maintenance of whatever mechanical filter we choose to use.

I was thinking of building something much like a simple calcium reactor type chamber, with an injection of lanthanum rather than CO2. It needn't be complicated or pressurized, even a 5 gallon bucket would work. The part that matters is a very slow turnover of tank water, say one or two tank turnovers per day, to allow the lanthanum to do its job before getting back into the system. I imagine some lanthanum carbonate will fall out of solution and end up at the bottom of the chamber if the flow through is slow enough. Then I would send the effluent through a 1 micron filter bag, or into a diatom filter if the system were large enough.

One concern with this might be that with such a small volume you could easily bottom out the phosphate and be sending free La+ ions out with the effluent--I would want to regularly test the effluent for phosphate to assure that it was much lower than the incoming water, but not below a certain threshold (say 0.05-0.10 ppm).

Hope this makes sense, thank you for the ideas and help brainstorming!

[mbeast]

Originally Posted by Matt_Wandell

Hey Paul,

Your brain and mine must work the same...

We just started dosing lanthanum on small systems and the way we've been doing it is to drip diluted lanthanum into the overflow box and catch the entire tank's contents in a 10 micron filter sock at the sump. This seems inefficient to me as we're prematurely clogging the sock with all the other detritus, fish waste, etc that comes along with the system water. Creating a small side stream seems like it will make for far less maintenance of whatever mechanical filter we choose to use.

I was thinking of building something much like a simple calcium reactor type chamber, with an injection of lanthanum rather than CO2. It needn't be complicated or pressurized, even a 5 gallon bucket would work. The part that matters is a very slow turnover of tank water, say one or two tank turnovers per day, to allow the lanthanum to do its job before getting back into the system. I imagine some lanthanum carbonate will fall out of solution and end up at the bottom of the chamber if the flow through is slow enough. Then I would send the effluent through a 1 micron filter bag, or into a diatom filter if the system were large enough.

One concern with this might be that with such a small volume you could easily bottom out the phosphate and be sending free La+ ions out with the effluent--I would want to regularly test the effluent for phosphate to assure that it was much lower than the incoming water, but not below a certain threshold (say 0.05-0.10 ppm).

Hope this makes sense, thank you for the ideas and help brainstorming!

could this problem not be solved by diluting the lanthanum more or dripping less in, might even be worth doubleing the amount of chambers untill Po4 levels are lower.

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

Now I am thinking of constructing a reaction chamber for the water and lanthanum to mix in before passing through to the vortex filter. This would provide a little more time for the reaction to take place, and might be more effecient.

Excellent idea!

[reefdogg1107]

Originally Posted by Matt_Wandell

Hey Paul,

Your brain and mine must work the same...

We just started dosing lanthanum on small systems and the way we've been doing it is to drip diluted lanthanum into the overflow box and catch the entire tank's contents in a 10 micron filter sock at the sump. This seems inefficient to me as we're prematurely clogging the sock with all the other detritus, fish waste, etc that comes along with the system water. Creating a small side stream seems like it will make for far less maintenance of whatever mechanical filter we choose to use.

I was thinking of building something much like a simple calcium reactor type chamber, with an injection of lanthanum rather than CO2. It needn't be complicated or pressurized, even a 5 gallon bucket would work. The part that matters is a very slow turnover of tank water, say one or two tank turnovers per day, to allow the lanthanum to do its job before getting back into the system. I imagine some lanthanum carbonate will fall out of solution and end up at the bottom of the chamber if the flow through is slow enough. Then I would send the effluent through a 1 micron filter bag, or into a diatom filter if the system were large enough.

One concern with this might be that with such a small volume you could easily bottom out the phosphate and be sending free La+ ions out with the effluent--I would want to regularly test the effluent for phosphate to assure that it was much lower than the incoming water, but not below a certain threshold (say 0.05-0.10 ppm).

Hope this makes sense, thank you for the ideas and help brainstorming!

I am way out my league here, but this is how I learn , but if there are no phosphates left in the system will the Lanthanum bond with more carbonate thus dropping ALK more?

[reefkeeper2]

I think what we really need is a lanthanum calculator. This would be an equation that we plug in the water phosphate level, the total tank volume and the percent lanthanum solution being used. It would then give us the approximate amount we would need to dose to do the job. We should ask Randy or another whiz on the chemistry forum to make one up for us so we can better dose our systems and lower the chances of free lanthanum getting into the tank.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by reefdogg1107

I am way out my league here, but this is how I learn , but if there are no phosphates left in the system will the Lanthanum bond with more carbonate thus dropping ALK more?

I think so. But the real concern for me would be getting free La+ ions into the tank itself.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I think what we really need is a lanthanum calculator. This would be an equation that we plug in the water phosphate level, the total tank volume and the percent lanthanum solution being used. It would then give us the approximate amount we would need to dose to do the job. We should ask Randy or another whiz on the chemistry forum to make one up for us so we can better dose our systems and lower the chances of free lanthanum getting into the tank.

Yup. I am way out of my element in the chemistry department, but I think that getting a straightforward calculator may be tricky. We know that lanthanum is more effective at higher phosphate levels, so the effect of X amount of lantanum on phosphate would not be linear. In the words of Craig Bingman, "Remember, you don't have a La+3 test kit, you just have 'lack of phosphate' as a proxy for that concentration." In general the test kits available to hobbyists for measuring orthophosphate at a low level (<0.10 ppm) are just not very accurate at all, so I think any calculator based on this variable would likewise not be very robust. In general I think people should be staying away from using lanthanum unless they have either really large or really heavily fed systems with high phosphate levels to deal with.

But I'd love to hear what Randy thinks about the calculator.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by mbeast

could this problem not be solved by diluting the lanthanum more or dripping less in, might even be worth doubleing the amount of chambers untill Po4 levels are lower.

Yeah, that's the idea. I'd want to put it in at a very low level over, say, a week with a dosing pump to keep phosphate at some threshhold. 0.10 or 0.20ppm might be good to start with...then scrub the rest with GFO.

[captain7359]

Originally Posted by Matt_Wandell

I was thinking of building something much like a simple calcium reactor type chamber, with an injection of lanthanum rather than CO2. It needn't be complicated or pressurized, even a 5 gallon bucket would work. The part that matters is a very slow turnover of tank water, say one or two tank turnovers per day, to allow the lanthanum to do its job before getting back into the system. I imagine some lanthanum carbonate will fall out of solution and end up at the bottom of the chamber if the flow through is slow enough. Then I would send the effluent through a 1 micron filter bag, or into a diatom filter if the system were large enough.

I was thing the CA reactor or side loop through a reactor would be easiest to control for regular dosing. Continuous or not is the question for our small reefs. I know Gary and TMZ do spot doses to keep their levels in check, which are abviously working well based on their #'s and looks of the tank.

The problem I'm running to with the ractor idea is that the way I see it you want a HIGH turnover of tank system water through it to make sure all the LaCl reacts and precipitates, but a reactor that also allows the precip to settle out allowing collection, but that requires a SLOW flow rate.

The LaCl calculator would be cool, but chemically it doesn't balance in real life, so not sure how umbalanced it gets at the lower levels of phosphate.

[reefkeeper2]

A calculator would not be exact, but would at give us an approximation and something to start with. Further, you could use that number conservatively, and make sure you dose well below it. Right now it's just a shot in the dark.

[NaClH2Opgh]

No calculator for the guinea pigs We are the calculators. OOO he wiped his entire tank out, I guess that was too much...

[superkat]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

No calculator for the guinea pigs We are the calculators. OOO he wiped his entire tank out, I guess that was too much...

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

No calculator for the guinea pigs We are the calculators. OOO he wiped his entire tank out, I guess that was too much...

who is this... somebody on RC?

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by captain7359

I was thing the CA reactor or side loop through a reactor would be easiest to control for regular dosing. Continuous or not is the question for our small reefs. I know Gary and TMZ do spot doses to keep their levels in check, which are abviously working well based on their #'s and looks of the tank.

The problem I'm running to with the ractor idea is that the way I see it you want a HIGH turnover of tank system water through it to make sure all the LaCl reacts and precipitates, but a reactor that also allows the precip to settle out allowing collection, but that requires a SLOW flow rate.

The LaCl calculator would be cool, but chemically it doesn't balance in real life, so not sure how umbalanced it gets at the lower levels of phosphate.

I like it. What I'd like to do is send the water through a loop: pump>lanthanum injection>lanthanum "reactor">1 micron cartridge filter>calcium reactor>GFO>sump

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

who is this... somebody on RC?

No that was just a joke saying if somebody wipes their tank out we will know it was too much...

[superkat]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

No that was just a joke saying if somebody wipes their tank out we will know it was too much...

i got it....

[Gary Majchrzak]

but I'm expecting to hear about someone who misused this treatment.
You know... the 'two aspirin are good so the whole bottle must be better' types.

[superkat]

i do know the type....lol.

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

but I'm expecting to hear about someone who misused this treatment.
You know... the 'two aspirin are good so the whole bottle must be better' types.

I see that all the time with vodka dosing they just want to jump straight to the max dose and bring their nitrates down tomorrow.

[Gravesj1s]

Originally Posted by captain7359

Anyone know what the reaction between the LaCl and ozone would be?

Hi cap,
Did you get an answer on the use of 03?
That was one of my questions in a post unanswered in this thread ,too.I dont know about the La+ but cloride can be of concern as I believe it would convert to clorine.Did you ask Randy or Craig?

Wifes got some friends and "concocktions" going on tonight catch this thread tomarrow.half there now.



I'm currently venturi injecting ozone into a reactor (the partial one on the left with bio balls which then feed into the one on the right with more bio balls then back to the sump) and could tee in before the air inlet to the venuri to dose LaCl into the reactors. These are part of my every other monthly cleaning program and may knock enough precip out as well as give a ton of contact time. they also dump into the sump into a filter sock as a final catch all, so I could go with a 5 or 10 micron sock for final cleaning.

Still want to see one of the sand rigs since they seem to be the best option for larger systems just for comparison.

[captain7359]

nothing on O3 and LaCl yet frrm the pro's.


Chem makes my head hurt, so Randy HF posting on a Q of mine would just make my head just go POP......


I'd like to hear his or others thoughts on the chemical balance of the LaCl reaction since it isn't 1:1 as it should be. What else is reacting in our mix that we aren't expecting?