Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[rsucre]

Hi, I took new measures:

Nitrate: It is now down to 0.75ppm.
Phosphate: Still at 0ppm both regular sample and a sample taken a few mm from the refugium sandbed.

Coral looking good, algae still very little at the back glass, cyano still growing on the display tank sandbed (no change).

I have maintained the 27ml vinegar daily dose.

[Dan_P]

Originally Posted by rsucre

Hi, I took new measures:

Nitrate: It is now down to 0.75ppm.
Phosphate: Still at 0ppm both regular sample and a sample taken a few mm from the refugium sandbed.

Coral looking good, algae still very little at the back glass, cyano still growing on the display tank sandbed (no change).

I have maintained the 27ml vinegar daily dose.

I have found ammonia, or at least a positive test for ammonia, and phosphate in the substrate that is growing cyanobacteria, but the presence of ammonia and phosphate does not necessarily predict cyanobacteria mat formation. There might be cyanobacteria growing on the substrate, just not enough to see without a microscope. Still trying to figure this out and will be following your reports.

[rsucre]

I continue with the 27ml daily dose. PO4 = 0ppm (1ppb phosphorus). Will measure NO3 tomorrow. I increased feeding in the last few days, including reef energy and reef roids.

Cyano still on the sand bed.

I ordered some Zeovit Cyano Clean. Perhaps there is a stubborn strain of cyano. I’m not very happy with the idea of using chemicals, antibiotics, etc. On the other hand, I have not read about any bad side effects of that product. What I found is that frequently it does nothing, not even kill the cyano. So I think I will give it a shot.

[bertoni]

How much ammonia did the test detect?

[Dan_P]

Pore water ammonia running 0.1 - 1.0 ppm (API, Salicylate method, centrifuged test sample measured with Hanna Alkalinity Checker), depending on location but no apparent pattern. I suspect the very fine sand and depth may have created anaerobic conditions. I have restarted monitoring the pore water while I carbon dose with acetate.

“Trying to figure it out” referred to cyanobacteria mat formation. By the way, I now have two new cyanobacteria species taking over duties for mat formation. Unfortunately, I slacked off microscopy work and missed when the transition between species occurred.

[bertoni]

That's interesting. I never got any ammonia when I was testing pore water. I didn't centrifuge the samples, though.

[Dan_P]

Originally Posted by bertoni

That's interesting. I never got any ammonia when I was testing pore water. I didn't centrifuge the samples, though.

I centrifuge after test chemicals are added to remove the precipitate.

The salicylate method also shows some response to organic amines, so I can’t say for sure it is 100% ammonia but it would be a reasonable conclusion.

[rsucre]

Measured NO3 today: 0.25 ppm. So it keeps going down.
Cyano still there as usual.
Now white stuff (cotton, sponge like) is developing in the sump. I think there has always been a little bit of that, but now it is more abundant. Probably bacteria.

Corals are looking good, really no change there. I think that there is even less algae now (was already under control).

I wonder if now is the time to reduce the dose a little bit. Perhaps from 27ml to 24ml per day? Or just increase feeding Reef Roids and Reef Energy? Currently very small amounts of each 2-3 x week at most.

The Zeovit Cyano Clean has not arrived yet.

[bertoni]

You could try reducing the dose a bit. I probably would go that route rather than add more food, but I am more cautious than most about such things.

[rsucre]

I have not reduced the vinegar dosing yet and everything remains the same, but today I noticed a "highlighter pink" color in the silicone of the first section of my sump. It seems embedded or stained into the silicone. This is the original silicon of the sump tank, which is a standard aqueon brand 5 gallon tank and it has been running for more than a year now.

I think that it is biological, perhaps some kind of bacteria, probably due to the relatively high vinegar dose, and related with the white mucus stuff that I also reported a couple of days ago is more abundant now in the last (return pump) section of the sump.

On the other hand, the corals look happy and I want to think that they also look better now (more color).

I will up the feeding A LITTLE BIT (Reef Roids and Reef Energy alternating days). Same small doses, but more days per week. Reef Roids I'm now target feeding following the method by "Billy Pipes". Video here.

Any ideas of what's going on with that "highlighter pink" color in the silicone?

[Daddi0]

The snot in your sump is bacteria. I get a lot of this too. I clean most of it out when I harvest my chaeto. This exports the nitrates/phosphates right out of the tank.

[rsucre]

Originally Posted by Daddi0

The snot in your sump is bacteria. I get a lot of this too. I clean most of it out when I harvest my chaeto. This exports the nitrates/phosphates right out of the tank.

Have you gotten or seen pink fluo coloring in the silicone? What could that be?

[bertoni]

I agree that the pink is likely a bacterial, or at least microbial, growth. I'd probably cut back a bit on the vinegar at this point, but it might be completely harmless. I'd definitely watch for signs of spreading.

[Daddi0]

Originally Posted by rsucre

Have you gotten or seen pink fluo coloring in the silicone? What could that be?

I have not. I do have bright pink algae growing on the glass/rocks (coraline?) but there is not much silicone that you can see on my system. The cryptic and sump are acrylic and my DT is glass with radius front corners (the front and sides are the same sheet of glass) Is it growing on the silicone, in the silicone, or between the silicone and glass.
Cheers! Mark

[Daddi0]

Your vinegar dosing is approx. equal to what I am currently dosing. I have dosed more, a lot more, and pulled back because I was getting a lot of bacteria. My nitrates and phosphates are approx. 0. Daily I feed:
1/2 cube Marine Delight
1/4 tsp of Coral Frenzy
1/4 tsp. TDO
5ml RG Complete Phyto
3ml each Red Sea A&B
Every other day I tweezer feed 1/4 of a prawn tail to my lg. brittles and huge arrow crab
Cheers! Mark

[rsucre]

Hi. An update.

Have been dosing 27ml daily (same dose). I installed a new doser and set it up at 25ml daily.

Just took new measure for PO4 = 0.02ppm. Little increase and I think the ideal PO4 to have. I think it is attributed to the little increase in feedings, since the reduced vinegar dosing (2ml less) was just introduced yesterday.

Cyano still there. Corals looking good.

The Zeovit Cyano Clean has not arrived yet, but I think that I will try it, since the Cyano is persistent.

[juju187]

Hi guys, is there any quantifiable evidence to show that vinegar (acetic acid) results in lower cyanobacteria than other carbon sources such as ethanol or glucose?

I used to only dose vodka for some years and then made the gradual transition to a 1:8 50% mix vinegar and vodka and finally 100% vinegar over a few months period. My dosage rate was 100ml on 120gal drip daily, including kalk.

Over the last couple of months i have had big cyanobacteria flare ups. I have used ChemiClean, done 50% water changes, changed bulbs and reduced light hours to 6, dose good bacteria, tested rodi water supply etc and the cyan keeps returning, increasingly worse. I believe i may have cultivated a resistant strain. I cut back the vinegar gradually to 0 assuming it was fueling. In the meantime my N03 has slowly krept up to 5ppm. P03 is undetectable due to GFO.

I would like to resume the vinegar dosing again but would like to see some evidence it is the least likely food source for cyano. I want to avoid using a using a broad spectrum antibiotic if i can help it.

Any advice and evidence sources would be appreciated.

[Dan_P]

Originally Posted by juju187

Hi guys, is there any quantifiable evidence to show that vinegar (acetic acid) results in lower cyanobacteria than other carbon sources such as ethanol or glucose.

I have seen nothing but anecdotal information. I am also hoping that someone can point to a peer reviewed study.

Much or all of what I have read about controlling cyanobacteria in an aquarium is conjecture. While the reasoning behind these conjectures is reasonable, the science is definitely lacking.

I started dosing acetic acid to see what it might do the cyanobacteria in my fish only aquarium. I have major annual flare ups starting in the fall and lasting into the early Spring every year starting in 2015. This year’s break out is mild compared to previous years and the mats are composed of two new species, which is interesting but annoying all the same.

My tank is in the middle of the annual break out, and I thought it might be fun to see if dosing vinegar had an impact. Just for reference, I am dosing 4 mL per 50 gallons (nitrate and phosphate undetectable most of the time) and will see if anything happens in a month before increasing the dose or quitting. So far cyanobacteria infestation seems unaffected but skimmer foam rate has increased and the solid or floc being collected seems less well formed and slimey, maybe the amount is the same, though under the microscope it looks the same.

[bertoni]

Originally Posted by juju187

Hi guys, is there any quantifiable evidence to show that vinegar (acetic acid) results in lower cyanobacteria than other carbon sources such as ethanol or glucose?

No, we don't have any strong evidence either way. Some people have reported more problems with vinegar than with vodka. In your situation, I'd consider trying some vodka or maybe some DIY NOPOx. I can't guarantee that they'd work any better, though. 5 ppm nitrate should be safe for most any animals, though.

[Stoph70]

If I am dosing during the day and will be dosing it all in relatively short time - is it okay to add a small amount of kalkwasser to a diluted vinegar solution to raise the pH slightly?

[bertoni]

That's probably fine, but you might need to cut back on the other supplementation a bit. Adding Kalk probably isn't necessary for most dosing levels. Have you measured the pH drop?

[rsucre]

Update:
NO3 is now at zero.
PO4 a couple of days ago was at 0.02ppm
Currently dosing 25ml vinegar per day in 5 x 5ml doses

Cyano still persistent on the sand bed.

I started to dose Zeovit Cyano Clean (2 drops per day).

Will see how it goes.

[Dan_P]

Still following

[bertoni]

I'd be interesting in hearing what the Cyano Clean does.

[rsucre]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I'd be interesting in hearing what the Cyano Clean does.

I just applied the second dose of CyanoClean. According to the bottle, it is a "special baterial strain that outcompetes cyanobacteria". 2 drops per 25 gallons.

Some people in the forums report no effect. We will see how it works in my case. If not adverse effects, I will give it its time to prove if it works.