Pedal laceration in Gigantea

[5Starreef]

I was in a animal clinic with pictures of healthy anemones. I saw the doctor a picture of my one and I explained to him what I want it to do, and he sold me two tablets without any problems.

[OrionN]

Originally Posted by beuchat

Hi guys,

Today's videos of the s. gigantea back in DT after 24 hours reintroduction . Also you can see the s. hadonni present already in the tank. Both of them look inflated and healty, sorry for the low quality (I needed to reduce the size of the files).

Maybe I won the battle?

.....
I hope they will continue like this! . I am slowly getting crazy taking care of my anemone with bipolar disorder....

I would not consider the Giantea as "healthy" Maybe he is better than before but certainly not out of the wood yet. Good luck with him

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by deangelr

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

I think a successful Enrofloxacin regimen has yet to be determined. Use of Chloramfenicol does not come without serious risks, both physical and legal for those of us in the United States. Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. Here is the warning for humans in regards to the use of enrofloxacin:

"Avoid contact with eyes. In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of water for 15 minutes. In case of dermal contact, wash skin with soap and water. Consult a physician if irritation persists following ocular or dermal exposure. Individuals with a history of hypersensitivity to quinolones should avoid this product. In humans, there is a risk of user photosensitization within a few hours after excessive exposure to quinolones. If excessive accidental exposure occurs, avoid direct sunlight."

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment. The OP has an earlier thread about using some of these medications (I believe both) on a Magnifica and I believe this anemone is still alive. Interestingly I believe this animal was treated twice, and failed to reintroduce itself successfully into a reef environment after the first round of treatment.

The medication I purchased(enrofloxacin) was used to treat two anemones (one was not mine) and both animals did not make it.

And yes I myself did find it difficult to find a veterinarian to prescribe medication. My recommendation would be to search for an exotic animal vet, or a vet that specializes in fish (koi). Probably easier in some locales than others.

[beuchat]

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment.

I agree,

And bad news. The gig is again deflated!, I am tired...

[OrionN]

Originally Posted by beuchat

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment.

I agree,

And bad news. The gig is again deflated!, I am tired...

I would set up full quarantine with light and everything. Keep him in there for at least a week. One day of medication is not going to help a whole lot. Once he continue to be inflated and maybe eating, then take him out of quarantine. IMO, you put him back to DT too quickly before he is fully treated.
FWIW, as Gigantea or any other anemone dying, they look good some of the time. The time when they looking good get less and less then they never expand again. Just because they are fully expanded for 12 or more hrs does not mean that they are cure and healthy.

[beuchat]

This is a very interesting and exciting story but also "deflates" myself...

I will switch off the LEDs over him , if he does not recover a bit in one or two days them I will transfer him again to QT.

If we could recover him again in QT them we will have to think in:

1- A way to return to DT.
2- Maybe remove the hadonni for some time?

[beuchat]

Hi

5starreef contacted with me and reported that his gigantea is doing better in DT without light. I set the bluemoon in my KR-92 leds and mine is inflating a bit more. Yesterday went for travel and I left him without direct light (only small comming from the other KR-92 module)

I read some articles like this one:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/11/6855.

were is explained that the bacteria attacks the zooxhantellae of the host. So I thoght:

- When shipped the infection is developed into the anemona.
- The bacteria attacks the zooxanthellae.
- The anemone opens the mouth in order to get rid of rotten ingested food (the source of bacteria)
- The zooxanthelae infected can not process the photoshynthesis and other processes that interact with the anemone, so light, at this stage, is causing the anemone not to feel good, so it deflates.

-The first time I returned my mag to DT he was releasen a "green water flow" from his mouth:

Originally Posted by beuchat

Hi, the battle is not still won...

He deflated really quick today, was throwing away a lot of "smoke" through his moth.During the water evacuation:



Later:



I will wait. If tomorrow is still deflated I will return to QT with antibiotic and start again...

-Maybe this green water was water with dead or live zooxhantellae that were released when the nem got in contact with the strong DT lights. He suffered a "light shock" after the infection.

- The gig was cured during the first days in Qt with antibiotics but deflated when returned in DT for excess of light, so I was returning him to QT thinking in the the pathogen, when the infection was halted and the nem only needed a light reacclimatation.

I will report how I find him tomorrow when come back home. He will have stayed for 48 hours without lights.

[bradleym]

Update? Did the light reacclimation seem to help or is it in for anotther round of meds?

[beuchat]

Yes, I think it helped for him not to deflate again. The anemone is not still fully inflated although there is a clear trend to improve. I will post some pics tonight. Yesterday he was 30-40% inflated.

[this is me]

This anemone is a fighter!

[beuchat]

Hi,

Updated with some photos taken just 1 min ago.







He is slowly inflating more and more every day. Photoperiod is

8:00-10:00 AM Blue LEDs
10:00 AM to 22:00 Daylight LEDs
22:00 PM to 24:00 PM Blue LEDs
24:00 PM to 8:00 PM Blue Moon LEDs

I hope he does not need more treatment or anything, I will just let him rest and enjoy the current.

[phender]

Originally Posted by jeffreylesser

......Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. ........

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation...rofloxacin.htm

[jeffreylesser]

Good information, I don't think I found this page in my google searches.

Originally Posted by phender

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

It says this at the bottom of the page:

"Hallucinations, vivid dreams and headache may occur if enrofloxacin is given to humans."

The Hallucinations and vivid dreams seems to fall in line with photo-sensitivity information I had. Photo-sensitivity sounds like something the manufacturer of the drug would say.

Originally Posted by phender

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation...rofloxacin.htm

I am not sure about the Mg and Ca Ions, but the medication I used was injectible so soulbility is not an issue in that case. It has been tested on koi, where some of the test groups were given the antibiotic as an injection, and some in a bath. But you may be right, how much Ca and Mg is in freshwater for koi? 0?

With all of that said, I am not sure if enrofloxacin worked or not in my case. I would however say the anemone being treated with chloramphenicol at least shows some signs that the antibiotic has an affect. I have seen many Giganteas die in acclimation from myself, others, LFS, etc... and I have never seen one go through these fits for this long. It is a fighter for sure.

[phender]

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

I certainly appreciate the efforts that you guys are going through to try and further our understanding of a very difficult anemone species.

[beuchat]

Originally Posted by phender

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

No, I have not tried but I think it belongs to the same family of antibiotics

I have reduced the photoperiod to:

10:00 to 15:00 blue LEDs
15:00 to 21:00 daylight LEDs
21:00 to 02:00 blue LEDs
02:00 to 10:00 bluemoon

The anemone is not still completely inflated but he is looking better each day.

[beuchat]

Originally Posted by phender

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

No, I have not tried but I think it belongs to the same family of antibiotics

I have reduced the photoperiod to:

10:00 to 15:00 blue LEDs
15:00 to 21:00 daylight LEDs
21:00 to 02:00 blue LEDs
02:00 to 10:00 bluemoon

The anemone is not still completely inflated but he is looking better day by day.

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by phender

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

I certainly appreciate the efforts that you guys are going through to try and further our understanding of a very difficult anemone species.

I have not, but I have read on-line somewhere (for what that is worth), that doxycycline can but prescribed along with enrofloxacin. This is not the information I read at the time(link below), but came up in a google search. There are a lot of hits so clearly their interaction is not counterproductive. Interestingly enough, a combo came up with metronidazole in it as well (along with enrofloxacin and doxycycline). I am pretty sure I have some of that lying around from fish treatments.

http://www.microbugs.org/showabstract.php?pmid=9371348

I am not sure what would be wrong with your dog/cat if you needed this cocktail of antibiotice, because it seems enrofloxacin is pretty extreme to begin with. I hope my dog never finds out. Doxycycline is certainly easier to get a hold of.

[maxxII]

Originally Posted by phender

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

I certainly appreciate the efforts that you guys are going through to try and further our understanding of a very difficult anemone species.

Phil,
I have used Doxy on H.magnifica anemones with mixed results.

Here is the link I think you are looking for:

QT Procedures for Anemones

I have two H.magnifica anemone's currently. One I've had for almost 5 years, the other I've had for a little over two months, and is in the process of rehabilitating and acclimating to captivity.

The first is mentioned in the thread I linked to. I'd had it for about a year, got another one and put it in the display tank with the original. I thought that since the original was healthy, the water quality in the tank was good and therefore gave the new arrival the best chance for success. What happened was the new arrival was sick, and promptly infected my healthy one. The new arrival died within a day or two and the original hung on for a few days looking worse every day.

I spoke to a LFS owner who reccomended the Doxy, and went to the vet. I have a large breed dog, (Not like yours Phil, but still pretty big) and explained what I needed and why to my dog's vet. He was surprised, but went along with it.

I did a 12 hour total bath with the sick anemone. It was placed into a viewer/specimen container like the ones used at LFS for placing fish in to sell. The container was kept in my display, hooked over the tank rim to keep it from going anywhere. The anemone was kept in the tank to maintain light and temp as normal. I inserted an airstone in the container with the anemone and a single pill of Doxy, (dont recall the dosage per pill. Will get that information when I get home) and let it sit.

The anemone was slime-ing pretty heavily and caused the air bubbles from the stone to build up to a Doxy mucus wall. I placed an acrylic sheet over the top of the container to prevent it from running into the display.

After 6 hours I did a 100% water change in the container, and added another doxy pill and reinserted the air stone.

After 12 hours total, the anemone looked better, but still deflated and unhappy. I returned the anemone to the display in the hopes that it would get better. It would deflate/inflate for a short period of time for the next 3 days, and then finally stopped doing that altogether.

I have attempted to treat other H.magnifica anemones prior to keeping them in QT. Some looked better afterwards, some did not. For various reasons, none of the others survived, until this latest one.

I suspect that Doxy only affects certain types of bacteria. Its been awhile since my bio chem/Micro Bio days, but IIRC, Doxy is a gram postive anti-bacterial and doesnt affect gram negative strains of bacteria....or vice versa

Nick

[this is me]

Any update on this?

[beuchat]

The gigantea din not inflate completly.Was improving until he stopped in 50% aprox. during several days. I increased the current to modify this variable and it deflated very quick in only one day.

I removed him today and placed in QT with 50 mg/l of chroramfenicol. There is also the blue hadonni in the same tank and maybe there is also a chemical war. I do not know what to think at this point of the story, maybe is time to remove for some days the hadonni, but my other QT is occupied with a tang. If I recover the gig again I will trasnfer the tang to the sump and remove the hadonni.

I can not get either one of the two nems to be completly inflated during 24 hours.

[Reefkeeper 18]

Interesting article. I have a Bta deflating just about everyday. Doesnt shoot out "smoke" tho

[deangelr]

Originally Posted by beuchat

The gigantea din not inflate completly.Was improving until he stopped in 50% aprox. during several days. I increased the current to modify this variable and it deflated very quick in only one day.

I removed him today and placed in QT with 50 mg/l of chroramfenicol. There is also the blue hadonni in the same tank and maybe there is also a chemical war. I do not know what to think at this point of the story, maybe is time to remove for some days the hadonni, but my other QT is occupied with a tang. If I recover the gig again I will trasnfer the tang to the sump and remove the hadonni.

I can not get either one of the two nems to be completly inflated during 24 hours.

You sure would answer some questions if you can seperate the two for some time

[Michelle S]

I'd like to see a photo of that red carpet anemone you have...

[beuchat]

Hi, updated tonight:

The gig after two days in DT transfered after two days in QT with antibiotics:







I have removed the blue hadonni. He never was complete inflated with day lights on and is suffering a lot of stress from the amphiprion polymnus (Their size is huge in comparation). I took him with the rock he was attached to. I will transfer the two amphiprion polymnus to another QT before reintroducing the hadonni.

Before removal:






After placed in QT with antibiotic. Please note in the second picture how it opens the mouth towards the current.





I know he does not look very well but he is behaving in cycles of inflation and deflation following blue light-day light photoperiod.

If we see a significative improvement in the green gigantea during the time the hadonni is out I should start considering chemical interaction. I am running 1 Kg of activated carbon in a fluidized reactor, plus another 1 kg in the sump, after the skimmer outflow. Total vol is 500 litres (125 gal)

[ocellaris123]

I would not blast the haddoni with super high flow in the quarantine, as they aren't fans of high flow