Cant Keep SPSs

[balloonpilot]

I've got a 28 gal nano tank. Its has 150w MH Geissman 20K bulb, plus power compacts. MH are on for 10 hrs a day.

Tank also has a HOB refug w/ Cheato and light is opposite of main tank.

For flow I've got a Vortech MP-10 set at Reef Crest (and on max).

Water parms:
pH: 7.9 to 8.2
SG: 1.026
CA: 480-510
Mg: 1450-1550
Alk: 9.3 - 9.9
Temp 78 - 79
Phosphate: 0
Nitrate: 5
Amonia/Nitrite: 0

Ive got an anenome and recorida that have split, my hammer coral is doing well and so is my favia.

I'm just not able to keep SPSs...

I've tried Montiporat, birdsnest, a few torts... No luck! Monti and birdsnest turn white in 2-3 wks. Torts lose tissue from buttom up. I was able to 'stop' the tissue loss on a blue/green tort when I started dosing potassium (0.2ml per day).

After installing a phosban reactor, I noticed my Cheato reduce and start to turn white in some spots.

I check my water 2-3 times a week and have dosing pumps to maintain the above settings....

What am i missing?

Now the tank has been setup since April of 09, but has only been stable for 2-3 months... I'm told by a LFS that I need to wait until the walls are covered in coraline then the tank is mature and stable --- not sure if this is true, but I'm at a loss as to what is causing SPSs to die.

Please help

[rbnice1]

I will throw out something stupid.

Your running carbon right? Maybe your have gotten bad frags to try? Look at red/brown monti caps to start. I have had issues with birdnests. My pink died off twice with small alk swings. I had torts do well tho.

[poidog81]

You have about the same set up as me, and my nano is stocked to the brim with rare and LE SPS.

Your params are way too high. try.....
pH: 7.9 to 8.2 -----> 8.3
SG: 1.026 -------> 1.025
CA: 480-510 ------> 420
Mg: 1450-1550 -------> 1250-1300
Alk: 9.3 - 9.9 --------> ~8

IMO you need to stop dosing. Let nature run it's course. Water change 25% weekly.

I only started dosing, mine's been going for a year, and that is only 1tbsp of tropic marine bio-calc every other day.

[rbnice1]

Well not to be disagreeable but:
My pH is 8.1 to 7.98. Mine has never gone up to 8.3 Good luck with that.
My sg is kept at 1.026. It will drop to 1.025 occasionally.
My Ca is kept at 480-500
My Mag is kept 1550-1600. Really helps with some nuisance stuff.(Just me. I know lot that dont keep this near this high.)
My Alk is kept at 9.6-10. When mine gets down to 8 I start gettingt die off.

Now I dont run a nano. my tanks have all been larger so maybe its different with nano's.

[balloonpilot]

Yes Im running carbon as well as phosban - that why Im thinking maybe too much is being taken out? because once I started running that stuff, the cheato in the refug started to shrink.... Im thinking of taken this stuff out and running w/o carbon/phosban.

poidog - I'm shocked at the low Alk. Ive heard that one needs to keep Alk up to allow for proper Cal consumption. But maybe keeping Ca lower allows lower Alk?

I would think water chemistry would be the same regardless of tank size, but like I said Ive only been doing this for a few months.

Its just frusturating when I'm doing thigns by the book and its not woking.

Maybe its patience, maybe I need to let tank sit stable for 6 months

[cnaegler]

Quote "Now the tank has been setup since April of 09, but has only been stable for 2-3 months... I'm told by a LFS that I need to wait until the walls are covered in coraline then the tank is mature and stable --- not sure if this is true, but I'm at a loss as to what is causing SPSs to die."

Your LFS was right, you should really let the tank start growing coralline algae. It's a good indicator that the tank is ready for SPS. Just my.02

[cnaegler]

[QUOTE=balloonpilot;15864577]
poidog - I'm shocked at the low Alk. Ive heard that one needs to keep Alk up to allow for proper Cal consumption. But maybe keeping Ca lower allows lower Alk?

Natural seawater has an DKH of 6.5- 7.5 ....I keep mine @ 7.5 to 8.0 DKH

[poidog81]

Thanks CN....
RBnice and OP your parameters all out of wack and need to shoot more towards natural sea water levels... I must be doing something right
from reefkeeping:

[LovinLife]

Oh, so this is why I am able to keep SPS along with every other coral known to the hobby....well, end result anyway..CA is so heavy in my tank that a razor doesnt scrape it off. My hands get so weak and tired every time I tried, so I gave up and started growing hairy shrooms on my back wall to give it some texture and look better. Heavens knows I wanted a clean back wall along with the other 3 sides, but I stacked the rock against the back and it has been there for the 5 yrs this tank has been up. I decided to re-aquascape this past weekend, tried scraping, but to no avail. Stuff was so thick it was growing on top of other that was there. Layer upon layer. Oh well, I like the shrooms, they will hide it for me....=)

I never test my water, but out of curiosity I bought a phosphate test kit and tested that today and it read 5.....maybe SPS need a little phosphate....I dont know, but I do know that my tanks never get tested, hardly ever see water changes, and I never dose anything......no algae or problems of the kind..and I have every kind of coral out there....in all three of my tanks...(125, 155, and 45)...Im thinking more tanks might do as good by gradually moving towards a less cleaner side and let the corals use whats in the water and sand rather than taking it all out with modern equipment (carbons, aggressive skimming, etc) then turning around and dosing what the doser feels the corals need or what they are told they need.

I do know that I am able to spend all of my time "playing" with my stuff rather than testing and worrying that something may not "be right" according to some other persons standards of what params are supposed to be.

My SG? I dont know, havent checked that in a coons age........brb and I will see


1.026

Everything seems pretty happy to me......Thats the first time Ive done that in so long....


I still feel tanks would fair better if they are allowed to be a little less cartoonized and allowed to be what they are in the wild. I feel too many want a picture to look at rather than a realistic reef. Too many trying to have picture perfect, gin clear water....this is not what they originated from. I allow mine to be what they are supposed to be, I allow fish to wallow and rub in the sand without cursing them to death for doing it and messing up the visibility of the water.

Maybe this is the secret to my success.........I have phosphates, albeit according to the test kit, low.... I have a high SG, I dont do water changes, I dont dose, I dont do many of the things the vast majority does.....I just let my speck of a reef be a reef.

I suspect that if I started doing all of these things, hooking up all the latest equipment, using all the recommended products, etc...my tanks and my mind would be a whirlwind of confusion too.........

I can grow SPS as good as I can a Kenya Tree in my tanks....Something must be right for this to happen. Only piece of equipment I use is a skimmer....and this is because I feed 4 times a day. Im not completely crazy...I could cut back on the feeding and go back to skimmerless as I had done for years....but my fish like to eat and they are natural grazers, dont hold much to begin with at a time, so they HAVE to get hungry much more often than many care to mess with. So I chose to feed them as they should be fed and keep their water pretty close to what they are accustomed to in the wild, so I use a skimmer rated far less under than most would dream of using, to balance out things.

I can just get out of the shower, spray me some Juicy Couture in the air, walk under it so it falls down on me, and turn around and get neck deep in my tanks.....never an issue, never any effect from this. But I could also do this when going deer hunting and the other hunters couldnt ever figure out why I was always the one who got a shot that day all perfumed up and they couldnt even catch sight of a deer, much less shoot one.

All I am saying is that corals and deer and every other thing were trying so hard to keep captive or hunt down did not or does not come from the sterile environment we try so hard to keep them in or believe they come from. I never used those deer lures when hunting, never hunted upwind, never did any of the things those "seasoned" hunters done and I, 100% of the time, got me some venison when I set out to get it.

When I first started my tanks up, I listened to all this about water changes, dosing and so on....for about a minute......then I relaxed and allowed things to be as they may and all of a sudden I had some beautiful live animals gracing my eyeballs with thanks.


Me thinks too many worry and over do so much in this hobby. Slow down and relax! If these things are treated with kid gloves, they will not return to you what you are looking for. Look back through history, just on this site alone, and the proof is in the threads.
Sure there are some awesome tanks and stuff out there that does all of the things opposite of what I do..... I own three as well and I can guarantee you I havent spent near the money, time, nor energy and I have a slammin system that delivers 24 hours of pure enjoyment....no hassles of broke down this and that, no late night worries of why I cant get my PH at this or that....none of that

I guess I just dont understand the other part of this hobby and I feel for the person every time I see someone in a panic or in dire straights over things I never have issues with. I dont think it should be as hard as what I read on any forum.

Dont hate me for having said what Ive said here, Ive just spoken from the heart and would really like to understand why it is so hard for people to relax and not be so anal about stuff. I know people are doing what they are doing for the good of their systems, I just dont understand why go the long route. Because someone told them to? Someone told them this is what must be done?

When I get a frag or colony from someone, of course it takes the animal some getting used to my tanks even more than the usual reefer because of the sterile environment it come from, and going into a tank that isnt so sterile. But when it does finally get settled in? Off to the moon it goes.....and I am left with so much free time to play and enjoy rather than a continuos worry fest trying to keep it in the same tank or near about that it come from. Ive got a wild Pacific Anemone in my tank....2 matter of fact....Ive NEVER spot fed them and they are as ever bit alive and well as the fish are. I have a rock anemone and a condy and they dont get spot fed. I have a lot of things in my tank that many would say they demand to be spot fed....well, sure they do! If they came from a tank that this was done, but if you put them in and leave them alone....guess what? They are made to act like the coral they were created to be and they will begin to act like it if they are just left alone to do it.

My corals thank me every day, along with my Husband, for not being a worry wart. My electric company isnt happy with me I dont guess, but Que sara sara to them...lol... My corals because they can live and grow as they were meant to and my husband for not having him or me in an upset most of the time over the worries often associated with this hobby.


Well, anyway, thats whats been on my mind for a minute. Sorry if I offended anyone, not intended, I guess I just typed what I was thinking.

Been a good many people from some forums at my house and seen my tanks. They ask if these are the ones Ive talked so much about doing none of what most people do.....They cant believe it....I cant believe they cant believe it

I just wished more people relaxed with this hobby. Breaks my heart when I see someone going stir crazy....not talking about the OP, just people in general that do that

Ok, Im out....Im running out of breath

[rbnice1]

poidog81

My stats may well be out of "wack" but I have tried running lower alk and every time I get die off on my corals. And out of "wack" or not I have never heard of someones corals dieing do to alk in the 9's......... Nothing in his testing is out of "wack" enough to me, that would kill sps.

Once again I am nopt a expert. I just know what works for my system.

[shaggy14]

i used to keep my alk around 8.0, it took forever for my small frags to grow. now i keep it between 10-11 and everything grows great. only problem i have is my nitrates, i just cant seem to get them below 25ppm. my parameters are as follows:
all tests are salifert
phosphate- undetectable
nitrates- 25
sg- 1.026
calcium- 435-460
alk- 10-11
ph- 8.0
mag- 1440
ammonia- 0
nitrites- 0

since i switched to a refractometer last year and added a calcium reactor everything has been doing fairly well. i have almost 70 different species of LE and other high end sps, and several zoas and a few lps. only thing i cant keep are chalices.

to the OP, are you using a hydrometer or a refractometer? i used to have a hydrometer(swing arm) and every time i tried sps it would die within a few days. found out while the hydrometer was reading 1.026, my refractometer was reading 1.034, therefore everything was in hypersalinity and would die. just a suggestion though and hope it helps.

[poidog81]

rb - it works for you... great. Not arguing with you. BUT it's not working for the OP so he needs to try something else.

[balloonpilot]

WOW - First off thanks for the response (and the indepth one from LovinLife).

I will admit, Im a gadget freek - So I jumped into this getting the 'best of everything"; skimmer, phosban reactor, refguium, Profilux controller, etc.

I've done every test that everyone has suggested and even used multiple mfg of kits to confirm... Still things are "within spec" and "stable".

Perhaps I need to learn patience with all this and let the tank age?

Perhaps its too perfect, I would guess its opposite of what LovinLife has setup. My water is so clear you's swear it wasnt even there! I say it might be too perfecet because the Chaeto in my refugium has shrunk 1/2 size and parts are white - this didnt happen until I installed the Phosban reactor (loaded with carbon and phosban). I've since replaced that media with ChemiPure Elite --- But Im thinking this weekend to take that filer off all together. I had originally put the filter on because LFS said thats why my SPS are dying.... Said Phosphate was doing it (but i used 2 diff kits and still got zero). And like I said, adding that filter seems to be having a negative affect on growth in the refguim... Perhaps the "too clean" is also having a similar affect on the overal tank???

As for Coraline growth - There is some pink stuff on the rocks. Probably size of quater. On back of tank there is one spot smaller than an eraser head. The back of the tank has a lot small white specs and small white splotches but not certain if thats coraline or not.

After reading all the books, posts, and talking w/ several LFS - Ive tried to set up my tank in the middle to allow a safety margin. I've also seen folks who allow their tanks to flux in between the margins and do well.

So the onlything I can come up with is my tank is too clean and too new. Taking the ChemiPure Elite out of the filter and cutting back on skimming (mines very wet) might allow things to work more naturally and also might speed up the aging process...

Again - I'm only a few months into this so my experiece has only been reading and trying. So far perfection hasnt worked

[poidog81]

I tried.
Good luck!

[LovinLife]

BP, I bet you if you took that reactor off and allowed some phosphates into your water, you will see a change....but ya gotta leave ya water alone too! =) Allow the tank to get some age to it. This is what Ive been saying all alone. Too clean water isnt good for these creatures. They dont have that in the wild, so they cant survive minus the stuff aged water gives. Dont dose your tank. Just feed the fish and allow some food to escape to the sand, then two times a week, to get going in the other direction , take you a razor or anything that will slide along the front of your glass, below sandbed and allow the sand to release things into the water,........then sit back and watch what your corals do

When a tank is dosed AND things allowed to sit in the sandbed, I believe this is where issues come up. Use either or....not both....all the places I have seen where people say not to stir the sandbed....well, yeah, if you have had one sitting with useful stuff in it for years and never stirred it for the tank inhabitants to use....kind of like puting a bowl of food in your fridge and thinking it will keep indefinite....think of your sandbed as a fridge....but USE the stuff in it to feed your things, not allow it to sit. I usually just stir the front, but my clowns do other areas of the tank, so I dont have to. You should see the reaction of my corals after a clown has wallowed a hole in the sand. They open up so full, and at night those feeder tentacles stretch so far I believe they will pop outta the tank.

Dosing only adds to whats in the sandbed already there for your corals, so yeah, youre gonna have water quality issues..........leave the bottled things alone and give them corals whats int he fridge before that goes bad............=)

[dieselgrk]

try cutting back the photo period to 8 hours!

i'm SURE there's someone out there that has had GREAT success keeping sps under halides with a photoperiod of 10 hours!!!!!!! but it's just a suggestion. even with 150 watts, 10 hours seems a bit too long over a 28 gallon

[balloonpilot]

Poidog81 - Dont give up... Im listening to everyone. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that I've got to do something different.

I can see one other thing I've been doing possilbly 'wrong' - Too many water changes. I've been doing them weekly and usually between 5 and 10 gal (which is a lot on a 28 gal system). So its probably like resetting everything every week. Given what I'm hearing, it would probably take my tank 4x as long to age since its kept so clean.

I'm thinking that I need to dirty it up a bit then after the tank ages, maybe put filteratoin back on to cut back but not too much.

Heck at this point Ive got nothing to lose.

[balloonpilot]

dieselgrk -

Now thats something 'new' ... I know when I had longer than 10hrs red algea would grow on the sand in a few days (I was doing 14hrs). At 10hrs I dont have the alge problem. But maybe 10 is too long for SPSs ..

Any one else comment on the duration of light?

[Charlie Davidson]

Originally Posted by rbnice1

Well not to be disagreeable but:
My pH is 8.1 to 7.98. Mine has never gone up to 8.3 Good luck with that.
My sg is kept at 1.026. It will drop to 1.025 occasionally.
My Ca is kept at 480-500
My Mag is kept 1550-1600. Really helps with some nuisance stuff.(Just me. I know lot that dont keep this near this high.)
My Alk is kept at 9.6-10. When mine gets down to 8 I start gettingt die off.

Now I dont run a nano. my tanks have all been larger so maybe its different with nano's.

2nd --Those stats

[cnaegler]

I run my halides for only 6 hrs/ day. Actinics are on for 8 hrs/ day. As far as water changes go, most people recommend 30% total volume monthly but i think 10% weekly/ bi- monthly would be more than sufficient. IMO, 2-3 gallons weekly/ bi-monthly for your system

[poidog81]

OP -
Water changes are good!
I do a 4g water change every week. It replaces important trace elements, and remember our systems are "closed" not open like the ocean, so you need to replace water with fresh.
I run a 9 hour MH and 2 hours of antinic (one hour before and after MH). I would say cut yours back an hour or two, but I strongly feel it is not your lighting of your water changes, but your dosing and levels.

BTW, are you acclimating to light when you introduce new corals?

[coolfishy101]

Are you watching the anenome and the hammer coral at night? Could be warefare going on that you may not see during the day. A 28 gallon is pretty small and they can release feeder tenticals pretty far! Hope that helps!

[balloonpilot]

Ive tried to stay up and watch for tenticals, also placed SPSs as far away as possible just to make sure... But I guess its still possible.