URGENT: Possible sick clown...

[GSMguy]

dont net them use a drinking glas and shoo them into it one at a time

[Slakker]

Good idea...less risky...thanks!

[redvipe2010]

Originally posted by traveller7
Hmmm, clowns are actually jumpers....I'd find something to cover the tank. Egg crate(light diffusion grating from Home Depot/Lowes) is not a bad longer term solution. Near term, use a lower water level to be safe, until you find a cheap and effective cover.

Your right, I assumed he was talking about glass covers when he said he didn't get a cover.

[Slakker]

Alright...got everybody transferred over. the clowns are hanging out near the bottom, I think they're freaked out by their reflection or something.

Here's a video so you can see how they're behaving. I've since added a few ORA Glo pellets and a crushed up Reef Herbivore pellet, but they haven't shown much interest in them. They went after it initially when I put it in, but ignored it once it hit the ground.



The spots seem to have become less obvious, but I'm still concerned.

Scott...according to the site you sent me to, if it is in fact Amyloo, I would need to treat with copper, unless there's another way?

After running around searching for the eggcrate and getting a 5g jug of distilled water (couldn't get RO in anything other than 1g, and certainly didn't want to transport 10 of 'em.) they seem to have gotten a lot more comfortable in the QT tank and are now enjoying the PVC.

I'm slowly adding ~1g of distilled water right now to start the process of bringing them down to Hypo.

[traveller7]

Congrats on the progress to date, you are ahead of the game and will be prepared for new additions later

First off, it is just the fish in the hospital tank, right?

Copper would be best if it is Amyloo. Don't go there yet. I would suspect the clowns in the pet shop would show signs of it now. Have you been shopping for supplies in the same shop the clowns were sourced from? If so, are the remaining clowns covered in junk, swimming head up or down in the corners?

I also suspect frozen brine should be on the buy list for today or tomorrow. Try to get get an enriched type, I pick up spirulina enriched personally. This should be easily obtainable and even though folks will come out of the woodwork decrying it's non-nutritional benefits, my breeder clowns don't seem to mind it mixed in with a good variety ;>)

Locating a local shop with PE mysis and cyclopeze will be a bit more difficult but the local fish clubs should be helpful.

Getting them eating, and eating well, is the next real task.

Be on the look out for them swimming in place head up or head down.
Be on the look out for a whitish slime.

Continued good luck and patience.

[Slakker]

Okay.

It's just the clowns in the hospital, yeah, the snails and peppermint shrimp are in my 3/4 full main tank (mixing up another batch of salt as we speak to finish that off). I'm correct in assuming that inverts are not at all affected by the same parasites and diseases as clowns are?

Also, I haven't seen them swim head down or up in any one place as of yet, but they do list slightly to one side from time to time and will kind of nip at the glass on the bottom. They physically appear to be normal at this point, as far as I can see, but don't seem too excited about eating.

Here's the tank with the eggcrate on (heating up some freshwater to bring salinity down, though I'm nervous about trusting the hydrometer.)



Edit: I just tried to feed them a few ORA-Glo pellets, and they went nuts over it, but the pieces were too big for them, so that's a good sign, right?

[traveller7]

It is unlikely the inverts would be suitable hosts for the "bugs".

Feeding small clowns is definitely a challenge, until they start eating, then getting them to stop becomes problematic ;>)

Hydrometer accuracy is an issue, especially with swingarm styles. Again someone in a local reef club should have a refractometer with which you can compare yours.

[Slakker]

I posted in the forum that MARS runs over at www.madisonreef.com, but I haven't gotten any responses yet. I guess I'll give them a status update and see if anyone's willing to help out.

[Slakker]

I've started moving towards Hypo by adding three cups of freshwater every couple of minutes. I plan to do this until I've got a gallon in. I plan to do this every 12 hours until the tank is full, testing with the hydrometer after I've got every gallon added to see where I'm at. I am afraid to get too close to hypo with the swing-arm hydrometer, and may take a trip yet again this evening to try to find one of those floating hydrometers, as I understand they are more reliable than the swing-arms.

[Slakker]

Also a quick question...

If they're having trouble getting food before it hits the bottom, should I turn the filter off for a few minutes to give them a better chance to eat?

[redvipe2010]

I had a floating hydrometer once, it was off a lot. Can you check your swing arm with a LFS's refractometer?

That sounds like too much fresh water too fast to me. Not sure on that one though, I've never had to treat ich. But I'm not sure I'd bring the Sg down so fast.

Turning off the filter for a few minutes isn't going to hurt the tank, it may startle the fish. How have the fish been doing? Are they freaked out? Don't be dumping too much food in or you will pollute the tank.

[Slakker]

I've just been adding little bits of food here and there, and after 5 or so minutes I siphon out as much of the food as I can get. I put as much water back in as I can without the food ending up back on the bottom of the tank.

I dropped the SG from 1.021 to 1.018 in the course of about an hour...is that too fast? The site article linked to in the thread recommended changing out 20% of the water every 12 hours to bring salinity down, but I thought that was way too drastic of a change and cut it in half. Still too much?

They were a little freaked out at first, which could be why they weren't eating too readily earlier on. They seem to have calmed down quite a bit, but are still not entirely happy.

The male spends a lot of time scooting along on the bottom of the tank, sometimes stopping on the bottom and just breathing for a moment or two. He always seems to be leaning a bit to the left.
The female from time to time will nip towards the bottom of the tank for a few seconds, but otherwise swims fairly normally. I'm not sure if this is the behavior Scott cautioned against relating to Amyloo or not, but she leans to the left from time to time as well.
Both fish open their mouths when they breathe, though I'm not sure if maybe I just never noticed this before and it's completely normal.

On the plus side the male tips to one side and bends a little sometimes when the female rushes him, so they're exhibiting pairing behavior...that's probably not a terrible sign.

[Slakker]

Also, great idea, i'll head somewhere tomorrow and check the accuracy of my hydrometer before I add anymore freshwater.

[redvipe2010]

I took this from the summary, is this your goal?:

Lower the salinity to 12-14‰ (specific gravity: 1.009 @ 27°C) over a 72 hour period

[traveller7]

You can drop the specific gravity a from 1.021 to 1.015 or so in the first 24 hours without issue. Yes I have brought fish down much faster, but I don't think you need to do that at this point.

Definitely want to compare your hydrometer to one that is calibrated to go down further. Plan on at least 4 points a day unless conditions change.

Going back up takes time and is best accomplished by topping off the evaporated water with full strength SW. This takes a few extra days/week/maybe two. But when the little clowns live long past 15 years old, what is an extra week between friends?

Challenges of the hypo environment:

-very little bio filtration going on, ammonia can spike.
-very little pH buffering, pH can plummet quickly.

Measure pH, Ammonia, and Specific Gravity daily, if not more frequently.

[traveller7]

Eating is crucial now, shutting down the filter or if it is adjustable cutting it back a bit is fine, but:

1. You have no idea how many little fish have croaked because a filter was not restarted. Many of us, including myself are already in that club and prefer not to add new members ;>)

Clowns will also pick at the food laying on the bottom a bit, especially if they are a bit on the skinny side. See if you can get a close up of the fish and post the pics.

Breathing rate will be higher now with potential parasites, all the changes in surroundings, and activity.

Take your time, keep the water in check, and feed them.

Cheers.

[Slakker]

Thanks again, Scott.


Can you describe more in-depth the swimming head up or head down? I see my female every once in a while swim almost straight up for maybe an inch or so, and just for ~two seconds, and then go back to swimming along on the bottom. Is this something to worry about?

I will for sure be heading to an LFS to have the accuracy of my hydrometer checked. I may bite the bullet and pick up a refractometer if I find one...It'll come in handy in the future anyways.

I saw them nibbling at a few bits that were on the bottom earlier, so that makes me feel a little bit better. The thing that still makes me nervous though is the fact that they kind of tilt to one side, and that they spend so much time against the glass on the bottom of the tank.

Also, what should I do in case of a drop in pH? Is there a preferable additive or should I just mix up some hypo-level saltwater and do a water change?

Of course, it's night time and I'm going to worry myself sick again...I guess I just don't have the confidence that I'll be able to pull this off, I'm worried that I'm going to screw something up like I did to get them into this mess.

[traveller7]

It is not unusual for them to swim in all directions, but if they park in a corner or quiet area and point up or down, fins clamped tight, swimming in exagerated fashion but not moving forward or backward, for more then 30 seconds....then additional action may be necessary.

Refractometer is handy, very handy. Hit up some of the sponsors to see if you can find one cheaper.

Nibbling is good.

Tilting is not that unusual in a bare bottom high flow environment, may not be anything at all.

Best case, small frequent water changes, and siphoning left over food and waste will prevent pH crashes.

If the pH drifts down below 7.9: Disolve 1tsp baking soda(sodium bicarbonate) in a quart fresh water and add an ounce or less of this liquid at a time. pH needs to change gradually or the fish get burns, go into shock, etc.

Again, patience is your friend and only bad things happen fast. Try to stick to the water changes as your pH support

[Slakker]

Thanks I think I'll have to do a WC earlier than anticipated, as the water is a little on the cloudy side this morning.

Ammonia tests zero and pH is 8.0, but the scale on my test goes from 8.0 to 7.7.

The male seems to be going downhill slightly...I'll see him lay entirely on his side on the bottom of the tank, but after a few seconds the female will come up and nudge him a bit until he starts swimming again. On the plus side, though, I did see him wolf down a whole pellet of ORA-Glo.

I've really gotta get some clean water in there.

[Slakker]

I siphoned out a bit over a gallon of water, including a bunch of food pieces that the little buggers had hidden on me, and added 2 or 3 gallons of saltwater with matching SG and temp, and the water is still pretty cloudy.

What should I do?

[traveller7]

Expect a bit of a bacterial bloom to show up as cloudy water. As long as there is no ammonia, the pH stays stable, and S.G is going in the direction you plan; water should be right.

How do the clowns look and act today?
Anyone come up with some frozen cyclopeze? or Brine shrimp?

[Slakker]

They look clear of infection, but the male will sit on the bottom of the tank, list a bit to the side, and breath heavily until the female comes along and nudges him to get him moving. I'm afraid he might not make it too much longer, but I don't seen an overabundance of the slime coat, white spots, or anything else unusual.

I haven't gotten much of a response at all from my local reefers, aside from "Go buy your own stuff." After class this afternoon I am going to make some phone calls to some stores to see if they even carry what I need.

[traveller7]

Breathing heavily is not good. Nothing visible is good.

Eating 4 times a day, until they looked like they swallowed a marble would be great.

What level is the SG down to according to the hydrometer you have?

[Slakker]

It's at 1.018 still, I have some RO water circulating and heating to be added gradually over the rest of the day.

I really have to go get that frozen food. A friend of mine has some frozen plankton that might get them eating, as well. I'll be picking up a bottle of Selcon and Garlic to supplement after my class ends at 5:00.

[traveller7]

If it is not bite size, it is not likely to be helpful. IME, stressed fish tend to go toward an easier meal or not at all.

I have yet to see Selcon or Garlic do anything, but some folks swear by it.