Mindstream Aquarium Monitoring System - Page 6

acesq · 07/30/2015, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electrobes

I agree with both of you, and while I sincerely cringe at the cost, I am going to stay the pledge. I did change my pledge though. Instead of Beta Tester, I decided for the Dec release instead. Having the monitor three months earlier is not worth losing a years worth of discs.

Actually, you lose 9 months of disks by going beta. But that is $270 at $30 per disk and $360 at $40. Not chump change by any means. Don't tell my wife*, but I'm sticking with Beta!

*read as: I know I'm spending stupid money

Electrobes · 07/30/2015, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acesq

Actually, you lose 9 months of disks by going beta. But that is $270 at $30 per disk and $360 at $40. Not chump change by any means. Don't tell my wife*, but I'm sticking with Beta!

*read as: I know I'm spending stupid money

Hahahaha, oh man I know the feeling. My wife is kind, as she realizes I only really spend money on reefing.

acesq · 07/30/2015, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electrobes

Hahahaha, oh man I know the feeling. My wife is kind, as she realizes I only really spend money on reefing.

Mine is as well. We have a "don't ask don't tell" policy with my hobby. Everybody's happy!

dailykos · 08/01/2015, 12:31 PM

Ah, this is more encouraging, from Mindstream's expanded FAQ on their Kickstarter page:

Quote:

The MindStream monitor measures Alkalinity using equations that have been well established and commonly accepted by oceanographic research studies that incorporate CO2, pH, temperature, and salinity as the primary input parameters.

So they ARE using a more comprehensive set of parameters to make the final calculation.

This, on the other hand, suggests the ultimate dream is dead:

Quote:

We know that Phosphate is also a key reef tank parameter and it is an important development priority for us as well. However, we anticipate developing a Phosphate sensor that does not use reagent technology will be especially complex and difficult to achieve.

E46er · 08/01/2015, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailykos

Ah, this is more encouraging, from Mindstream's expanded FAQ on their Kickstarter page:

So they ARE using a more comprehensive set of parameters to make the final calculation.

This, on the other hand, suggests the ultimate dream is dead:

This makes me sad.
If they did alk cal mg nitrate and phosphate I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Then get ****ed off with the monthly disc cost but none the less I'd own one.
My controller does temp and ph(which I don't care about ) so I don't need those not running zeo so don't really need K. Salinity doesn't change in my DT and you would still need a refracotometer to test your fresh mixed saltwater.
The cost of the discs combined with the few tests it does that in my case are relevant is just not worth it.
Drop the disc price or extend the time they last and add nitrate to it and I'd probably buy one.

JB NY · 08/07/2015, 07:41 AM

I think ultimately this is a tough sell to many hobbyists. It is incredibly expensive to buy into and the monthly fee really puts it over the top. I agree some people will go for it, but to me I don't see how I could justify that kind of cost. pH and temp are already done by my controller, and the only parameter they provide that a person keeping a tank long term would care about on a daily bases is Alk. That is a lot of money to pay to see how my Alk fluctuate on a daily basis, the other parameters while important, don't really fluctuate in a mature tank over a daily or even weekly basis that much to justify monitoring it that frequently.

Then there is always the issue of longevity of the company, we have all seen good companies come and go. Having a good product is one piece of the puzzle, being able to run a successful business with good customer services is another. If the company were to go under everything is worthless as soon as the cloud connection is terminated.

kellerexpress · 08/07/2015, 03:41 PM

The monthly cost is a hard pill to swallow for me. Im wondering if you could reduce those costs by not leaving it in your tank 24/7, like pop it in once a week and take a "spot check" of your parameters, then take it out again. Bad idea with something like this?

Settings · 08/07/2015, 04:37 PM

Sorry, but I missed how often the disks must be changed?

805reef · 08/07/2015, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Settings

Sorry, but I missed how often the disks must be changed?

As of now they are saying every 30 days

sixpackgarage · 08/13/2015, 01:42 AM

I think the value everyone needs to be sold on for the $30 is constant 24-7 data monitoring and reporting. There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen in the way you look at water chemistry.. So you need to think of it as not just replacing occasional testing, but implementing a whole new way of looking at dynamics within the tank and gaining an understanding of the interaction between parameters.

Is that valuable to the end user, or not? To some it will, to others it won't. I'm interested for sure, but want to see some really solid results & the app needs to be killer.

den75 · 08/13/2015, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellerexpress

The monthly cost is a hard pill to swallow for me. Im wondering if you could reduce those costs by not leaving it in your tank 24/7, like pop it in once a week and take a "spot check" of your parameters, then take it out again. Bad idea with something like this?

Was wondering the same thing about only using it occasionally.

fixedpoint · 08/20/2015, 01:37 AM

I am excited for this product more because of the direction and progress than the actual implementation. The industry will continue to move more this way over the coming years although it may not be this company or this product that is ultimately successful. The broader movements of the Internet of Things, quantified self, cloud computing, and ubiquitous services make this extremely natural and likely.

The price definitely needs to come down for this to be successful for a mass market and they will need to ensure accuracy, longevity, and more parameters in the long run. But first someone has to find product-market fit, refine the tech, and ship a product. Kudos to the team for boldly bringing it to market. Many companies in recent years have followed the strategy to introduce new tech to higher end customers who pay unreasonable for continued innovation and are more likely to gamble on shiny new objects. Then they figure out how to bring it to a broader audience once they understand who needs it, how it will be used, and have refined the tech (Apple, Tesla).

They could have decided to throw it on Kickstarter for a number of reasons. Possibly because other financing is running out or pulling out; however, it is also likely that they put it on Kickstarter to gauge interest, build community support, and better understand the product. You get a bunch of signed up early adopters, communities (like us) talking about it, and real signals (people paying actual money) to gauge interest, and valuable feedback. That is gold to a new venture.

It seems that some people are excited about reactive automatic dosing and others are excited about possible early warning potential. Personally, what excites me the most is just the data itself. Imagining giving motivated hobbyists near real-time streams over long periods of time correlated with specific events, I'm sure that we will be able to discover associations that we previously didn't know and quantify things that perhaps were only understood anecdotally previously. I would love to run analyses and build models on such data. This doesn't negate the need for experience or intuition, but rather complements it and helps us to add a bit more analytics to our hobby.

I'm cheering them on and hope other companies will work on the problem as well.

oldbones · 08/20/2015, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixedpoint

Personally, what excites me the most is just the data itself. Imagining giving motivated hobbyists near real-time streams over long periods of time correlated with specific events, I'm sure that we will be able to discover associations that we previously didn't know and quantify things that perhaps were only understood anecdotally previously.

THIS!!!

Well put, and I feel the same way. In fact, that's why I've pledged my bucks to get one ASAP! I would LOVE to see an ongoing, continuous graph of my parameters. It will illuminate how one affects the others, what each does over the course of a light cycle, how opening a window or running the AC changes things, etc. In a hobby where we continually extol the virtue of "stability", this kind of data seems invaluable to me.

I do admit I find it a little funny that half of the naysayers have just as much money wrapped up in their Apex. Guess who will be next to bring more monitoring to their platform? I'd bet Neptune is working furiously behind the scenes to catch up to Mindstream in this area.

soulpatch · 08/20/2015, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldbones

THIS!!!

Well put, and I feel the same way. In fact, that's why I've pledged my bucks to get one ASAP! I would LOVE to see an ongoing, continuous graph of my parameters. It will illuminate how one affects the others, what each does over the course of a light cycle, how opening a window or running the AC changes things, etc. In a hobby where we continually extol the virtue of "stability", this kind of data seems invaluable to me.

I do admit I find it a little funny that half of the naysayers have just as much money wrapped up in their Apex. Guess who will be next to bring more monitoring to their platform? I'd bet Neptune is working furiously behind the scenes to catch up to Mindstream in this area.

The issue for many of us is not the initial cost. SPending a couple hundred is easy. But my Neptune doesnt charge me monthly for 60% of stuff I dont want or need... That is the portion that many of us are balking at. Spending $30+ a month for really 3 or so parameters is a bit much to ask.

805reef · 08/20/2015, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soulpatch

The issue for many of us is not the initial cost. SPending a couple hundred is easy. But my Neptune doesnt charge me monthly for 60% of stuff I dont want or need... That is the portion that many of us are balking at. Spending $30+ a month for really 3 or so parameters is a bit much to ask.

That's because Neptune doesn't have consumables...

I am a big fan of Neptune and the apex myself but let's say they developed their own probe or something to monitor alkalinity. Let's say it costed the same as the conductivity probe ($125) and had to be replaced yearly... that's over 10 bucks a month. Then lets say that did the same for calcium and mag. That's 30 bucks a month just for those 3 parameters already. And that's being generous saying only needing to be replaced yearly.

edit: Also if you add in the ph probe which is supposed to be replaced yearly at around 70 bucks or so(not sure since I've never replaced it in the years I've had my apex) then that makes it even more.

With the mindstream you are monitoring so many more parameters that right now we don't do consistently so we don't know the benefits of it. But I think once we have it running we will find how valuable one or two of them are.

It is a lot a money to do it but for me the benefits outweigh the cost.

jason2459 · 08/20/2015, 08:55 AM

Not testing those parameters constantly every second of every day doesn't seem to have effected anyone in the past 50 years of reefkeeping. Longest running tank on here I think gets tested with 30 year old test kits once every 10 years or so.

Saying that testing everyday will miraculously revolutionize reefkeeping is a stretch. Peaking the interests of hobbyist and possibly answering some questions from scientists maybe possibly.

The up front cost doesn't bother me at all. It would peak my interest at a much much lower monthly cost.

calistyle · 08/28/2015, 02:53 PM

I plan on keeping a disc on hand as spare. Once my levels seem to test off the norm, I'll replace it.

Since a disc tests so many parameters, I imagine that the 30 day limit might be to only to a few, while other elements will be fine longer. To me, it depends on which one runs out first, if it's my Ca or Kh, I'll replace sooner. If it's oxygen or something else, I might hold out until other areas in disc exhaust.

MellowReefer · 08/30/2015, 11:29 AM

I was thinking about it but like many the $30-$50 per month really bothers me. Especially after we heard that the discs would last 3 months and that seemed a lot more reasonable. I could see myself using it for a few months, seeing that my cal/mag/alk is pretty much as I thought and maybe make a tweak to my dosing, but after that just letting the discs expire and maybe popping in a new disc every six months or so to check it. It would be a cool new toy for a while but I don't feel like I need it.

dtaranath · 09/02/2015, 12:36 PM

They just announced that the price of discs will now be $34.95/mo, but that's with a 12-month contract.

soulpatch · 09/02/2015, 12:39 PM

bit too late for their kickstarter. I might have gotten in on it had I known this a while ago. I will take a look at MACNA and ask some questions but IMHO they have totally botched this rollout and are not trying miserably to react to that...

oldbones · 09/02/2015, 02:11 PM

The kickstarter goes through MACNA, they are obviously counting on the show to fill out the rest of the pledges.

DO EEEEET! (You know you want to!)

soulpatch · 09/02/2015, 02:16 PM

Yes I want to but I wont at this point. Too much fluctuation and I am a bit concerned that they needed a kickstarter this late in the process.

I will make sure I see it in person this Sunday at MACNA. I cant see MACNA brining in the 200K still needed for the kickstarter though.

Ginu · 09/02/2015, 02:40 PM

Mmmm I don't see this happening and I'm still a little skeptical.

Happyschneider · 09/02/2015, 03:01 PM

I could imagine that the kickstarter is just for PR. I am more worried on the accuracy and ownership of the data. And price as others said. Besides, it looks like it won't come to Europe anytime soon.

nuxx · 09/02/2015, 04:03 PM

Just a little too much IMO

$20 a month and $300-400 upfront would be better.

Also would like them for two tanks, just too much.

Also if I got one, I'd have to figure out some way to code something to take the data provided by it and feed it to my Apex someway.

Sounds like too much work hahah

08/07/2015, 07:41 AM	#131
JB NY Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 9,207	I think ultimately this is a tough sell to many hobbyists. It is incredibly expensive to buy into and the monthly fee really puts it over the top. I agree some people will go for it, but to me I don't see how I could justify that kind of cost. pH and temp are already done by my controller, and the only parameter they provide that a person keeping a tank long term would care about on a daily bases is Alk. That is a lot of money to pay to see how my Alk fluctuate on a daily basis, the other parameters while important, don't really fluctuate in a mature tank over a daily or even weekly basis that much to justify monitoring it that frequently. Then there is always the issue of longevity of the company, we have all seen good companies come and go. Having a good product is one piece of the puzzle, being able to run a successful business with good customer services is another. If the company were to go under everything is worthless as soon as the cloud connection is terminated. __________________ -Joe TOTM Sept 2002 \| Reefland April 2004 \| CORAL Magazine Nov 2007 Featured Tank "Coral Reef Aquarium" 2011 \| Reef Spotlight 2018 Current Tank Info: 270G SPS Tank, 140G sumps, 35G Frag Tank, Ultra Reef Akula UKS-200 Skimmer, Apex, Giesemann Spectra 3x250W MH 4x80W T5, 2xReefbrite Tech 72" Blue LED, Triton Dosing, ARID C30 Algae Reactor, Maxspect Gyre

08/07/2015, 04:37 PM	#133
Settings Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Diego Posts: 229	Sorry, but I missed how often the disks must be changed? __________________ 140g 48x26x26 Euro Braced.

08/13/2015, 01:42 AM	#135
sixpackgarage reef mechanic Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 819	I think the value everyone needs to be sold on for the $30 is constant 24-7 data monitoring and reporting. There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen in the way you look at water chemistry.. So you need to think of it as not just replacing occasional testing, but implementing a whole new way of looking at dynamics within the tank and gaining an understanding of the interaction between parameters. Is that valuable to the end user, or not? To some it will, to others it won't. I'm interested for sure, but want to see some really solid results & the app needs to be killer. __________________ my build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2512689 my fuge thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2523500 Current Tank Info: DSA NEO 65G reef powered by Kessil

08/20/2015, 08:55 AM	#141
jason2459 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 9,671	Not testing those parameters constantly every second of every day doesn't seem to have effected anyone in the past 50 years of reefkeeping. Longest running tank on here I think gets tested with 30 year old test kits once every 10 years or so. Saying that testing everyday will miraculously revolutionize reefkeeping is a stretch. Peaking the interests of hobbyist and possibly answering some questions from scientists maybe possibly. The up front cost doesn't bother me at all. It would peak my interest at a much much lower monthly cost. __________________ rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. \| 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank

08/28/2015, 02:53 PM	#142
calistyle Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,982	I plan on keeping a disc on hand as spare. Once my levels seem to test off the norm, I'll replace it. Since a disc tests so many parameters, I imagine that the 30 day limit might be to only to a few, while other elements will be fine longer. To me, it depends on which one runs out first, if it's my Ca or Kh, I'll replace sooner. If it's oxygen or something else, I might hold out until other areas in disc exhaust. __________________ 75G Crystal D \| Giesemann Aurora Hybrid \| Apex G \| Nero 5s \| Tunze ATO \| BM Doser

08/07/2015, 03:41 PM	#132
kellerexpress Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 504	The monthly cost is a hard pill to swallow for me. Im wondering if you could reduce those costs by not leaving it in your tank 24/7, like pop it in once a week and take a "spot check" of your parameters, then take it out again. Bad idea with something like this?

08/20/2015, 01:37 AM	#137
fixedpoint Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 134	I am excited for this product more because of the direction and progress than the actual implementation. The industry will continue to move more this way over the coming years although it may not be this company or this product that is ultimately successful. The broader movements of the Internet of Things, quantified self, cloud computing, and ubiquitous services make this extremely natural and likely. The price definitely needs to come down for this to be successful for a mass market and they will need to ensure accuracy, longevity, and more parameters in the long run. But first someone has to find product-market fit, refine the tech, and ship a product. Kudos to the team for boldly bringing it to market. Many companies in recent years have followed the strategy to introduce new tech to higher end customers who pay unreasonable for continued innovation and are more likely to gamble on shiny new objects. Then they figure out how to bring it to a broader audience once they understand who needs it, how it will be used, and have refined the tech (Apple, Tesla). They could have decided to throw it on Kickstarter for a number of reasons. Possibly because other financing is running out or pulling out; however, it is also likely that they put it on Kickstarter to gauge interest, build community support, and better understand the product. You get a bunch of signed up early adopters, communities (like us) talking about it, and real signals (people paying actual money) to gauge interest, and valuable feedback. That is gold to a new venture. It seems that some people are excited about reactive automatic dosing and others are excited about possible early warning potential. Personally, what excites me the most is just the data itself. Imagining giving motivated hobbyists near real-time streams over long periods of time correlated with specific events, I'm sure that we will be able to discover associations that we previously didn't know and quantify things that perhaps were only understood anecdotally previously. I would love to run analyses and build models on such data. This doesn't negate the need for experience or intuition, but rather complements it and helps us to add a bit more analytics to our hobby. I'm cheering them on and hope other companies will work on the problem as well.

08/30/2015, 11:29 AM	#143
MellowReefer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 854	I was thinking about it but like many the $30-$50 per month really bothers me. Especially after we heard that the discs would last 3 months and that seemed a lot more reasonable. I could see myself using it for a few months, seeing that my cal/mag/alk is pretty much as I thought and maybe make a tweak to my dosing, but after that just letting the discs expire and maybe popping in a new disc every six months or so to check it. It would be a cool new toy for a while but I don't feel like I need it. __________________ Current tank: 125 Gallon Mixed Reef set up February 2012

09/02/2015, 12:36 PM	#144
dtaranath Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 542	They just announced that the price of discs will now be $34.95/mo, but that's with a 12-month contract. __________________ ______________________ 220g mixed reef

09/02/2015, 12:39 PM	#145
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	bit too late for their kickstarter. I might have gotten in on it had I known this a while ago. I will take a look at MACNA and ask some questions but IMHO they have totally botched this rollout and are not trying miserably to react to that... __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

09/02/2015, 02:11 PM	#146
oldbones Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 940	The kickstarter goes through MACNA, they are obviously counting on the show to fill out the rest of the pledges. DO EEEEET! (You know you want to!)

09/02/2015, 02:16 PM	#147
soulpatch Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 4,017	Yes I want to but I wont at this point. Too much fluctuation and I am a bit concerned that they needed a kickstarter this late in the process. I will make sure I see it in person this Sunday at MACNA. I cant see MACNA brining in the 200K still needed for the kickstarter though. __________________ 150 SC tank build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2550948 Some have bar tabs. I have a coral tab at my LFS. Life goals.

09/02/2015, 02:40 PM	#148
Ginu Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Vancouver Posts: 130	Mmmm I don't see this happening and I'm still a little skeptical.

09/02/2015, 03:01 PM	#149
Happyschneider Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Basel, Switzerland Posts: 350	I could imagine that the kickstarter is just for PR. I am more worried on the accuracy and ownership of the data. And price as others said. Besides, it looks like it won't come to Europe anytime soon. __________________ My build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2517452 180 liter, sumpless reef, no skimmer for the moment. Current Tank Info: Juwel VISION 180, currently only invertebrates, planning to have low bioload as I have no skimmer and no refugium for the moment.

09/02/2015, 04:03 PM	#150
nuxx RC Sponsor Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 3,990	Just a little too much IMO $20 a month and $300-400 upfront would be better. Also would like them for two tanks, just too much. Also if I got one, I'd have to figure out some way to code something to take the data provided by it and feed it to my Apex someway. Sounds like too much work hahah __________________ Peter TankStop - Fish and Coral 470G Display - Build Thread Current Tank Info: Retired - 470 Gallon Mixed Reef (120x29x31")