Use of Lasers in Controlling Pest Algae and Corals

[astvinr]

If you haven't done it already when using the laser, put blinds on the windows.

As much as I find it stupid to use a laser to kill pests in an aquarium I still don't want you nor other people get hurt.

And you can not make yourself irrersponsible for people trying this at home when you are posting this on forums. As they wouldn't have known about it if you didn't. Sure it's not your fault their blind, it's their own stupidity. However it wouldn't happend if you didn't write it here.

It's just common sense, cause and effect. If someone never saw this before and figures it'd be a fun thing to do it can end up badly.

Just like i'm against guns... but that's another story so I won't go there.

[Sk8r]

Unfortunately stupidity may not be contagious, but stupid behavior is...the fact that everybody else in that room thought sunglasses were enough and only one person had read enough to know better. The guy doing the demo hadn't read enough, or he'd have thrown everybody out and asked them to come back to see the tank 'after.'

I taught school for 11 years, seniors, the best and brightest; and some would read the instructions, and most of those would believe them. Some would think about the family pet.

In general, when you get a group together, the IQ is that of the brightest person in the group divided by the number of people present.

This is effectively a loaded gun that richochets off glass and does forever-damage to vision. And if someone gets hurt, personal, financial, and legal consequences will be life-changing.

I thought about getting one of these thinking that a tank failure might be the worst thing that could happen. Tank failure is minor compared to what could happen.

My advice is don't. Period. Don't. If you bought one of these, and you have kids, or fools for friends, remove the power source from the device and store them separately, if possible. Treat it as you would a firearm.

And if somebody proposes a demo at a club meeting, be a 'no.'

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Agu

I was at a local reef club meeting and walked around the corner to discover another member was demonstrating the use of a laser to kill aiptasia. The demonstrator was wearing safety glasses, everybody else was wearing sunglasses (Questionable protection at best), I was subjected to potential blindness because I had no eye protection.

I turned around and walked away thankful to still have my vision.....

This is a great argument for the importance of education and the establishment of a set of best practices for use of lasers in aquaria. Any public display or demonstration using lasers is inherently hazardous to all those in the viewing or potential reflection areas.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

If anything, this thread has done a terrific job outlining how much of a bad idea it is.

Sure, there is a lot of cool factor in blasting pests with lasers, but how practical is this really? By the time you get through all the safety precautions and doing whatever to protect all livestock with eyes, how much easier is this than the other myriad ways of killing aiptasia?

In the end, what good is your aquarium if you can no longer see it?

[jrpark22000]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

This is a great argument for the importance of education and the establishment of a set of best practices for use of lasers in aquaria. Any public display or demonstration using lasers is inherently hazardous to all those in the viewing or potential reflection areas.

It is. It is great we can share the information. Let this inform as this topic will be discussed with or without this thread.

Originally Posted by aninjaatemyshoe

If anything, this thread has done a terrific job outlining how much of a bad idea it is.

No one has disagreed on the danger of this device.



There are many comments outlining the dislikes of many individuals. To keep an educational thread on topic can further replies which only objective is to express dislike for this be held back? Not to sensor anyone, let us to not fill the entire thread with the same opinion. Let’s leave this thread 2 sided as there are people who are using this for education and do show responsibility.

[jrpark22000]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Treat it as you would a firearm.

EXACTLY. The OP is showing this and Ryan009 has commented similarly. Proper firearm safety is very similar to how one should treat these high power lasers. There are numerous laser safety courses available online and in person. Due to my job I must go through one every 2 years. It is a very good idea to participate in such a class before undertaking a laser solution.

[jrpark22000]

Status update on my laser use, started in the linked RC thread above;

The xenia needed a second dose. I knew they were strong but I was surprised to see them come back after the first treatment. The vermetid snails are still dead. The invasive yellow palys I can never seem to get all of, have not shown any signs of recovery. I was also able to blast a few astrea stars. They poped a few times under the laser and have not moved since.

Excitingly the invasive pink sponge did show signs of damage. I gave the sponge a full minute of laser during the first night. 2 days later I do notice the sponge has damage but with its normal growth rate, it will be fully recovered in 2 weeks.

[CalmSeasQuest]

I took some time to think through what types of general hazards and precautions might apply to anyone considering the use of lasers in aquaria. This is just a rough, first draft that will hopefully serve as a springboard for more discussion and refinement of a set of "best practices"

I also feel a disclaimer is appropriate...

Lasers are dangerous. I am not a laser technician, scientist, specialist or expert. I have no formal education in the use of lasers. I am simply a marine hobbyist researching the use of lasers in aquaria. There is no guarantee as to accuracy. These are not instructions or guidelines, but rather talking points intended to spark further discussion on the subject. Use this information at your own risk.

Please feel free to comment or add anything you beleive should also be included...

Best practices for the use of lasers in aquaria (first draft)

Secure the Area
The lase area should be closed off from any transient traffic to prevent someone from unknowingly entering the area without appropriate eye protection. Any doors should be closed and locked. Any windows should be covered or blinds closed to prevent the escape of reflected laser energy.

Only the laser operator and those required in the process should be allowed in the area. All pets should be removed from the area and prevented for reentering while the laser is in use.


Protective Gear
A high power laser beam striking your eye, or the eye of an observer can result in instant and permanent blindness. Even viewing the beam endpoint without eye protection will cause eye damage. The user and everyone within the viewing or potential reflection areas must be equipped with appropriate eye protection specifically designed for the wavelength laser being used. Sunglasses do not protect against laser light. Laser eye protection is designed to protect against unintentional reflections and endpoint viewing. It is not designed to protect from a laser beam being directed toward the eye. Never look directly at a laser beam or allow it to directly strike your eye. Long sleeves and Nitrile gloves offer an additional layer of protection for the operator.

Identify and Eliminate Reflection Hazards
Using high power lasers in glass and acrylic tanks is virtually guaranteed to create potentially hazardous beam reflections. These beam reflections can cause serious injury. This danger is amplified by the fact that use of the appropriate safety goggles will prevent you from seeing most beam reflections. Positioning the laser at right angles (directly perpendicular) to the tank glass or acrylic should be avoided as unseen laser energy will be reflected directly toward the user. Burns to exposed tissue can occur within seconds.To prevent injury, a low power targeting laser (such as a laser pointer) in a different spectrum that can be seen when using the safety goggles should be utilized to identify any reflections before firing the high power laser.

Identify Backstops
The laser beam will penetrate clean glass or acrylic with virtually no heat being transmitted to the tank material. The beam will quickly (almost instantly) pierce though the targeted item and impact anything behind it. Extreme caution must be exercised to prevent injury to any livestock located behind the targeted item. Painted or dark glass or acrylic surfaces may become heated during lasing.

Reduce Water Flow
Pumps should be turned off during lasering. This limits the cooling effect of water passing over the target thereby increasing the effectiveness of the laser and reducing the firing duration required to achieve the intended results. It also simplifies targeting as the intended pest is motionless.

Protecting Tank Inhabitants
Failure to protect tank inhabitants from repeated viewing the beam endpoint will likely result in blindness to your livestock. Ideally, all livestock should be removed and held in quarantine in a tank protected (covered) from stray laser light until laser treatment is completed. Alternative methods(s) to protect livestock from encountering the beam or end-point include,

• Physical Barriers - Use of physical barriers to prevent inhabitants from accessing an area being lased and to prevent any laser energy (beam pass-through or reflections) from entering any areas containing livestock.
• Endpoint Shield - If physically blocking off the area being lased is impractical due to tank features, an end-point shield should be used to prevent inhabitants from viewing the end-beam. In this case, extreme diligence is required to extinguish the beam should any inhabitants approach. This is likely, due to curiosity over the “sizzling” sound created by the operating laser. The endpoint shield can be created by simply as a short section of opaque acrylic (such as painted or frosted.) PVC should not be used as it emits toxins when heated.

Potential Impact to Water Quality
Use of a lasers to eradicate certain marine pests may result in the release of undetermined levels of toxins into the water column. It is believed that the intense heat may break down some of the compounds (such as Palytoxins.) Depending on the type and number of pests being destroyed and the size of the tank, the user should be prepared to use fresh carbon and or execute a water change to reduce any toxins produced.

Securing the Laser When Not in Use
When not in use the laser should be treated and stored as a firearm. When not is use it should be secured in a lockable case with batteries removed. The locked case should be stored out of the reach of children.


It's rough, but it's a start -Thoughts?

[CJO]

That looks like a good start. You might want to add something about securing the laser when not in use. I really like your locked otterbox and plan to do the same.

Under Protective Gear you might want to put in that sunglasses are not sufficient eye protection.

Under Identify and Eliminate Reflective Aazards you have that you should position the laser at right angles to the glass. In one of the laser forums, one person said that you should actually shine it through at an angle as the laser could reflect back on itself and damage it. Shining it through at another angle will obviously cause reflections which should be addressed. There probably should be some more discussion on this before making a recommendation.

CJ

[Sk8r]

Under protecting tank inhabitants---flat-out catch all fish and put in qt. Drape the qt. You don't know where-all that beam may go with that many potentially reflective surfaces.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by CJO

That looks like a good start. You might want to add something about securing the laser when not in use. I really like your locked otterbox and plan to do the same.

Under Protective Gear you might want to put in that sunglasses are not sufficient eye protection.

Under Identify and Eliminate Reflective Aazards you have that you should position the laser at right angles to the glass. In one of the laser forums, one person said that you should actually shine it through at an angle as the laser could reflect back on itself and damage it. Shining it through at another angle will obviously cause reflections which should be addressed. There probably should be some more discussion on this before making a recommendation.

CJ

Secured storage and no sunglasses added -The instructions actually say NOT to use right angles as the energy is deflected back to towards the user. I learned that the hard way - It feels like a thousand needles piercing your hand when it happens. - Thanks CJ

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Under protecting tank inhabitants---flat-out catch all fish and put in qt. Drape the qt. You don't know where-all that beam may go with that many potentially reflective surfaces.

Added - Thanks SK8r

[brad65ford]

This is one of the smartest things I've seen in the hobby. Makes sense, nice!

[billsreef]

Just to throw in some perspective from the research side of life, in a university research lab setting, just as much weight is given to safety and tracking of lasers as radioactive material

[CalmSeasQuest]

This comment and my reply was posted in another thread. I thought it important enough to include in this thread...

Originally Posted by Anemone

This is the point that struck me as pretty significant. How many hobbyists reading a thread like this who have aiptasia (or other problem inhabitant) are really going to catch and remove their fish before using it?

Seriously. From a fully-stocked reef tank?

Kevin

In that scenario, probably very few...

That's an excerpt from the first attempt to compile a list of "best practices" for the use of lasers in aquaria. The "ideal" is that no livestock be exposed. The best way to prevent that is that no livestock be present. Clearly, that may not be a viable option, but it still remains the "best practice.

2 additional methods were also outlined including,

• Physical Barriers - Use of physical barriers to prevent inhabitants from accessing an area being lased and to prevent any laser energy (beam pass-through or reflections) from entering any areas containing livestock.
• Endpoint Shield - If physically blocking off the area being lased is impractical due to tank features, an end-point shield should be used to prevent inhabitants from viewing the end-beam. In this case, extreme diligence is required to extinguish the beam should any inhabitants approach. This is likely, due to curiosity over the “sizzling” sound created by the operating laser. The endpoint shield can be created by simply as a short section of opaque acrylic (such as painted or frosted.) PVC should not be used as it emits toxins when heated.

I believe both methods, executed correctly provide easy and effective ways to protect tank inhabitants.

A point that should be acknowledged - In the limited reports from users of lasers in aquaria to date, the focus has been on how effective it has been on eradicating the targeted pests. There has been very little concern regarding the tank inhabitants or steps being taken to prevent the vision damage from viewing the beam endpoint.

As for laser use in the marine trade, it's the wild west - This at least starts to process of creating a base of knowledge and safe practices to protect the user, observers and tank inhabitants.

[5380]

Really really interesting, but I'd try several 1000 peppermint shrimp, a few 100 berghia, then the laser, then napalm (the aquarium community hasn't fully appreciated this tactic yet).

[dcforester1]

And I thought it was cool when I found out I could use ice melt to raise my calcium. What will they think of next?

[mussel and hate]

The laser allows pinpoint precision eradication. It's a practical remedy for pests nestled in with non-target sessile animals.

Certainly appropriate precautions should be observed. I believe a ~1 watt laser can be used safely. This thing isn't as dangerous as a submersible heater, or say a 75volt DC PSU. Either of the aforementioned can kill you outright if you don't treat them with respect.

I think the best practices document is an excellent idea and although I haven't a high powered laser I've played around with a laser pointer to test the reflective hazzard and it is very real.

I'd like to offer a suggestion regarding some reflection protection. An opaque plastic pipe just a bit larger in diameter than the laser host functions as an effective baffle when pressed to the glass with the laser inserted within. This should eliminate bounces off the front pane at least.

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

[*]As I understand it, a laser focuses light energy up to 100,000 times, thus the 1800mW laser being utilized is the equivalent of up to ~180,000 watts of energy being delivered to the pin-point focus point.

I don't think that's an accurate description of the laser's power. You've still only got 1.8W of energy but it's so finely focused that the tiny point of incidence can't dissipate the energy by conduction and so it burns. It's just like how you can burn yourself with the point of a 15W soldering iron more easily than with a higher wattage T12 NO fluorescent tube.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

I don't think that's an accurate description of the laser's power. You've still only got 1.8W of energy but it's so finely focused that the tiny point of incidence can't dissipate the energy by conduction and so it burns. It's just like how you can burn yourself with the point of a 15W soldering iron more easily than with a higher wattage T12 NO fluorescent tube.

In rereading it the excerpt, it seems like we mostly agree, I was just trying to use a very simplistic explanation - Here's that section in its entirety...

"As I understand it, a laser focuses light energy up to 100,000 times, thus the 1800mW laser being utilized is the equivalent of up to ~180,000 watts of energy being delivered to the pin-point focus point. The energy is so focused, you can completely "vaporize" an Aiptasia polyp nestled in the middle of a desirable colony with little or no damage to corals in the immediate area (assuming your hand is steady enough.) All that said, we're still dealing with only 1.8 watts of energy.

In tests with the 1800mW laser, the focus point is critical. If not focused to a pinpoint, the effectiveness drops off sharply.

[TheFishMan65]

We used laser for a while in our office. We were told to keep the room lights on. I thnk the idea was to keep the iris closed as much as possible to limit the mount of light entering form the impact point EVEN WITH LASER SAFETY GLASSES.

I don't know if this will help. And maybe someone can verify. I purchaesed two pair of safety glasses so I could have an observer. Well if I shine the laser throught one some of the light (445 nm) is transmitted. Should I be looking for a new pair? Most (I woulld say) is reflected. What is interesting is that I had some red plexiglass/acrylice/something that actually refects (as near as I can tell) all light. So perhaps the red whatever can be a good barrier, but it may also cause more problems becuase of reflection. If you want more info (becuase you think it will help) on the red plexi let me know.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

We used laser for a while in our office. We were told to keep the room lights on. I thnk the idea was to keep the iris closed as much as possible to limit the mount of light entering form the impact point EVEN WITH LASER SAFETY GLASSES..

Great input, every little bit helps (and it makes it easier to see and work .) With lower power lasers such as those used in laser pointers, your blink reflex is supposed to kick in before damage occurs to your eye. With these, a blink is too late. One concern - I want to be careful about suggesting anything that might be misinterpreted as to prompt a reader/user to skip any of the safeguards.

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

I don't know if this will help. And maybe someone can verify. I purchased two pair of safety glasses so I could have an observer. Well if I shine the laser throughout one some of the light (445 nm) is transmitted. Should I be looking for a new pair? Most (I would say) is reflected. What is interesting is that I had some red plexiglass/acrylice/something that actually refects (as near as I can tell) all light. So perhaps the red whatever can be a good barrier, but it may also cause more problems becuase of reflection. If you want more info (becuase you think it will help) on the red plexi let me know.

I've seen similar questions regarding the safety glasses, but haven't seen a clear answer. It would "seem" that some of the output nm laser light must be allowed to pass though the safety glasses, or we wouldn't be able to see the beam endpoint. I would be concerned if the performance between two identical glasses were markedly different. I'd inquire with the retailer or manufacturer.

My concern about the red plexi is, it might be that you can't "see" the beam penetrate, but significant laser energy is still passing through at potentially dangerous levels. The fact that my hand was "stung" by light I could not see while wearing the proper safety glasses suggests we have to be careful in making any recommendations. It seems the ideal would be either blocking the light entirely with solid or opaque materials, or using only the materials specifically designed to block the nm laser being used. I'm currently researching the best material and colors for the endpoint shielding (it will vary based on the spectrum laser being used.) I'm hoping I can find a supplier for the same material used in the safety glasses that manufactures other shapes - ideally, small diameter pipe.

[BluScrnOdeth]

ahhhhh, my eyes, the video, ahhh danger danger, lol, just be cautious with it. Its like people driving, you will have idiots that wreck and didnt buckle up to save their life, and those who did buckle up and survive. Proper protection if only found out through planning and experimenting. Theres a safe way, we will find it.

[BluScrnOdeth]

How about this. Totally safe way, may damage the camera over time, but thats the price you pay.

But get a PVC tube, put an end cap on it, drill a hole dead center and another off center, maybe 3 holes with 2 off center. Mount the lazer to the center hole and a camera/camera&light combo to the other holes. Turn on the light so you can see what you are pointing at on a small LCD screen and zap away with not blinging anything ot you getting zapped. You could even put something like a crosshare with a hole in the center bottom of it to better align where your lazer is shooing so you arent pointing your lazer in there and zapping your corals neat the target trying to align the lazer to your target.

[CalmSeasQuest]

There has been some discussion about lasers potentially posing a risk to acrylic tanks. An owner of a laser cutting shop issued a warning that they use lasers to cut acrylic.

I am not concerned about this for several reasons,

• I've been testing lasers on both glass and acrylic tanks with an 1800mW 445nm laser (the highest power output laser used so far in these applications) and have noted no damage or temperature rise whatsoever.
  
• Even if there was some initial temp increase (which I do not beleive), the cooling effect of water flowing over the materials surface would seemingly minimize it.
  
• There is a significant difference between our visible light lasers and the IR lasers designed for cutting (not to mention <2 watts vs 150 watts.)
  
• I posted these concerns in the LaserPointerForum - To date, no concerns were expressed and comment was made that the IR laser is designed for cutting acrylic.
  
• Lastly, but perhaps most importantly - jrpark22000 conducted testing using an IR thermometer on both glass and acrylic and determined there was no increase in temperature during use of the laser.

I've also ordered an IR thermometer to be able to do some additional testing including,

• Temperature rise at the beam endpoint
• Temperature rise in the areas immediately surrounding the target
• Effect on colored surface such as black acrylic or painted backgrounds
• Effect on joints (either silicone or fused acrylic.) Due to increased opacity, some laser energy may be absorbed thus caution should be maintained to avoid impacting any joints or seams.
• Impact of water flow on beam endpoint temperatures

My most significant concern are the joints and seams. While it's unlikely that anyone would intentionally attempt to laser through a corner or seam as it wouldnt be effective - there is the possibility of reflections doing so.

More research is needed to determine if this is a valid concern and if so, any long term effects.

[TheFishMan65]

One concern - I want to be careful about suggesting anything that might be misinterpreted as to prompt a reader/user to skip any of the safeguards.

What I was thinking (and maybe didn't explain well) is that even with glasses the spot is pretty darn bright and an awful lot of light enters the eye. While the glasses are supposed to make it save, why not be extra safe and let the eye naturally block some of that light. I expect most folks are doing this with the fish lights on and maybe that is all you should say.

My concern about the red plexi is, it might be that you can't "see" the beam penetrate, but significant laser energy is still passing through at potentially dangerous levels.

It is my understanding with the blue 445 all the energy is in the 445 range. So if you can't see any light coming through the it is either reflected or absorbed. The 532 green can in the UV band (maybe that is infrared) where you can't see it. That is why I stayed away from green when I got mine. I don't know if any other colors have a secondary spectrum.

[CreatiVe2]

There is an article written about this (gj calmsea)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...th-laser-beams