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Unread 02/04/2019, 07:59 PM   #1
Joe0813
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lost with my corals

I don't get it. my SPS are browning and some bleaching/dying, some of my soft corals like my trumpet are dying away and the rest of the LPS just aren't all the way open. I have no fish since I'm going through a fallow period for ich. but here are all my levels that I've checked and with what test kit.

ALK- 9.6 Hanna Checker
Calc- 460 RedSea
Mag- 1230 RedSea
Nitrate-0 RedSea
Phosphate- .01 Hanna URL
PH- 8.1 Apex
Temp 77-78 Apex and Hanna

Lightening- 3 Radion Gen four pro at 65% from 2pm until 10pm
Flow- Two mp40 on the sides at 60% and 2 Neptune wavs on the back at 40%


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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:05 PM   #2
FishAndPhysics
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1. What is the water source you are using?

2. What all are you dosing? Any possibility an ich med was introduced to the tank?

3. How often are water changes?

4. Broadly, what is your filtration? Filter sock, skimmer, algae scrubber, biopellets, etc. What chemical media are you running?

5. How long has the tank been fallow? Did all these issues start when the tank went fallow?

6. How long as the tank been established?


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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:07 PM   #3
Finland
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If your tank is fallow, are you feeding the corals? They need to eat.


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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:14 PM   #4
Joe0813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishAndPhysics View Post
1. What is the water source you are using?
RODI water with zero TDS

2. What all are you dosing? Any possibility an ich med was introduced to the tank?
Dose Calc and ALK... no ich meds at all

3. How often are water changes?
40 gallons every 2-3 weeks

4. Broadly, what is your filtration? Filter sock, skimmer, algae scrubber, biopellets, etc. What chemical media are you running?
mesh filter socks x3, skimmer and I run carbon

5. How long has the tank been fallow? Did all these issues start when the tank went fallow?
tank has been fallow now for 2 months. It does seem that since the fish have been gone its been very hard to keep the corals looking nice

6. How long as the tank been established?
tank has been going for 3 years now



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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:15 PM   #5
Joe0813
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Quote:
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If your tank is fallow, are you feeding the corals? They need to eat.
Ive been dropping in some frozen here and there but nothing major. I actually just bought the redsea energy A and B.


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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:22 PM   #6
FishAndPhysics
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I'm going to tend to agree with the nutrient theory. An autofeeder might be an easy solution to that problem. Although I'm sure fish poo has a wealth of nutrients that decomposing food just can't offer

If your tank has been fallow for 2 months, you're nearing the 72 or 76 or whatever it is these days period for ich, so maybe this problem will resolve itself when you reintroduce the fish.


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Unread 02/04/2019, 09:31 PM   #7
Joe0813
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hopefully the redsea energy I just started using tonight will start to turn things around for the time being


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Unread 02/05/2019, 01:45 AM   #8
Tripod1404
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Since you have no fish, your alk is probably too high with respect ti nutrients levels. I would drop alk slowly to around 7-7.5 dKH.

What is your daily alk consumption? If it stopped or significantly slowed, it would indicate coral starvation. I have very similar nutrient levels and I keep my alk at 6.5-6.8 dKH and daily alk consumption is around ~13dKH equivalent.


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Unread 02/05/2019, 04:22 PM   #9
Joe0813
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I forget what my daily consumption is. I can check it over the next few days. Im also going to turn my doser down and lower the alk a bit


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Unread 02/05/2019, 09:11 PM   #10
brian3
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Perhaps the lighting is too high. I did not have color until I lowered mine. Although not Radions I had my LEDs at 55% and went to 30% and now am getting great growth and color compared to when set higher. Too much is not necessarily a good thing.


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Unread 02/07/2019, 10:25 AM   #11
Uncle99
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You post nitrate at 0....
This is too low for corals.... should be 2-5ppm


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Unread 02/07/2019, 04:13 PM   #12
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I'm trying to get it up now... I've been adding redsea reef energy now for 3 days. Hopefully it will work


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Unread 02/15/2019, 01:08 PM   #13
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I can't get my nitrate or phosphate to rise. I've tried the redsea energy A+B, keeping my skimmer off and no water changes. Both are at zero still and my corals especially SPS are starting to die. Help


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Unread 02/15/2019, 01:47 PM   #14
murphreef
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Alk is too high for such low nutrients.....

Lower to 8dkh


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Unread 02/15/2019, 06:06 PM   #15
Joe0813
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I need to check ALK again. I've stopped dosing so im sure its lower now. don't think its 8 yet though


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Unread 02/15/2019, 07:15 PM   #16
Joe0813
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and im an idiot... I switched my alk doser back on.... still at 9.4. time to search how to lower it


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Unread 02/15/2019, 08:11 PM   #17
FishAndPhysics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0813 View Post
and im an idiot... I switched my alk doser back on.... still at 9.4. time to search how to lower it
If you mean lower your alk, water changes with a low alkalinity salt. Generally "reef" salts are going to have high alk.


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Unread 02/15/2019, 08:23 PM   #18
Joe0813
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im going to buy some instant ocean and do a 20 gallon water change. even with the high alk shouldn't the reef energy be helping the corals?


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Unread 02/15/2019, 09:03 PM   #19
CAPT_Dave
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My advice: slow down. Only bad things happen fast in a reef tank.

Your corals need stability more than anything else. If they've been under your lights and are aclimated to them, don't change. If they are acclimated to your alk, don't go chasing a new number because you stopped feeding the tank. You'll just have another stability problem when the fish come home and you start feeding again.

Instead, feed your tank. Reef Energy may help but they may also need some nutrients from real food. Try target feeding with Reef Chili or Reef Roids. If you have some meaty LPS, give them a squirt of mysis shrimp. And don't rinse the shrimp. Rinsing removes the nutrients that have fallen too low in your tank.

Coral aren't the only things left in your tank that need to eat. You also need to maintain a healthy bacterial population or you risk a cycle when you reintroduce all your fish (assuming they're in quarantine...if dead then I'm sorry).

Food is what changed when you took out the fish. Fix that first.

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Unread 02/16/2019, 07:26 AM   #20
lionfish300
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I would follow CAPT Dave's advised. Take it slow


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Unread 02/16/2019, 10:55 AM   #21
Joe0813
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Seems like taking it slow though is going to finish off my SPS


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Unread 02/16/2019, 05:12 PM   #22
CAPT_Dave
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So here's my hypothesis. Just a hypothesis because, while I've read a lot of articles and posts on this I'm not going to take the time to find and site them but perhaps someone who really knows can comment. The community should feel free to disagree if you think I'm wrong.

Coral are able to adapt to a wide range of conditions but they do so very slowly. The commonly considered safe range for alkalinity is 8 - 12 dkh. That's a big range but coral die quickly when it spikes. Why? Their metabolism cannot adapt quickly to changing balance points.

You can grow even SPS corals under lights that range in cost from $100 Chinese box lights to $1400 LED sets. (They'll grow better under the higher end lights, of course, but ONLY if you don't fiddle with it all the time). That's why so many people have such success with T5s and halides. You can't change them.

My hypothesis is that while the oceans show wide ranging variation in inter-regional parameters, there is very little variation within a region. Therefore, coral species have evolved to live in many regions but they have not evolved to deal with variation in where they live as individual colonies. So they "set" their metabolism to live with the balance of nutrients, light, pH, temperature, etc. that's in the environment in which they find themselves. It's about the balance. You can change it slowly, like what happens in seasonal change, and their metabolisms will adapt but they can't keep up with rapid changes and the imbalance causes malnutrition and in extreme cases starvation.

Think about how the coral grows. It gets sugar from light through the photosynthesis in its zooxanthellae. The sugar gives its cells energy to combine minerals and elements in the water to make its skeleton and amino acids in food particles to make it's tissue. More light and minerals means more energy and more skeletal growth but if there aren't enough aminos from food their tissue can't keep up. It's all about the ratios. Over time that balance point can change and the coral's cells can adapt but not from one day to the next.

So MurphReef was right when he said your Alk was too high for such low nutrients but only if you intend to keep your nutrients there long term. If you intend to reintroduce fish, then your bio load will rise and with it the nutrients. Now you'll need to raise the alk again. That change will stress your coral. Brian3 suggested reducing light. That will reduce photosynthesis and reduce the need for aminos but may cause an imbalance in other ratios.

Corals get a lot of their aminos from fish poop but not if the fish are pooping in a different tank. Since yours are, I recommend replacing the lost bio load with food but do it slowly. Monitor all your parameters weekly to make sure you don't overdo it feeding. Sudden increase in PO4 or NO3 from decomposing food will also stress them and could upset the nutrient uptake balance you have between coral zooxanthellae and nuisance algae.

Feeding will have the added benefit of revving up your bacterial populations to deal with the sudden increase of reintroducing your fish and may avoid a mini-cycle.

Check out BRS TVs episode on feeding coral:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQm...&index=21&t=0s

You might also watch the episode on chasing NO3 and PO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHMG...&index=13&t=0s


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Unread 02/16/2019, 05:19 PM   #23
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One other thought. Do you have a cleanup crew? Have they found enough to eat since the tank has been fallow? If not, I recommend getting some before fish go in and remember, they have to eat, too.

I am particularly partial to Trocus snails. They can right themselves if they fall off the glass or rocks and will breed in your tank. I put in 5 about a year ago and am up to 14.


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Unread 02/16/2019, 07:32 PM   #24
Joe0813
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what you're saying definitely makes sense but I really think its the alk being to high with my nutrients at zero. I could be wrong though im not an expert by any means and what you're saying could definitely be a possibility. I do have a small clean up crew as of right now. I figured once I start putting the fish back in ill get some more cerith snails and some more trocus


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Unread 02/24/2019, 07:39 PM   #25
CAPT_Dave
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Sorry, just coming back to this. The problem IS alk being too high with nutrients at zero. The solution is to feed the coral so nutrients aren't zero.

Coral cannot live on light and calcium alone. Like all living things, they need food. Even plants take up nutrients from the soil. People think coral don't need to be fed because in a stocked tank with lots of fish the coral usually get enough food without squirting them with Reef Chili. Fish have pretty inefficient digestive systems so even fish poop is nutritious to coral. But with no fish and no poop and you not feeding, there is no aminos and other nutrients that can only come from food with which to make protean based tissue to cover their skeletons and make polyps, whose purpose is to catch food and eat it. Corals are predators. Its the Zooxanthellae hosted in their flesh that are plants.

I suppose you can stop skeletal growth by dropping Alk to compensate but it seems better to me to maintain a proper nutrient balance so the coral can grow, rather than just die more slowly.


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