Lanthanum chloride - Page 4

m-fine · 12/15/2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some.

Sounds like a test with smaller more frequent dosings might be in order.

Gary Majchrzak · 12/15/2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
Gary, Rapid phosphate reduction regardless of the method can cause Tridacnids to suffer some. I have read threads describing pinched mantle on clams in tanks where fast phosphate reductions occured with gfo. So it may be possible your clam is reacting to a rapid change in orthophosphate levels.

I hadn't heard that before. Thanks for sharing that info, Tom.
It makes sense.

tmz · 12/15/2008, 02:31 PM

Well, in reading back through many of the posts, there is a lot of theorizing but as is often the case, little hard information. Much of the discursion is centered on a protozoan infection endemic to clams which hypothetically may be limited by a lack of iron.
So the theory is that gfo may increase iron and enable the protozoan.Quite a stretch.
But the fact is there are numerous reports of pinched mantle following phosphate removal with several accounts of pinched mantle following the use of non iron based phosphate removers. So the common denominator is phosphate removal. There are also several reports of coral stress related to rapid diminution in phosphate levels,since it is thought they need time to adjust their phosphate gathering mechanisms.Seems as though this would apply to clams as well.

As you may already know phosphate(PO4) can inhibit abiotic precipitation in a way similar to magnesium by taking a spot on a forming calcium carbonate crystal.This property is thought to account for the decline in ph and alkalinity that sometimes accompanies rapid removal of PO4. These changes in ph and alkalinity if they are occurring could be causing the stress as well.

One other notion to explore is the relationship between NO3 and PO4,the Redfield ratio . Is it possible that as PO4 drops some of the the organisms that consume it and NO3 wane leading to an increase in nitrate and might this be causing ill effects?

Any way some things to think about.

It does seem prudent to take down phosphate ,slowly,however, and to monitor ph and akalinity while doing so. FWIW m y system does pretty well at about .1 to .15 ppm phosphate (no hair algae) a bit of turf algae. This is far higher than the .02 to.03ppm highly sought natural reef values but comfortably below the .25ppm threshold claimed to inhibit coral growth. Running carbon and or polypad might be a good idea in case there is an impurity in the lanthanum chloride.

Also, just FYI many of the posters swear by a 20 minute freshwater dip in temperature adjusted ro water to eradicate the protozoan and heal the clam. I have not tried this but will when and if I get back into keeping clams. I'll probably have a chance to try it out at SWP at some point.

Good Luck and Thanks again for keeping us informed on the lanthanum chloride effort.

Jk5 · 01/04/2009, 04:39 PM

Lanthanum chloride tested six months...

no problem if you make little po4 removals (0.01 po4 each day, until you reach your desired values).
Very important... no dosing in the tank...
lanthanum must be dilluited and dosed in 24 hours in the lanthanum reactor filtering with water floss...
Water floss is good enough catching precipitation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joanxavier

Ya hace prÃ¡cticamente seis meses desde que empecÃ© con el ensayo de adiciÃ³n del Cloruro de Lantano.
Hasta el dia de hoy mi experiencia ha sido de lo mÃ¡s positiva, ningÃºn animal ha mostrado sintomas negativos achacables al Lantano, y la reducciÃ³n de fosfatos es totalmente efectiva. En mi opiniÃ³n, estamos frente a un producto "reef safe" en condiciones de contenciÃ³n.

Os presento una idea de un diseÃ±o muy sencillo que funcionarÃ*a bastante bien, y que lo harÃ*a de forma Ã³ptima si metemos una pequeÃ±a bomba de recirculaciÃ³n dentro de la cÃ¡mara de reacciÃ³n.

El aditivo que estoy usando es le siguiente:
10 gramos de Cloruro de lantano heptahidrato (LaCl3 7H2O)
1000 ml de agua de osmÃ³sis

En funciÃ³n del litraje de nuestro acuario, y de la cantidad de fosfato que necesitemos exportar, aÃ±adiremos mÃ¡s o menos cantidad de LaCl3 7H2O
Actualmente y para mi sistema de 1000 ltrs brutos, estoy aditando 100 ml repartidas en un total de 24 dosificaciones.
Recomiendo empezar con adiciones bajas (10 ml), y controlar los fosfatos a la salida del reactor y la columna de agua. La presencia de fosfato en el agua del acuario nos dirÃ¡ si vamos bien o no.
No es recomendable que el fosfato baje de 0,003 ppm en la columna de agua. La presencia de fosfato, nos indicarÃ¡ que estamos agotando totalmente la reaccion LaCl3 7H2O / P.

La mejor opciÃ³n para aditar el aditivo de LaCl3 7H2O es mediante una peristÃ¡ltica y en dosis lo mas frecuentes y pequeÃ±as posible.

RyanEG · 01/04/2009, 04:42 PM

Hmm can anyone translate that quote for the bilingually impaired folks like myself? I knew I should have paid more attention in high school, for gods sake I was a partial spanish major!

Jk5 · 01/04/2009, 04:47 PM

automatic translation of quote
http://66.102.9.104/translate_c?hl=e...017lE2-_w_LiOA

Gary Majchrzak · 01/04/2009, 04:59 PM

thanks for sharing that info J

Jk5 · 01/04/2009, 05:06 PM

Thank you Gary...

You are in the right way.

Skimmer is not good filtering lanthanum/phosphate precipitation ...
Precipitation is bad in the fish gills and filterers animals...

It is very important (as you said) the mechanical filtration...
precipitation size is of few microns...
Water floss is good enough catching the precipitation.
IÂ´m going to find a pic with lanthanum-phosphate precipitation catched by water floss...
2 minutes...

Jk5 · 01/04/2009, 05:14 PM

zoom

Gary Majchrzak · 01/04/2009, 05:18 PM

very good photo

tmz · 01/04/2009, 05:38 PM

Very nice reactor design,jk5,.Thankyou for sharing it and your experience and dosage levels.

Does anyone know if using lanthanum chloride while using gfo is contraindicated in anyway? I don't think it is and have been using very small amounts 15 ml of Brightwell Phosphate E in 575 gal to compliment gfo which at least for now is still my mainstay for PO4 reduction.

Gary Majchrzak · 01/04/2009, 05:43 PM

oh man... you might want to ask Randy Holmes-Farley that one, Tom.

melev · 01/05/2009, 12:45 AM

Based on Jk5's translation, that goes along with my idea about dosing the skimmer itself. If you could add one drop every 10 minutes to the reaction area, I think it would work well. On my reef, I've been dosing 120 drops. Unfortunately, it would take 20 hours of dosing to pull it off, but the system would remain completely unaware of the chemical reaction since it would be focused in the skimmer body itself.

I don't ever see myself dosing a drop every 10 minutes though, all day long.

KurtsReef · 01/05/2009, 05:29 AM

If/when I dose this...which I have not bought any or dosed it yet...

I had thought of dosing into the overflow which drains into the skimmer. I should have my 10 micron socks this week, of course taking the time to stop at a pool store to find the LC will take me another month or so. There are days that dosing a drop or two into that area every 10 minutes or so would not be an issue for several hours, If I had a Phosphate meter it would be interesting to test after every hour of doing it that way.

tmz · 01/05/2009, 11:53 AM

After a 10ml dose of the Brightwell E which is already diluted at a % unknown to me, I got a drop from .22 to .13ppm in 575gallons of water per the colorimeter.

KurtsReef · 01/05/2009, 12:13 PM

What are the name brands/item name of L.C. people are using from pool stores?
Anyone find it at a local Buffalo area pool store?

(Just saving myself some leg work)

Gary Majchrzak · 01/05/2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtsReef
What are the name brands/item name of L.C. people are using from pool stores?
Anyone find it at a local Buffalo area pool store?

(Just saving myself some leg work)

http://www.seaklear.com/p_2phosphate.asp

drtango · 01/05/2009, 05:34 PM

I've used PhosClear from Leslies pool store...its a mix of Lanthanum chloride and sulfate, not sure if that matters but it workdd for me..

John

SkiFletch · 01/05/2009, 08:59 PM

I use PhosFree Plus from Leslies, only active ingredient listed is Lanthanum Chloride.

FWIW I dose directly into my 100 micron socks for a month now. Havent seen any problems with my fish, corals, or my Tridacnid clam. Occasionally the clam's mantle looks a little blotchy but I've also had troulbes with maintaining calc/alk recently now that my coral load has drastically increased demand. So I can't rule the two out of each other.

I will say that this stuff gums up filter socks quick and is significantly more difficult to get out. After washing in bleach They're still brown stained more than they used to be. Then I usually give them a soak in some muriatic acid with water which stinks something fierce but gets em nice and clean. Few rinses in RO water and one rinse in water with baking soda and They're pressed back into service. After reading that thread about DIY filter socks I'm gonna see if I can find some 10 micron material and make my own

Jk5 · 01/06/2009, 01:34 PM

you can use water floss...
when water floos is saturated in a few days you replace it...
water floss is good enough catching the precipitation...

The best method is making lanthanum reaction in a reactor and dosing in the reactor with peristaltics and filtering the reactor output with water floss.
Making very little po4 removals each day...

tmz · 01/06/2009, 08:52 PM

Mike, Where is Leslies?

dbartkow · 01/06/2009, 09:13 PM

Wow, this is pretty interesting stuff! I have a pretty small system (29 gallons) and no skimmer. As a result, I am forced to minimize the amount of food going in. I would love to be able to feed heavy and have the ability to remove any excess phosphates.

If I was to make a lanthanum reactor, would that be sufficient to remove the lanthanum/phosphate precipitation? Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this on a small system (like 30 gallons)?

Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Jk5
you can use water floss...
when water floos is saturated in a few days you replace it...
water floss is good enough catching the precipitation...

The best method is making lanthanum reaction in a reactor and dosing in the reactor with peristaltics and filtering the reactor output with water floss.
Making very little po4 removals each day...

tmz · 01/06/2009, 09:32 PM

Don't see why not but on a smaller set up GFO might be very affordable and easier.

SkiFletch · 01/06/2009, 09:48 PM

Tom, the Leslies I go to is on the corner of Bailey and Sheridan

KurtsReef · 01/13/2009, 06:27 PM

Picked some up today at a pool shop in Louisville, happened to see one and had some time to stop.

When I get home will try out this little trick...since I have the 10 micron socks now also.

12/15/2008, 02:31 PM	#78
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Well, in reading back through many of the posts, there is a lot of theorizing but as is often the case, little hard information. Much of the discursion is centered on a protozoan infection endemic to clams which hypothetically may be limited by a lack of iron. So the theory is that gfo may increase iron and enable the protozoan.Quite a stretch. But the fact is there are numerous reports of pinched mantle following phosphate removal with several accounts of pinched mantle following the use of non iron based phosphate removers. So the common denominator is phosphate removal. There are also several reports of coral stress related to rapid diminution in phosphate levels,since it is thought they need time to adjust their phosphate gathering mechanisms.Seems as though this would apply to clams as well. As you may already know phosphate(PO4) can inhibit abiotic precipitation in a way similar to magnesium by taking a spot on a forming calcium carbonate crystal.This property is thought to account for the decline in ph and alkalinity that sometimes accompanies rapid removal of PO4. These changes in ph and alkalinity if they are occurring could be causing the stress as well. One other notion to explore is the relationship between NO3 and PO4,the Redfield ratio . Is it possible that as PO4 drops some of the the organisms that consume it and NO3 wane leading to an increase in nitrate and might this be causing ill effects? Any way some things to think about. It does seem prudent to take down phosphate ,slowly,however, and to monitor ph and akalinity while doing so. FWIW m y system does pretty well at about .1 to .15 ppm phosphate (no hair algae) a bit of turf algae. This is far higher than the .02 to.03ppm highly sought natural reef values but comfortably below the .25ppm threshold claimed to inhibit coral growth. Running carbon and or polypad might be a good idea in case there is an impurity in the lanthanum chloride. Also, just FYI many of the posters swear by a 20 minute freshwater dip in temperature adjusted ro water to eradicate the protozoan and heal the clam. I have not tried this but will when and if I get back into keeping clams. I'll probably have a chance to try it out at SWP at some point. Good Luck and Thanks again for keeping us informed on the lanthanum chloride effort. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

01/04/2009, 04:42 PM	#80
RyanEG Bridge burner Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cuba,NY Posts: 1,659	Hmm can anyone translate that quote for the bilingually impaired folks like myself? I knew I should have paid more attention in high school, for gods sake I was a partial spanish major! __________________ The best place to be is here, the best time is now ~ Bill S Preston Esq, Ted Theodore Logan ludiNano-forever lounging- April 27, 2012 Current Tank Info: sold lock stock andd barrel

01/04/2009, 04:59 PM	#82
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	thanks for sharing that info J __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

01/04/2009, 05:06 PM	#83
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 326	Thank you Gary... You are in the right way. Skimmer is not good filtering lanthanum/phosphate precipitation ... Precipitation is bad in the fish gills and filterers animals... It is very important (as you said) the mechanical filtration... precipitation size is of few microns... Water floss is good enough catching the precipitation. IÂ´m going to find a pic with lanthanum-phosphate precipitation catched by water floss... 2 minutes... Last edited by Jk5; 01/04/2009 at 05:35 PM.

01/04/2009, 05:18 PM	#85
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	yes very good photo __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

01/04/2009, 04:47 PM	#81
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 326	automatic translation of quote http://66.102.9.104/translate_c?hl=e...017lE2-_w_LiOA

01/04/2009, 05:14 PM	#84
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 326	zoom

01/04/2009, 05:38 PM	#86
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Very nice reactor design,jk5,.Thankyou for sharing it and your experience and dosage levels. Does anyone know if using lanthanum chloride while using gfo is contraindicated in anyway? I don't think it is and have been using very small amounts 15 ml of Brightwell Phosphate E in 575 gal to compliment gfo which at least for now is still my mainstay for PO4 reduction. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

01/04/2009, 05:43 PM	#87
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	oh man... you might want to ask Randy Holmes-Farley that one, Tom. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

01/05/2009, 12:45 AM	#88
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Based on Jk5's translation, that goes along with my idea about dosing the skimmer itself. If you could add one drop every 10 minutes to the reaction area, I think it would work well. On my reef, I've been dosing 120 drops. Unfortunately, it would take 20 hours of dosing to pull it off, but the system would remain completely unaware of the chemical reaction since it would be focused in the skimmer body itself. I don't ever see myself dosing a drop every 10 minutes though, all day long.

01/05/2009, 05:29 AM	#89
KurtsReef Premium Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Boston, NY Posts: 2,603	If/when I dose this...which I have not bought any or dosed it yet... I had thought of dosing into the overflow which drains into the skimmer. I should have my 10 micron socks this week, of course taking the time to stop at a pool store to find the LC will take me another month or so. There are days that dosing a drop or two into that area every 10 minutes or so would not be an issue for several hours, If I had a Phosphate meter it would be interesting to test after every hour of doing it that way.

01/05/2009, 11:53 AM	#90
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	After a 10ml dose of the Brightwell E which is already diluted at a % unknown to me, I got a drop from .22 to .13ppm in 575gallons of water per the colorimeter. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

01/05/2009, 12:13 PM	#91
KurtsReef Premium Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Boston, NY Posts: 2,603	What are the name brands/item name of L.C. people are using from pool stores? Anyone find it at a local Buffalo area pool store? (Just saving myself some leg work)

01/05/2009, 05:34 PM	#93
drtango Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Williamsville, NY Posts: 1,741	I've used PhosClear from Leslies pool store...its a mix of Lanthanum chloride and sulfate, not sure if that matters but it workdd for me.. John __________________ John www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/totm/index.php Current Tank Info: 200 DD, 400w halides, low tech

01/05/2009, 08:59 PM	#94
SkiFletch Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: N Buffalo, NY Posts: 3,665	I use PhosFree Plus from Leslies, only active ingredient listed is Lanthanum Chloride. FWIW I dose directly into my 100 micron socks for a month now. Havent seen any problems with my fish, corals, or my Tridacnid clam. Occasionally the clam's mantle looks a little blotchy but I've also had troulbes with maintaining calc/alk recently now that my coral load has drastically increased demand. So I can't rule the two out of each other. I will say that this stuff gums up filter socks quick and is significantly more difficult to get out. After washing in bleach They're still brown stained more than they used to be. Then I usually give them a soak in some muriatic acid with water which stinks something fierce but gets em nice and clean. Few rinses in RO water and one rinse in water with baking soda and They're pressed back into service. After reading that thread about DIY filter socks I'm gonna see if I can find some 10 micron material and make my own __________________ You will miss 100% of the shots you dont take. Dare to dream Mike, aka Fletch Current Tank Info: 65 gallon reef

01/06/2009, 01:34 PM	#95
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 326	you can use water floss... when water floos is saturated in a few days you replace it... water floss is good enough catching the precipitation... The best method is making lanthanum reaction in a reactor and dosing in the reactor with peristaltics and filtering the reactor output with water floss. Making very little po4 removals each day...

01/06/2009, 08:52 PM	#96
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Mike, Where is Leslies? __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

01/06/2009, 09:32 PM	#98
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Don't see why not but on a smaller set up GFO might be very affordable and easier. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

01/06/2009, 09:48 PM	#99
SkiFletch Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: N Buffalo, NY Posts: 3,665	Tom, the Leslies I go to is on the corner of Bailey and Sheridan __________________ You will miss 100% of the shots you dont take. Dare to dream Mike, aka Fletch Current Tank Info: 65 gallon reef

01/13/2009, 06:27 PM	#100
KurtsReef Premium Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Boston, NY Posts: 2,603	Picked some up today at a pool shop in Louisville, happened to see one and had some time to stop. When I get home will try out this little trick...since I have the 10 micron socks now also.