My Bacteria Driven Journey

[Tswifty]

Originally posted by Aqua Keepers
Tswifty, I can see the improvement, but what are your overall opinions about your new method?

I definitely like running the "bacteria driven" system, and can see the benefits... However, I'm in a bit of a pickle right now.

I mean here are the positives... 1 month in (2 weeks MB7, 2 weeks MB7 & Vodka)

- Greater polyp extension
- Clearer water (really began to notice this past week)
- White sand... no more brown diatom type stuff building up every few days.

However, I really haven't seen a decrease in nuisance algae yet (of course it's only been 2 full weeks of vodka dosing). The biggest decrease was due to manual removal. Also, some of my corals look to be nutrient poor (lightening up), while others look great. So I'm not sure if I should begin Amino Acid dosing yet or what since there is so much nuisance algae still present? The coral you can see this the most in is the ORA Red Planet if you look at the progression pictures.

Also, my refugium is thriving again, and has filled the refugium section again... so I'm not sure if I should pull it or what?

I'm trying not to jump too far ahead. I mean looking at it realistically, I've only been at this for a little over a month.

Originally posted by sedorusc
great progress. hope to see that in mine

Thank you.

Originally posted by Stanley-Reefer
Swifty--I'm seeing similar results, but I am changing a good amount of water just to further aide stripping more nutrients and moreso to suck out the algae.

Yours looks very pale--have you hit it with a syphon to see if it'll pull off the rock? If it will, it won't come back!!!!

I haven't tried siphoning it yet. The main decrease was from manual removal the other day. So I'll be interested to see if it will come back or not. If the bacteria and carbon dosing are doing their thing, hopefully it will not be able to come back.

[rtparty]

Swifty,

I see a huge difference in the algae color! I think with as bad as your case was/is you will have to dose for a couple months.

Do you have any herbivorous fish that will eat the algae? Also I know this in the thread somewhere but how many snails and crabs do you have? May be worth getting like 15 more of each to let them munch on the algae. I have noticed when HA gets shorter strands the crabs and Mexican Turbo snails love the stuff!

That is my 2 cents.

Great thread and tank BTW!

[newsalt]

Anyone notice the smell of Microbacter7?

[AJ858]

haha yeah it smells awful! i hate it!

[newsalt]

Originally posted by AJ858
haha yeah it smells awful! i hate it!

Glad to hear you feel the same way. I thought I had a bad bottle.

[mordibv]

Glad to see the the tanks looks better . The bottle brush and green acro show great improvements .
I am wondering if cleaning the sump up did more than the dosing. I am still scratching my head on the algae issue .
That skimmer looks like it should be more than enough for the bioload .U would think it would strip that tank clean .carbon and gfo too. It looks like u run it a lil wet imho .
I have tried bac driven systems Prodibio ,Brightwell and gave up on them . I hated the black stuff on the rocks and walls . My next build will go to the supplements below with Reef BIO Activ (sorta bac type ) and BIO calcium . I will wait after I have fully encrusted rock and a back wall full of coralline algae (sorry i like the stuff ) .The bac products seem to inhibit micro and macro algae imho .
I have given my Bright well bac stuff MB7 & bio fuel to a buddy but kept the amino's ,reef snow , lugols , pottassion , replenish , marine c and restore .
Any who I'll watch ur tank blossom again .
Thanks for sharing this with us .

[newsalt]

In this thread and Sunny's thread, I read that you have to have a big skimmer. I have a 180g tank and I have an MRC MR2 Skimmer:

http://www.myreefcreations.com/MR-2-Protein-Skimmer

It has the 12" riser add-on:

http://www.myreefcreations.com/6-x12-Add-On-Riser

Is this a big enough skimmer?

[Big E]

The Paletta Pink looks horribly bleached..........can't believe that came off my colony. I don't like the look of the Red Planet either.

Instead of upping the vodka dosing, how bout going slower? The corals will handle it better. It's nice that some of the algae seems to be subsiding but some of the corals are already starving, which I believe is your current concern.

The reason the polyps are out on some acros during the day(that never were before) is because they are starving. Night polyp extension isn't enough for them like before. They are extended 24/7 to get more light/food.

Maybe you can spot feed some of the corals that are hurting?

[gavinbree]

It's worth mentioning that hair algae can leech nutrients directly from the rock, increasing vodka dosing will have very little effect, its just a matter of waiting it out until the hair algae has gone through its cycle and used up the stored nutrients in the rock.

Once you have hit ULN readings (refering to your chart from 09/05) you should be looking for the maintenance dosage not continue increasing.

I can appreciate that the algae is unsightly and you want rid of it of course, but its going to take time, hair algae is a strange thing in that one day it will be growing like mad and then a few days later it will almost vanish.

[Zedar]

Originally posted by gavinbree
It's worth mentioning that hair algae can leech nutrients directly from the rock, increasing vodka dosing will have very little effect, its just a matter of waiting it out until the hair algae has gone through its cycle and used up the stored nutrients in the rock.

Once you have hit ULN readings (refering to your chart from 09/05) you should be looking for the maintenance dosage not continue increasing.

I can appreciate that the algae is unsightly and you want rid of it of course, but its going to take time, hair algae is a strange thing in that one day it will be growing like mad and then a few days later it will almost vanish.

+1

You have nutrients stored in the rock. This will take months to remove.
Your water column is low in nutrients (hence the lighting of the acros) but the algae are still getting nutrients from the rock.

I removed my rock and cleaned it with a garden hose. The amount of gunk that i removed was astonishing.

[Tswifty]

Originally posted by rtparty
Swifty,

I see a huge difference in the algae color! I think with as bad as your case was/is you will have to dose for a couple months.

Do you have any herbivorous fish that will eat the algae? Also I know this in the thread somewhere but how many snails and crabs do you have? May be worth getting like 15 more of each to let them munch on the algae. I have noticed when HA gets shorter strands the crabs and Mexican Turbo snails love the stuff!

That is my 2 cents.

Great thread and tank BTW!

Thanks.

I have some algae eating livestock in the tank, I think I listed it all a few pages back. Anyway, I actually ended up out at the LFS this morning, and picked up a few Emerald Crabs and a small Longspine Urchin. They did have some Mexican Turbo Snails in as well, but I really didn't like the look of them.

Originally posted by mordibv
Glad to see the the tanks looks better . The bottle brush and green acro show great improvements .
I am wondering if cleaning the sump up did more than the dosing. I am still scratching my head on the algae issue .
That skimmer looks like it should be more than enough for the bioload .U would think it would strip that tank clean .carbon and gfo too. It looks like u run it a lil wet imho .
I have tried bac driven systems Prodibio ,Brightwell and gave up on them . I hated the black stuff on the rocks and walls . My next build will go to the supplements below with Reef BIO Activ (sorta bac type ) and BIO calcium . I will wait after I have fully encrusted rock and a back wall full of coralline algae (sorry i like the stuff ) .The bac products seem to inhibit micro and macro algae imho .
I have given my Bright well bac stuff MB7 & bio fuel to a buddy but kept the amino's ,reef snow , lugols , pottassion , replenish , marine c and restore .
Any who I'll watch ur tank blossom again .
Thanks for sharing this with us .

Thanks.

No worries. I like coraline algae too... just not on my walls.

The green bottlebrush acro was severely infested with redbugs at one point, and the last treatment was dosed about a week before I began the MB7. So those results may not be able to be directly related to any dosing.

Originally posted by Big E
The Paletta Pink looks horribly bleached..........can't believe that came off my colony. I don't like the look of the Red Planet either.

Instead of upping the vodka dosing, how bout going slower? The corals will handle it better. It's nice that some of the algae seems to be subsiding but some of the corals are already starving, which I believe is your current concern.

The reason the polyps are out on some acros during the day(that never were before) is because they are starving. Night polyp extension isn't enough for them like before. They are extended 24/7 to get more light/food.

Maybe you can spot feed some of the corals that are hurting?

Hey Ed,

This isn't a new development on the Paletta Pink Tip. If you recall, I picked up the piece in April (just began dosing 4 weeks ago), and honestly it's looked pretty much the same since a few weeks after that, and hasn't really grown at all. The pictures I am posting are of the corals that have looked bad for some time now (before dosing), and does not reflect to health of all the corals in the tank.

However, I think I am going to begin dosing aminos this week, and I like the idea of attempting to spot feed some of the struggling SPS.

I am ramping the vodka dosage slower now that I'm at 2.8 ml per day (as I feel that should be somewhat close to my maintenance dose), and plan on extending it out longer than the chart.

Originally posted by gavinbree
It's worth mentioning that hair algae can leech nutrients directly from the rock, increasing vodka dosing will have very little effect, its just a matter of waiting it out until the hair algae has gone through its cycle and used up the stored nutrients in the rock.

Once you have hit ULN readings (refering to your chart from 09/05) you should be looking for the maintenance dosage not continue increasing.

I can appreciate that the algae is unsightly and you want rid of it of course, but its going to take time, hair algae is a strange thing in that one day it will be growing like mad and then a few days later it will almost vanish.

Originally posted by Zedar
+1

You have nutrients stored in the rock. This will take months to remove.
Your water column is low in nutrients (hence the lighting of the acros) but the algae are still getting nutrients from the rock.

I removed my rock and cleaned it with a garden hose. The amount of gunk that i removed was astonishing.

Yep, I think I've mentioned it a few times, but especially with how fast the algae came on. I believe it's just an algae cycle from new rock that was added to the system. So hopefully it will disappear as quickly as it arrived.

A maintenance dose is going to be difficult to find since I have no detectable nutrient levels. So as I mentioned earlier, I plan on extending out the current dosages a bit longer than the chart, and will make a decision to increase or not based on my observations.

Not looking for a quick fix here guys. Just simply charting my observations and progress.

[Tswifty]

Originally posted by newsalt
Anyone notice the smell of Microbacter7?

Originally posted by AJ858
haha yeah it smells awful! i hate it!

Originally posted by newsalt
Glad to hear you feel the same way. I thought I had a bad bottle.

Yeah it definitely has a distinct odor to it.

Originally posted by newsalt
In this thread and Sunny's thread, I read that you have to have a big skimmer. I have a 180g tank and I have an MRC MR2 Skimmer:

http://www.myreefcreations.com/MR-2-Protein-Skimmer

It has the 12" riser add-on:

http://www.myreefcreations.com/6-x12-Add-On-Riser

Is this a big enough skimmer?

That's correct, my skimmer is pretty oversized. Running a big skimmer is a must with these types of systems. I'm not familiar with the performance of MRC skimmers, but I usually try and shoot for a skimmer rated twice my total water volume.

I'm actually considering a switch to the Marine Solutions Mini-S cone skimmer. Just because I like new gadgets though, my current skimmer is doing just fine.

[impur]

Glad i found this thread, i'm currently dosing vodka in my 75gal at 1.0ml/day. I'm on week 3 and obviously going very slow. I started at .6ml. I am in the same boat as you - 0 readings for NO3/PO4 but i have red turf algae that is the bane of my reefkeeping existence.

I just rec'd my MB7 and CoralAmino yesterday. I plan to start dosing the MB7 this weekend along with the vodka. I'll be starting slow with the MB7 as well, using the low nutrient dosage. I'm just too scared about overdosing. I'll start the CoralAmino when i begin to see corals lightening.

So far i've seen a few spots where the red turf algae is disappearing on frag plugs, but nothing on the rocks and overflow. Also my clam died on day 4 of vodka dosing. Not sure why the vodka caused it to die.

Anyway i'm following along as well. Very interested in your results. You've done a great job of documenting your dosing. I should do something like that

[Tswifty]

Based on some of the progression pictures, I have decided to start dosing Amino Acids. I'll be using Brightwell Aquatics CoralAmino. The recommended dose is up to 1 ml per day per 50 gallon for the first 4 weeks of use.

However, I plan on starting slowly, and am thinking 2 drops twice per week after lights out will be a good starting point. I plan on feeding frozen rotifers on these nights as well.

[Tswifty]

Originally posted by impur
Glad i found this thread, i'm currently dosing vodka in my 75gal at 1.0ml/day. I'm on week 3 and obviously going very slow. I started at .6ml. I am in the same boat as you - 0 readings for NO3/PO4 but i have red turf algae that is the bane of my reefkeeping existence.

I just rec'd my MB7 and CoralAmino yesterday. I plan to start dosing the MB7 this weekend along with the vodka. I'll be starting slow with the MB7 as well, using the low nutrient dosage. I'm just too scared about overdosing. I'll start the CoralAmino when i begin to see corals lightening.

So far i've seen a few spots where the red turf algae is disappearing on frag plugs, but nothing on the rocks and overflow. Also my clam died on day 4 of vodka dosing. Not sure why the vodka caused it to die.

Anyway i'm following along as well. Very interested in your results. You've done a great job of documenting your dosing. I should do something like that

Glad to have you along and thanks for the kind words. Sorry to hear about your clam. I'm not sure what happened there. I have 3 clams in my tank, and none have shown any negative reactions thus far.

For what it's worth. I started the Microbacter 7 with the High Nutrient dosage, and didn't see any negative results. During that time period the skimmer began pulling black sludge. Then after the 2 week seeding period subsided, and I dropped to the Low Nutrient dosage, skimmate production returned to normal. Also, I waited to begin Vodka dosing until after 2 weeks of Microbacter 7 dosing.

[Ancelot]

Hell Tswifty,

I'm running the same problem as you are facing now in your tank. Lots of HA growing and plenty of which I believe comes from my dead rocks. I believe there is some high level of phosphates and nutrients left stuck inside those rocks when I took them over so guess that's why I am getting like a hair algae outbreak! Certainly sucks but o wells. I am looking forth to get one of the giant base rock replaced with a premium liverock for better seeding and cultivation of good bacteria.

Also, can you imagine that without sugar, vodka, or Biotim/Biofuel whatever, Mb7 will not run into effect? Sorry if this sounds dumb but yeah I kind of realised it. Well so I dumped some sugar into my tank and guess what, now I have a bacteria boom! Milky water in the tank! Rahh! how bad can these go? I wonder but the good news is that I just dumped some sugar into my tank and HA seems to be dying off. So guess that's good news? haha.

Will continue monitoring your thread on your usage of vodka against HA. Perhaps I will get so ****ed off with HA that I will dump vodka and sugar together, mixed them into a strong conoction and destruct them. Shall keep you posted.

Thanks for this wonderful thread of your tank

Happy Reefing,
Marc J.

[IridescentLily]

Whoops meant to post this on your other thread, I'll delete it here and paste on other thread.

[plyle02]

Tswifty,
Running very similair approach, mb7 and vodka... I also have hair algae, bubble algae, and recently dinos... I have zero nitrates, and no hannah meter, but not testing for po4 either. I am so annoyed, I have decided to do lights out and skim wet over the next 3 days, the tank is currently covered with a blanket, I will let you know the outcome. I was running neo stones, pulled offline, not currently dosing aminos, just feeding the fish.
Good luck with your journey...

[blk94rs]

Is your guys' algae problems starting after you begin the MB7/Vodka combo, or did you have an existing problem before you started?

I am currently 1 week into seeding my tank with MB7, and am planing on starting vodka in one week from today. I have never had an algae problem of any kind (tank is 1.5 years old), so I am bit concerned that it may become a problem....?

[Ancelot]

Originally posted by blk94rs
Is your guys' algae problems starting after you begin the MB7/Vodka combo, or did you have an existing problem before you started?

I am currently 1 week into seeding my tank with MB7, and am planing on starting vodka in one week from today. I have never had an algae problem of any kind (tank is 1.5 years old), so I am bit concerned that it may become a problem....?

My algae problem starts which I believe comes from the dead LRs itself. Not exactly from overdose of vodka/sugar (I only dose half a sachet of sugar per day). So if you have some good premium cured LRs, you should be fine (:

Happy Reefing,
Marc J.

[sedorusc]

what is the best way to dose sugar? like to hear those who do it what their preference is. is it plain table sugar?

[Ancelot]

Originally posted by sedorusc
what is the best way to dose sugar? like to hear those who do it what their preference is. is it plain table sugar?

Sorry TS for running your thread like my own :X

well for me, I dose it straight into the sump (half a sachet per day). I use normal table cooking sugar, to be specific, Macdonalds' sugar. Mac is near my place and most of the time I spend my hours drinking coffee in Mac while studying. So once or twice I will bring home those unused sugar which the ladies gave me. So yeap, those go into my tank (:

Happy Reefing,
Marc J.

[Tswifty]

Originally posted by Ancelot
Hell Tswifty,

I'm running the same problem as you are facing now in your tank. Lots of HA growing and plenty of which I believe comes from my dead rocks. I believe there is some high level of phosphates and nutrients left stuck inside those rocks when I took them over so guess that's why I am getting like a hair algae outbreak! Certainly sucks but o wells. I am looking forth to get one of the giant base rock replaced with a premium liverock for better seeding and cultivation of good bacteria.

Also, can you imagine that without sugar, vodka, or Biotim/Biofuel whatever, Mb7 will not run into effect? Sorry if this sounds dumb but yeah I kind of realised it. Well so I dumped some sugar into my tank and guess what, now I have a bacteria boom! Milky water in the tank! Rahh! how bad can these go? I wonder but the good news is that I just dumped some sugar into my tank and HA seems to be dying off. So guess that's good news? haha.

Will continue monitoring your thread on your usage of vodka against HA. Perhaps I will get so ****ed off with HA that I will dump vodka and sugar together, mixed them into a strong conoction and destruct them. Shall keep you posted.

Thanks for this wonderful thread of your tank

Happy Reefing,
Marc J.

Thanks for the kind words.

Dosing Microbacter 7 (bacteria) alone certainly has its benefits. By adding MB7 you are adding to the current bacteria population in the tank which will help consume waste, outcompete bad forms of bacteria, and feed corals. I was dosing only bacteria to my tank for the first two weeks and noticed greater polyp extension, increased/darker skimmate, and no longer had issues with a diatom like dusting on the sand bed. However, for the greatest effect, yes you will want to add a carbon source. By dosing Microbacter 7 in combination with Vodka you are just trying to ensure that the good bacteria takes advantage of the carbon source rather than harmful forms.

Plenty of people dose only vodka to their system with great results. The carbon source reduces Nitrates and Phosphates, and will bloom bacteria populations which will also aid in the removal by consuming Nitrates and Phosphates during reproduction. By dosing Microbacter 7 you are just attempting to tip the scales in the favor of good vs harmful bacteria utilizing the carbon source. So it's my understanding that if you want to drop N&P levels you can dose a carbon source, or a carbon source and bacteria... but not solely bacteria.

I also would advise that you use caution when "dumping" carbon sources into your tank. Most dosages have been measured carefully and ramp up very slowly for a reason. People do use VSV (Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar) mixes as well, but I am unfamiliar with those methods as I chose to pursue only Vodka.

Good luck.

Originally posted by plyle02
Tswifty,
Running very similair approach, mb7 and vodka... I also have hair algae, bubble algae, and recently dinos... I have zero nitrates, and no hannah meter, but not testing for po4 either. I am so annoyed, I have decided to do lights out and skim wet over the next 3 days, the tank is currently covered with a blanket, I will let you know the outcome. I was running neo stones, pulled offline, not currently dosing aminos, just feeding the fish.
Good luck with your journey...

Thanks. If your seeing dinos you are supposed to cut your vodka dosage by 50% until they disappear. Also, some people increase their bacteria dosage at this time hoping that it will outcompete the dinos for food.

From the reefkeeping article:

Bacterial Blooms - High additions of carbon sources at once are noted as production of slimy white strings upon rocks or in sumps that become noticeable a few hours to a day after addition. There is no clear evidence that this is detrimental to your tank. If this is observed dropping your dose by 50% will result in the disappearance of these strands.

As far as the lights out goes... you mean like this?



I tried the lights out on an old system and found out that the algae comes right back. I ended up beating it with some good 'ol fashion elbow grease on that system though. I've learned the hard way that sometimes there's nothing you can do but wait it out, and try to manage the chaos while you do.

Good luck.

Originally posted by blk94rs
Is your guys' algae problems starting after you begin the MB7/Vodka combo, or did you have an existing problem before you started?

I am currently 1 week into seeding my tank with MB7, and am planing on starting vodka in one week from today. I have never had an algae problem of any kind (tank is 1.5 years old), so I am bit concerned that it may become a problem....?

My algae problem started before I began the system. I wouldn't worry about an algae bloom from vodka/bacteria dosing. However, you will need to watch for bacterial blooms.

One of the main reasons for seeding the tank with Microbacter 7 is to boost the good bacteria population ahead of time so that it will outcompete any bad forms of bacteria (cyano, dinos, etc...) that may also try to take advantage of the carbon source.

[dsquared]

Tswifty,
How about an update. After 2 weeks MB7 then one week of vodka........ I'm starting to see my hair algea turn white. It's patchy but definatly getting white. Bubble algea are also getting pale.
I'm at .6ml a day in 70gal water volume. I'll up the vodka .5ml's in the morning.
0 nitrate (sailfert)
no test kit for phosfate
Dave

[Tswifty]

I've got good news... This week the green hair algae has almost completely disappeared! There are are only a few areas in the tank that still even have small patches of it, and they look very light in color. However, the red "turf" algae is still hanging in there.

I plan on staying at the 2.8 ml of 40 proof vodka & 1 ml of Microbacter 7 per day.

I also recently picked up Peristaltic Dosing Pumps and plan on hooking them up today or tomorrow to dose my Ca, Alk, and Mag.