Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[Puffers]

To help keep the rubble "clean" try doing a UGF but in reserve, pump that water to a separate sump or hang on filter, then filter that water before returning it to the main tank. I know Paul B has this type of setup (reverse ugf with its own sump) and his tank is older than I am! I'm not sure how to keep all the little critters out of the UGF... I’ve even thought of putting this type of set-up on a surge to achieve more vertical movement of the water.

[algaeguy]

Puffers...

Neat to hear this kind of "out of the box" thinking on keeping these types of tanks.

I love the ideas and experimentation that people are trying. It's certainly different than the usual stuff !

Thanks for sharing!

Scott

[Paul B]

Algaeguy, as Puffers said my substrate is rubble. It started out as dolomite gravel over thirty years ago but in all those years with all the dead snail and urchin shells and all the rocks and rubble I collect it is definately a rubble bottom. I also do run a reverse UG filter and would not go any other way with that type of substrate. I occasionally stir things up with a diatom filter and suck out any detritus. Last year I lifted the UG plates for the first time in 25 years and it was relitively clean under there.
I think it looks very natural and there is no possability of hydrogen sulfate. The only problem with large rubble is that you will have no nitrate reduction from the substrate and will have to incorporate a seperate nitrate removal system. I also have some smaller grains in my substrate and some sand just to slow down the flow and offer some nitrate removal. My nitrate is zero.
Good luck and have a great day.
Paul

[algaeguy]

Thanks much, Paul.

I appreciate your input! Sounds like you may have been running a rubble bottom longer than anyone else!

Very interesting to hear about the reverse UGF as a facilitator of the rubble bottom approach!It may be time for the hobby to revisit this technology as an appropriate alternative for some approaches to marine aquarium husbandry!

I've been leaning towards utilizing larger pieces of rubble (1"-4" or 5 ") loosely stacked on each other, with lots of space in between. I am thinking of incorporating a very thin layer of mixed grain substrate (like 3/8" or 1/2") around the rubble, mostly for the aesthetic. I realize the denitification issue is probably the biggest "functional" loss of this type of bottom, along with the posible detritus accumulation. As you suggested, denitrification can occur elsewhere in the system within other areas (ie; a remote DSB, etc.).

Again, my belief is that the overall system husbandry is the critical issue in this type of setup. Obviously, your atention to maintenenace, stocking, and other details has paid dividends over the very long term! Perhaps such a bottom may simply be looked upon as a bare-bottom tank with a lot of rock, but I'm wondering if this is just semantics! Perhaps this is seen as making a relatively simple approach unduely complex...However, I'm thinking that, if well-maintained, this concept can provide other benefits (ie; cryptic zones within the display, possible production for natural plankton, etc.).

I'd love to hear from bare-bottom enthusiasts regarding their thoughts on the rubble bottom approach. Bare bottom enthusiasts such as Bomber and others, do recommend excellent overall husbandry, which is obviously a key to success with ANY system! Particularly, keeping detritus from accumulating within the system, and very aggresive protein skimming.

Ya' out there, Bomber? Would love your feedback!

Scott

[edwar050]

I would think as previously stated that it would trap alot of dietrius. What about using a couple of concentrated rouble areas out of sight somewhat and growing small ammounts of macro in them? Would be great for a mandarin-

[~ChrisB~]

The point of my adding the rubble is pretty much astethics for me.

I think with the right kind of flow, the right critters, and good husbandry this will work out just fine.

To give you an idea of the flow in my tank.... I have two 1 1/2 inch eductors each ran by a Sequence Baracuda and two Tunze wavebox's.

This equates to a pretty massive amount of flow if you consider the dimensions of my 300. The tank is 48x48x30. Seems to be plenty to keep "stuff" stirred up.

Thanks,
Chris

[algaeguy]

BOTR, I am intrigued by your thoughts on this concept, too. Again-I also think that the aesthetics is a bigger issue to me. I know that my husbandry skills will be possibly challenged, but I wonder to what extent detritus accumulation will occur...

You and I both have what I would consider massive flow in our tanks (I have a Sequence Dart, 2 6100 Streams and 2 6200 Streams, so I don't think that dead spots are an issue). Nonetheless, I am sure that detritus can accumulate somewhere in the system if left unchecked, despite our best intentions.

I think that long-term success is possible, though!

Let's herre more opinions!

Thanks!
Scott

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by H20ENG
Youve got plenty of pumping power. I think that will be key. I love the rubble look too, but am fighting hair algae.
I think you need more flow than just going bare bottom!
While Bomber and GregTs tanks look super clean and have awesome flow, I prefer a more natural look than the barren "lab" style bare bottom look. Just my preference....

I just completed a 20L rubble experiment, and I also had terrible hair algae issues. I have never had a tank with algae issues until this little venture. As algae needs nutrient to grow, that points the finger at me for feeding. I think that the food for the fish was the cause and that the feed ends up trapped in the rubble before the fish can get at it. I broke the tank down the the detritus was also a lot worse. It looked like a years build up in 60 days. That test tank is currently a sand bottom and I am turning some of the rubble into a sculptured structure. Think that will look kind of cool and the fish a place to play.

[~ChrisB~]

Also I am banking on the motion of the water. Not just the direct flow. From watching the WaveBox's I think I have a pretty good up/down water motion as well. Hoping that this will help to suck the left-over foods up out of the rubble and into the overflow.

I want to be sure to say that I have two very different flow patterns in my tank. As I said before I have a very strong up and down motion, as well as a strong horozontalish current generated by the Eductors. Boy I hope this helps keep things clean.

I'm not convinced that a steady current in any one direction could maintain a system like this. Random current in every direction is needed, unless you want to siphon every other day!


Thanks,
Chris

[lillibirdy]

I am sure my flow in my 55g FOWLR is nothing compared to you guys, and I haven't had any hair algae, nor much algae in general even while cycling....wierd huh, (8 months now). I was running a UGF, which I assumed pulled the detritus down into the CC substrate and rubble , so I vacuumed, and dug in where no rocks where, and worried about under the rocks. I recently (2 weeks ago) reversed the UGF, and added a mini refugium in a hob filter, now even the tiny bit of algae I used to get on the glass after a week is less... Not recommending UGF's or CC to general populace, so don't jump on me,lol. I know most of you think they are archaic, just info for you to think about. My detritus is minimal still, and when Paul B took his apart after many, many yrs, and the gunk under his plates where minimal.

I origionally wanted to make a home for pods, and put the rubble between two islands of rock. Now I just love the way it looks, so much unless it becomes an issue, which it isn't now, I will keep this tank set up this way permanently.

I was doing weekly water changes, and tried an experiment to go two weeks just to see my perams. I am amazed they are still stable and Nitrates actually went down by end of week one to under12mg, by end of week two where only back up to 15. I am working toward 0 so I can add some corals in the Spring when I upgrade my lights. I have no sump either, so if I can't get NO3 to 0 by Spring I will go ahead and get one with a bigger refugium.

[Herbert T. Kornfeld]

when you upgrade your lighting, you might want to look into some clams...they will lower that nitrate level.

[lillibirdy]

OMG is this true! I didn't know clams would help lower Nitrates, I thought I had to be 00000000 to even try a clam. Haven't studied them too much yet, trying to learn in order of need to know......lol. Wow. I love clams and can't wait!

[~ChrisB~]

Sure clams are excellent for that. Try going with Crocea as they as one of the faster growing and take up quite a bit. At one point I had 9 in my 300, sold them all, now have 2 Gigas and 1 Tear Drop Crocea.



Chris

[algaeguy]

Ya know what is really cool about this thread, guys? It's that we're talking about some really out-of-the-box thinking on substrates and ecosystem designs!

Utilizing different types of hardware, unique approaches to creating microhabitats...This is what the hobby is all about. Sure, there may be some failures, and some disappointments, but since there is more than one way to run a reef, it's neat to hear about everyone's experiments.

Clams as a "filter" is not entirely new, but it is cool to think of when we're also examining alternative substrates and set ups.

Thanks again to everyone for this thought provoking discussion!

Scott

[LazyReef]

My experience articulated previously is that rubble is a detritus trap. Pocillopora colonies I have encountered in wild are always shallow, sand bottom sloping down to 60 feet before a drop. They were located in 15-20 feet of water. Usually anemones are in the same area. I would not call it a fore or aft reef, but more of a lagoonal type reef. Flow is not high, but fresh deep water is always close by. Favids would probaly do better in a zone like this a high flow rubble. Siphoning once a week is way too much work for me, but rubble if kept clean will give you a habitat for pods. First time I heard of horeshoes for sand stirrers, but I am going to have to give that a try. Interesting thread, a lot of different ideas going on.

[Paul B]

Horseshoe crabs should not be put in a reef. They are not tropical animals and they always live in mud. I can collect them locally here in NY by the hundreds any size from 1/4" to a foot. They live on mud and rarely venture onto rubble although there is plenty of rubble here. They are also temperate animals and will not live long at tropical temperatures. They should live a few monthes but at 80 degrees I doubt they will last much longer. I have collected them many times. Let me know if anyone had one for a long time.
Take care.
Paul

[sgolden]

thanx for the ideas guys.......i think i'll be building a pvc plenum of "rails"to put under my sandbed...with holes drilled on the bottom to keep all detritus from settling...and have lotsa holes (some on angles)aimed up at the sandbed.....so if the sand settles in areas and makes dead zones i can just adjust the flow till the entire sandbed is percolating...then back it off......do you think anything would still live in the sand???

[bigreddog]

A buddy of mine has a 210g with a rubble bottom. He put a thin layer of aragonite sand, about a half inch, underneath a nice layer of 1-2" pieces of marshall and tonga rubble. It gives the effect he was looking for and adds valuable biofiltration. It's been nearly a year since he set it up and never a problem.

[algaeguy]

bigreddog:

Any chance of getting a pic of your buddy's tank?

Sounds like something worth seeing!

Thanks!

Scott

[jimbo045]

I seem to be doing the rara. Lots of live rock and only a Protein Skimmer, no wet/dry

[ghotiFL]

OT: Horseshoe crabs not tropical? Then the ones here must be mutated. I see em all the time here in Florida. On the gulf coast.. and our water temps range from 90 in summer to 65 in winter.

[Paul B]

ghotiFL, If you see horseshoe crabs in Florida then I stand corrected. They have to be the same species becfause there is only three species of them and only one in North America.
It is amazing that an animal (it's not really a crab) can live here in NY under the ice and also live in Florida. I still don't think they will do well in a reef though. But I could be wrong again. My wife tells me I am wrong all the time.
bigreddog, I like the picture of the male blue devil in your avitar. That is what they look like when they are in breeding condition. I used to breed them all the time many years ago.
Take care Paul

[Tunguska]

I have a "rubble zone" substrate, but it isn't just rubble. I have everything from oolitic aragonite and "special grade" sizes to CC, shells, sand dollar pieces, and LR chunks. The amount of microscopic life this mix supports is quite amazing.

I have at least 2 species of snail breeding successfully in my tank (one looks like turbo snails, but I'll wait till they grow more before trying to ID, the other looks like a slug with a hard shell on top). I also have tunicates and sponges spreading like crazy. Mysis shrimp have set up breeding stations in some large shells I have in there. I also have some kind of stationary snail that casts a "net" for either bacteria or plankton, and a non-photosynthetic clam that came with one of my rocks that is still alive after one year this month.

I think the sandbed/rubble zone creates a zone where natural phyto production can occur, as well as a place where the snail larvae can survive. I don't feed phyto. I also have 0/0/0 amonia/nitrite/nitrate. I attribute this to feeding almost nothing (I'm not giving the sandbed ALL the credit ).

I think rubble zones are something to look at, and not just as BB replacements. Just my opinion based on 1 year of SW.

[Paul B]

Tunguska, I have also raised over 100 of these lettuce slugs in my reef but I doubt the substrate has anything to do with it, but it may.
Paul
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Arti...oweredSlug.htm

[lillibirdy]

Oh my Gosh Paul, thats a lot of slugs. So what ever happened to them? Are they still in there and reproducing? You shoulda sold some babies to LFS or local reefers. I am fascinated by these little buggers, but am afraid of the toxicity factor. Hmmm idea for another poll...