Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build

[yeniraki]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike O'Brien
[B]Why don't you read the link again. It clearly states that inorganic N and P don't get skimmed directly out. But yet there is still vastly more N and P in skimmate than in the tank.

Inorganic N and P are the ones we dont want, organic N and P are the ones we want cause they are the food.
Living creatures in our planet are mainly composed of C,H,N,P including planctons, cyclopeze, mysis, aa, bacteria and the rest.

[Mike O'Brien]

I know that. And your point is what ?

[Mike O'Brien]

There are more things going on, but for one. Bacteria use inorganic P, and are skimmed out of the tank. That is a form of removal of inorganic P. Just because the skimmer doesn't remove it directly means nothing. It's still being removed.

[Northside Reef]

Mike,

what kind of system do you keep?

Is it safe to assume it's a mostly SPS tank with a ton of flow and a BB?

My old system was a mixed tank SPS and LPS. I had to turn flow back because some of the LPS could not handle it.

If you don’t keep all of the uneaten food suspended so the skimmer can grab it, you’re going to get inorganic P (I know you know this I am just stating it for record).
In that instance I used a large refugium is to grow macro algae to remove it for me and then cultivated the macro algae to remove the inorganic N and P in the form of algae.



I never had a problem with algae in the main tank using this method.

An ATS should help in the same way.

I’m not too sure about turning off the skimmer, even in a system as large as the one I am building now, I would think over time I could never keep up.

[Mike O'Brien]

I have a mixed tank with a bit of everything. I have maybe a cup of sand in the display, and a 3 sq/ft DSB in my refugium. Chaeto spinning in a bucket. Yes, high flow in the display.

[matt & pam]

If you believe Adey, turf algae is supposed to be more effective at nutrient removal compared to other algae.

[Mike O'Brien]

Actually part of that was because the turf was horizontal with a wave action across it. The turf was moving back and forth which allowed light to get to both sides of it while alternating shade as well. That stopped photoinhibition that happened when the water was flowing in only one direction. With this vertical mat, that's not going to happen.

[tmz]

I think an ATS may be a decent adjunct.Any algal exudates would likely be offset by growth and export of the algae and the N and P they take up and would probably not be much different from a macroalgae refugium unless there is something about specific turf aglaes that enhance or diminish their effectivenes in this process. If there is, it has not been articualted much less explained. I have kept caulerpa and chaetomorpha both have exudates,single cell vs. multi structures aside.Both absorb N and P at varying levels.
I do not think an ATS will on it's own, especially on a small scale,obviate the need for a skimmer or even other export methods such as gfo and certainly not carbon .Just as, in my opinion a macroalgae refugia of reasonable size won't.. The need for multiple methods will vary from system to system based on the amount of feeding that is necessary to support fish and invert populations. and the level of nutrient desired depending on the types of corals being kept.There is no one size fits all in nutrient export or for that matter in desired nutrient levels.
I do not believe that excess organic phosphate is helpful or wanted and removal via skimmer is a plus. The skimmer will also remove some metals those bacteria take up and may actually help with some alleopathic compunds although I think carbon is a better bert for those.
So why can't we just talk about the ATS in terms of optimal designs and most efficient N and P exporting algaes for folks who wan't to try one out without all of the grandiose claims and vitriol. It doesn't have to make a skimmer unecessary to be useful.

[crazzy]

"So why can't we just talk about the ATS in terms of optimal designs and most efficient N and P exporting algaes for folks who wan't to try one out without all of the grandiose claims and vitriol. It doesn't have to make a skimmer unecessary to be useful."

I second that!

[piercho]

So why can't we just talk about the ATS in terms of optimal designs and most efficient N and P exporting algaes for folks who wan't to try one out without all of the grandiose claims and vitriol. It doesn't have to make a skimmer unecessary to be useful

It is curious what becomes emotionally charged on the boards. And the people who are most passionate when it comes to methodology tend to be the ones with no pictures in their gallery, or only pictures of gear and not of their tank!?

With respect to optimal turf filter design, this was my experience:
Higher flow rates than what Adey used worked better for me with my turf scrubber. I was cycling 10GPM through the filter for a 65G display. My notion is that high cycle rates gives the algae filter an improved opportunity to compete with algae in the tank.

My light level was relatively high compared to the PC-illuminated algae filters shown so far in this thread. I was using 250W 6500K SE at a few inches. I later switched to 150W 5000K DE in a PFO mini-pendant because it focused the light more tightly onto the filter with 100W less power. The algae you are trying to get to grow do not become limited by increased light intensity, according to Adey. My notion is that the bulk of the algae growing in the system will tend to grow where conditions are best for uptake, so I gave my filter higher flow and light levels than I did the tank.

Unlike Adey, I don't trying to model an ecosystem, and am not concerned with the diversity of plankton. I just try to grow coral, keep fish, and minimize nuisance algae in the tank. I used a skimmer and a GAC filter in parallel with the turf filter, and I made large (>50%) water exchanges a 3 or 4 times a year using NSW from Puget Sound. I kept Tridacna and Pacific stony coral and Atlantic photosynthetic gorgonians with almost no mortality using this husbandry. The plan for my next tank uses the same basic husbandry. I don't understand why people get hung up that using any kind of "natural" mediation of tank parameters is an all-or-nothing proposition. So if you use a turf filter you are required by law to throw out your skimmer? Not me.

My opinion is that you should not select a particular algae, or set or alga, for a turf filter. With live rock and sand or a diverse "seed" screen the turf community is self-selecting and will change over time as the tank conditions change. It's been stongly implied that turf algae are leaky or noxious by some posters. I don't have any evidence, but don't agree that turf algae are 'leakier" or more toxic than macroalgae. What grew in my turf filter was prefered graze for my fish, which is an indication to me that it is was not noxious. On the other hand, Caulerpa and Chaetomorpha were not prefered graze.

[crazzy]

BRAVO
Now could we have some other experiences and facts from other experiences.



Thanx piercho, could you post here pics etc. of your scrubber?

[Northside Reef]

Originally posted by tmz
I think an ATS may be a decent adjunct.Any algal exudates would likely be offset by growth and export of the algae and the N and P they take up and would probably not be much different from a macroalgae refugium unless there is something about specific turf aglaes that enhance or diminish their effectivenes in this process. If there is, it has not been articualted much less explained. I have kept caulerpa and chaetomorpha both have exudates,single cell vs. multi structures aside.Both absorb N and P at varying levels.
I do not think an ATS will on it's own, especially on a small scale,obviate the need for a skimmer or even other export methods such as gfo and certainly not carbon .Just as, in my opinion a macroalgae refugia of reasonable size won't.. The need for multiple methods will vary from system to system based on the amount of feeding that is necessary to support fish and invert populations. and the level of nutrient desired depending on the types of corals being kept.There is no one size fits all in nutrient export or for that matter in desired nutrient levels.
I do not believe that excess organic phosphate is helpful or wanted and removal via skimmer is a plus. The skimmer will also remove some metals those bacteria take up and may actually help with some alleopathic compunds although I think carbon is a better bert for those.
So why can't we just talk about the ATS in terms of optimal designs and most efficient N and P exporting algaes for folks who wan't to try one out without all of the grandiose claims and vitriol. It doesn't have to make a skimmer unecessary to be useful.

Well said.

[truebeliever71]

Now that the thread seems to be going in the right direction I would like to throw this idea out there... for lighting what are your thoughts on the blue/red LED lights that are using in hydroponics? Like these here... http://cgi.ebay.com/225-LED-GROW-LIG...QQcmdZViewItem

[One Dumm Hikk]

They would be an awesome application in a limited space and if they actually help it grow.

[miwoodar]

Looks good to me too. I would be concerned about putting it around saltwater though unless it is sealed or protected in some fashion.

[Northside Reef]

would like to see how well they work. I won't have my stuff set up for awhile. anyone able to try these?

[truebeliever71]

Originally posted by One Dumm Hikk
They would be an awesome application in a limited space and if they actually help it grow.

The light output of them is in the 460 to 630mn range. I've been search to see if this the optimal range for turf algae but not having much luck (at least in the limited time I had to search so far.)

[truebeliever71]

Originally posted by miwoodar
Looks good to me too. I would be concerned about putting it around saltwater though unless it is sealed or protected in some fashion.

It looks like they're protected... I would be building a 1 inch thick box and "sandwich" it with 2 panels.

The scrubber would be "fed" by my venturi style skimmer since it has a lot of microbubbles from it so the water will be well oxygenated.

[piercho]

crazzy: pictures and a brief description of my stationary, RCSD-surged turf filter are on page 9 of this thread.

[Northside Reef]

I’ve been considering a teeter tooter style ATS.

Here’s a link to the motor I would use:

http://www.servocity.com/html/37_rpm_gear_motor.html

Use a swivel clevis on the control arm and the screen:

http://www.servocity.com/html/servo_...rbox_arms.html

and let the screen teeter tooter in and out of the water. Something like this:




It’s just a quick mockup but I think you can kind of see what I’m thinking.

[Northside Reef]

I’ve been considering a teeter tooter style ATS.

Here’s a link to the motor I would use:

http://www.servocity.com/html/30_rpm_gear_motor.html

Use a swivel clevis on the control arm and the screen:

http://www.servocity.com/html/servo_...rbox_arms.html

and let the screen teeter tooter in and out of the water. Something like this:




It’s just a quick mockup but I think you can kind of see what I’m thinking.

[piercho]

Northside, are you using SketchUp for your models?

My requirement is that the tank can run at least 4 weeks without maintenance, which is why I shy away from dump tray style growing screens. RCSD is 100% reliable way to surge (no moving parts) but NOISY! I like your DC-motor idea but my background in servo applications is weak.

[miwoodar]

30 rpm sounds like it's going to make a big mess. If the swirler stein motors were available I would link you to one of them (2.5rpm continuous duty 120vac). Here's a continuous duty 9rpm 120vac gear motor for $10...

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric

[Northside Reef]

yeah I was wondering about 30 RPM as well they do have slower models.


here is their selection:

http://www.servocity.com/html/3-12v_gear_motors.html

piercho,

no I use SolidWorks 08.

[miwoodar]

That's a cool selection of motors. Do you know if they are meant to be continuous duty? It doesn't say in the description(s). If not, I wouldn't expect them to last too long before failure.