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04/04/2017, 10:08 PM | #4251 |
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I don't see why in-tank vs external should matter. If the flow rate and the UV output are the same, the results should be the same.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
04/04/2017, 10:16 PM | #4252 |
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04/05/2017, 05:01 AM | #4253 | ||
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If UV is knocking back population of dinos that skimming isn't, I assumed it was because UV gets in the tank, and sees more dinos. |
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04/05/2017, 05:10 AM | #4254 |
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nah, he means add N (and maybe P) in some chemical form like KNO3. To grow algae, it didn't really take off with just heavy feeding for me either. I also added KNO3 and some high P liquid miracle grow fertilizer.
It seems like there's a lag of several weeks between heavy feeding and algae growth. I wonder if we could skip all that by going straight to dosing N + P and skipping dumping tons of food in the tank. Mostly all the heavy feeding grew for me was an army of horrifying bristleworms. |
04/05/2017, 06:22 AM | #4255 | |
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04/05/2017, 06:28 AM | #4256 | |
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Skimmers are great at aeration which I use to my benefit and I don't like heavy mechanical filtration.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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04/05/2017, 07:29 AM | #4257 | |
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04/05/2017, 11:56 AM | #4258 |
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When I had this problem a couple years it almost made me quit the hobby. I had to tear down the whole tank and start from scratch. I find it incredible in that short period of time it looks like there is a solution to the problem. Looks like UV and Fluconozole together are quite effective. If I get them again, i'll be sure to try that.
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04/05/2017, 04:02 PM | #4259 | |
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Skimming is best at removing amphipathic compounds: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php Dinoflagellates are too large to be taken up reliably by a skimmer. It's more like trying to skim a fish than trying to skim a single protein molecule, from the point of view of size, in some sense. Some might go into the skimmate, but dinoflagellates are highly mobile.
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04/05/2017, 05:32 PM | #4260 | ||
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Jason, wanted to pick your brain on something I thought I remembered you saying. When most people beat dinos and prevent them from taking over again, it's usually by finding a new more algae-involved equillibrium (some might say "dirtier"). I think in a previous discussion you said you've managed to keep dinos in check, and cause and end blooms at will - while running a pretty clean, low-ish nutrient system. Am I remembering right? and if so would you talk about your clean tank equillibrium that keeps dinos from taking over. The only other low-nutrient system I can think of that had dinos present but never in bloom was a guy who ran peroxide on auto-doser every hour. |
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04/05/2017, 05:35 PM | #4261 | |
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04/05/2017, 10:04 PM | #4262 | ||
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I really don't consider my tank clean as I don't run any kind of major mechanical filtration and never clean my sand or sump out. But my parameters when measuring nitrates and phosphates say differently. But I don't really try hard or at all to hit those numbers. I did at one point switch from vinegar dosing only to a mix of vinegar and vodka (TMZ's ratio of 690ml:310ml). This actually dropped my nitrates to undetectable and phosphates to consistently under .02 and I didn't like it so switch back to just vinegar. Nitrates are back to ranging around 2-5mg/L and phosphates around .02-.09ppm. It was either switch back to vinegar or start dosing nitrates and phosphates which I find a silly practice that many are doing now. I personally believe it is a balance of consistency but not so much stability. Swings in anything like temp, pH, salinity, etc is fine if it's consistently swinging. Timfish on here promotes skimmerless systems with lots of water changes. Glennf totally the opposite with promoting heavy skimming, heavy filtration, and practically 0 water changes. Both have had systems running over 10 years and looking beautiful. Then you have PaulB with a tank well over 40 years old now with a tall skimmer, ozone, very periodic water changes, a reversed UGF, Algae trough now scrubber, and periodically adds mud and little critters from the ocean. Then every once in a while blows everything around and filters it out with a diatom filter. I personally like his tank and think it's great looking. Who's right? Then look at the ocean and you can find majority is very stable and consistent but you'd find spots of 0 stability yet it's consistently unstable and corals and other inverts grow perfectly well. Look at the thread from down under where the tide consistently goes way out and even exposes corals. Those that are underwater will hit very high temps as the sun beats down on them. Even salinity will increase through the evaporation in the "puddles" left behind. I think the thread is called "How rare is this?" Or near shore reefs where there's consistently run off fluctuating salinity or lagoon reefs. Etc. etc. Throw off that consistency and you get bleaching. Like the great barrier reef. Has been consistently very stable for decades. Now temps are increasing throwing off that stability which is not the consistency it's ecosystem is used too. What's right? I have no idea other then consistency and patience is key. Cyanobacteria has been around from the dawn of life practically. Dinoflagellates around almost as long and is an important part of the holobiont of coral. Heck, cyanobacteria can even produce it's own food. You think we're going to ever totally get rid of it from out tanks? Even if the system is bleached eventually they will return. Can come in from the air, fish, rock, corals, snails, shrimp, etc. They are a part of life. We probably wouldn't be around today if it wasn't for cyanobacteria. Below is a quoted recap of what I do from earlier in the thread. I don't claim it's the right way to do anything either. Just what I do and have done consistently that seems to work for me. I did try an experiment with Metro and it seemed to help reduce at least the one kind of dino that I think is Alexandrium. Mind is a bit fuzzy right now but could look it up I think I even mentioned it in this thread previously. But that dino is back just as it was before. I don't see it with out looking at a microscope though. My tank will live with it as it has been. My guess is there are things that consume it and or just out compete it. But it's hard to say exactly what. They have many advantages over other phytoplankton and algae which they are considered. Like they all don't require light like normal Algae and cyano does. They require many of the same trace and major elements that algae does like Iron, Mg, K, etc. So if you limit those you limit Algae. My Algae is not hindered in growth at all. So if it's not limited I doubt my dinoflagellates are hindered by trace elements. Plus, I feed way more then enough along with continuous automatic water changes to keep trace elements plentiful. Quote:
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank Last edited by jason2459; 04/05/2017 at 10:16 PM. |
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04/05/2017, 10:36 PM | #4263 |
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Oh, and yes I most certainly can promote a bloom of both cyano and dinoflagellates. They seem to go hand in hand with my system. First I will visually see the cyano. Then will come the dino b bubbles I call them which is how I know they are blooming. Then the cyano starts to recede and finally the dinos as well. Usually takes a couple month's. I documented at least one phase of doing nothing other then what I usually do but watch in this thread.
I've purposefully and accidentally have done this. And have future plans to do so again. I have a UV and a flow meter to play with now. lol
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank Last edited by jason2459; 04/05/2017 at 10:42 PM. |
04/06/2017, 12:04 AM | #4264 |
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I've gone through my fair share of changes. I believe that the things that work really do work but not because of why we think they work.
For example, I built the biggest baddest skimmer (really) and it was a monster export machine. But I was feeding constantly... to feed my reef but ultimately, feed my skimmer... so I stopped "skimming" but kept the air injection part of it and now I consider it my monster gas exchanger but I don't export any more. Instead, I grow a massive tub of algae and feed that back to my reef fish whose poop is the primary food source... Basically all the same elements that were keeping my reef healthy before and after are the same... but I call them different things and use them differently. The corals don't care. That's why I think different methods all work for different people... the corals see what they like ... we think they're really different systems. By the way, I use UV when my reef catches a bug (like we get the flu), but it doesn't need to run 24/7... just to cure a disease.
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04/06/2017, 06:37 AM | #4265 |
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Thanks, Jason.
Great reply. Would be so much easier if you had a smoking gun to point to. :-) Much harder telling people the way to keep dinos away in a low nutrient system is.... You must have the patience of a Zen master to defeat the ancient sea monster. |
04/06/2017, 07:13 AM | #4266 | |
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Why I don't comment much on much of the chaos of this thread.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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04/06/2017, 07:40 AM | #4267 |
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Hey guys, despite much searching and reading I haven't found decent information about the lifecycle of the typical dinos we get in our tanks (no ich - this is well documented). Any info, insight or pointers on that?
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mandrieu Common sense is a very uncommon sense... My Tank: 125 G Mixed Reef. Kessil 360. Reef Octopus BH2000. Current Tank Info: 125 Gallon Reef, Kessil 360 |
04/06/2017, 01:30 PM | #4268 |
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You'd need to look through the scientific literature. I'm not sure how varied the dinoflagellates are, but they come in many species. They might have a wide range of behaviors.
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04/06/2017, 09:37 PM | #4269 | ||||||
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There is no fixed cycle. No set rigid phase requirements that can be exploited like with ich. Ostreopsis CAN do sexual reproduction through cysts, but that's not really observed in our tanks - It goes from one annoying cell, grows, splits into 2 annoying cells, and will continue multiplying at up to a division per day until it runs out of something. If it depletes a needed substance like P, it'll remain stagnant and get ready to split when it becomes available again source - different dino, but still. If it hits unhappy conditions (like high ammonia, or as has been reported, possibly metro) it'll make a short-term cyst. If conditions go really bad, it'll make a long term cyst. good papers I can think of Best paper I've seen on the topic: New insights on the life cycle stages of the toxic benthic dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata Great pics of cyst forms of Ostis. Quote:
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04/07/2017, 04:51 AM | #4270 |
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Thank you @taricha. Great info
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mandrieu Common sense is a very uncommon sense... My Tank: 125 G Mixed Reef. Kessil 360. Reef Octopus BH2000. Current Tank Info: 125 Gallon Reef, Kessil 360 |
04/07/2017, 06:23 AM | #4271 |
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Wow this thread is insane !!
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04/07/2017, 12:30 PM | #4272 |
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04/12/2017, 08:30 AM | #4273 | ||
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04/12/2017, 09:25 AM | #4274 |
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But to be clear, it's not the result of high N, its a result of too low P.
Right?
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04/12/2017, 09:36 AM | #4275 |
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Well, systems that have had any combination of high and low N or P have had dino blooms so it's only a piece of the puzzle. My P is normally very low. I normally don't have blooms. Iron is another limiting factor for them that algae and other bacteria could out compete them on. There's also many other trace elements they will need.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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