NOAA proposes 66 reef building coral on endangered list

[r1racer]

Taxpayer dollars working at their best...smh.

[KafudaFish]

Nm.

[atreis]

smh ... Merrill Lynch's Semiconductor fund?

Nm ... New Mexico?

Someone in New Mexico wants to invest?

[HumbleFish]

I was shocked to learn just the other day that it's illegal to keep most corals in Hawaii. SPS and LPS are completely banned. You can keep zoas, palys, anemones and fish.

[Fsurocks99]

Originally Posted by BlueCorn

The problem, as I see it, is all coral started in the ocean. It's not like we've ever found a frag while walking through the forest.

Chop-shopping wild corals, into frags that are then sold as aquacultured happens all the time. It's an undeniable fact that coral populations, world wide, are in decline. At the end of the day I'd rather be able to show coral, living in the ocean, to my grand kids than fight for my "right" to have it in my tank now. NOAA isn't attacking hobbyists, they're trying to protect something that has no voice of its own.

Completely agree!

[Luiz Rocha]

Originally Posted by BlueCorn

The problem, as I see it, is all coral started in the ocean. It's not like we've ever found a frag while walking through the forest.

Chop-shopping wild corals, into frags that are then sold as aquacultured happens all the time. It's an undeniable fact that coral populations, world wide, are in decline. At the end of the day I'd rather be able to show coral, living in the ocean, to my grand kids than fight for my "right" to have it in my tank now. NOAA isn't attacking hobbyists, they're trying to protect something that has no voice of its own.

+1 And even if those 66 species are added, there are another 300+ that are in better shape and won't be...

[Fsurocks99]

Originally Posted by Luiz Rocha

+1 And even if those 66 species are added, there are another 300+ that are in better shape and won't be...

Exactly!

[Steveb]

and suppose they determine it is to difficult to identify said protected/endangered corals at the species level and it really costs a whole lot to train all of the folks in the field doing enforcement. So then they decide you know what from a cost perspective lets just expand enforcement to cover at the the genus level. That way we know none of the endangered species get by us... There go those other 300+...

I'm also not sure I buy the argument that stopping all collection is going to prevent eventual demise... Yes I am sure it would take some pressure off of of said species but I think a whole lot of other things would need to change to make a real long term change. My position is let the nations that the corals come from determine the level of take that can be supported.

[Luiz Rocha]

Originally Posted by baringcs

and suppose they determine it is to difficult to identify said protected/endangered corals at the species level and it really costs a whole lot to train all of the folks in the field doing enforcement. So then they decide you know what from a cost perspective lets just expand enforcement to cover at the the genus level. That way we know none of the endangered species get by us... There go those other 300+...

That is a lot of ifs... I do work with issues like those constantly, and enforcing agencies will not ban anything at the genus level just because they cannot identify them (at least here in the US, but that is what we are talking about). What enforcing agencies such as fish and wildlife do very often is send photographs (or samples) of shipments to specialists that can determine the species identity when their own technicians cannot.

Originally Posted by baringcs

I'm also not sure I buy the argument that stopping all collection is going to prevent eventual demise... Yes I am sure it would take some pressure off of of said species but I think a whole lot of other things would need to change to make a real long term change. My position is let the nations that the corals come from determine the level of take that can be supported.

Should we make it legal to commercialize rhino horns and tiger "private" parts then? There is no way we can save them just by prohibiting commerce. Habitat destruction (just as what happens with corals) is the biggest threat.

Unfortunately, the nations where coral (and tigers and rhinos) come from are not run by people that actually think about future generations, so we cannot leave these decisions for them if we want to see coral in the future. Most of those nations are run by people worried about immediate gain. And since education (again for the most part) is not very good on those countries, I don't see this situation changing any time soon.

Don't take me wrong, I am not proposing a ban on coral or fish trading, I defend the aquarium trade every chance I have, and I do have a reef tank. It is a great educational tool, people relate to coral reef conservation issues with much more passion after they see a reef (or even a tank). All I am saying is that those specific 66 species are declining, so why put the additional pressure on them? Quite frankly, I don't see this as a threat to the hobby and I sincerely think that most hobbyists should be behind this.

Now here is something that a lot of people don't know: the IUCN Red List, which provided the information that led to this entire debate, constantly re-evaluates the conservation status of those species (at least once every 10 years, sometimes after just 5 years if there is reason to suspect changes). If they start to recover (or even if they stop declining) in the future, it is very likely that they will be removed from the threatened category.

[Steveb]

Very nice reply! and good info. I sure do hope you are right. My main concern is no provision for aquaculture/mariculture in existing endangered species act. Not the wild take prohibition so much..

[Luiz Rocha]

Originally Posted by baringcs

Very nice reply! and good info. I sure do hope you are right. My main concern is no provision for aquaculture/mariculture in existing endangered species act. Not the wild take prohibition so much..

It kind of works to a certain extent with sea horses. They are protected by CITES (meaning that they cannot be traded across international borders), but aquacultured ones are exported from Venezuela (and I visited one of their nice aquaculture facilities in Margarita Island). But things can always go wrong...

Anyhow, I am keeping an eye out for how this is progressing and will give everyone updates as it goes.

[jdhuyvetter]

NOAA updated the website. More info:
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/corals.htm

Excerpt that pertains to us (red is mine):

What about nurseries, grow-out facilities, aquariums, zoos, and corals in captivity?

Maintenance and asexual propagation of endangered corals in a nursery would not require a permit. Additional activities such as experiments, transfer, or outplanting of captive animals will require a permit. Import or export may be authorized under a permit only for research or enhancement purposes.

ESA permits cannot be issued to import, export, or take listed species for the purpose of public display. Public display may occur if it is incidental to a permitted scientific research or enhancement activity or if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing. Selling, receiving, transporting, or shipping listed species in interstate or foreign commerce is prohibited, even if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing.
For corals currently being maintained, demonstrating that the animals were in captivity before the final listing decision is your responsibility. Please contact us at 301-427-8401 for information on this process.

[Steveb]

Looks like they went wrong...

[KeithB]

Yup! Looks lie they pretty much ignored everyone's comments regarding this.

[Floyd R Turbo]

They are posting information in preparation for the possible classification. Nothing has been decided as of yet, according to that page.

[Ldagger]

I tried calling them to get an answer on how to prove you have such and such coral etc. Waited on the line for awhile and gave up. I guess at the end of the year law enforcement will start stalking this site to bust people since they have nothing better to do with our tax money.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Probably not as draconian as you think, but you never know. i know one F&W guy that says he drives by a store that has an illegal Arowanna in the front window all the time, but unless someone reports it, he can't do anything.

So while I'm sure there that even if this goes into effect, it will be impossible to enforce on the general public. Instead you will hear of instances when someone gets reported and goes thorough the hellish process and has all of their livestock, tank & equipment confiscated (and killed).

[TankStudy]

Selling, receiving, transporting, or shipping listed species in interstate or foreign commerce is prohibited, even if the specimens were legally held in captivity at the time of listing.

So these endangered corals have become even more endangered. They can't go anywhere now and are doomed to die in our tanks. Nonetheless, anyone could frame me for trading them frags or bits and pieces of these corals. So my best option atm is to toss all of these endangered corals or find someone to legally outplant them. I wonder what route people will choose. Face government actions, increased taxes by having corals outplanted or simply just dumping them in the garbage. What do you think people will do?

[jdhuyvetter]

I think there will be alot of renaming going on. A 30,000 Leagues lokani will now be a 30,000 leagues acro. That's my game anyway. I haven't run the DNA to prove what I have or don't have.

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Ldagger

I tried calling them to get an answer on how to prove you have such and such coral etc. Waited on the line for awhile and gave up. I guess at the end of the year law enforcement will start stalking this site to bust people since they have nothing better to do with our tax money.

If this goes thru, we might get all of our usernames entered into a national database. And they'll have to create a whole new law enforcement agency to police/monitor us. We'll go from obscure to notorious overnight!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Nah, they'll just make us all wear ankle bracelets.

[TankStudy]

I've only read about "Prohibition" maybe I may get to actually live it!

[atreis]

Nonetheless, this is just a hobby based around a threatened environment. I'd rather that environment survive than my hobby.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well that is one perspective, but what if the hobby is all that is left after the environment has destroyed the wild species? Are we then to destroy the captively held species in the name of following the ESA or are we to be allowed to keep them in hopes of propagating and repopulating?

[jdhuyvetter]

Originally Posted by atreis

Nonetheless, this is just a hobby based around a threatened environment. I'd rather that environment survive than my hobby.

Pretty narrow minded view considering the success rate of many of the species listed due to the hobby. Further, the proposed bill is based on a lot of assumptions and very little fact.