Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

Wow...I come back and this thread is "cookin'" - let me address some issues.

Reefkeeper 27439, I dumped the seahorse's red shrimp - there were 6 of them and I needed the specimen cup I was holding them in as my only available vessle to try to incubate the eggs. It was an honest mistake as I had a net right there at the sink to POUR THEM THROUGH and then FEED THEM TO THE SEAHORSES. They were DOOMED to die either way...my intent for including this was to convey my utter EXCITEMENT to the point of a touch of "carelessness".

As for why the mandarin that you bought 2 years ago died 2 days in...well I can forward a number of guesses but who really knows. Got picked on by tankmates? Was in poor health when you bought it? Was poorly acclimated and died from stress? The "White Slime" is obviously a sign of decay.

OK, I'll do another post to this thread to handle the rest

MP

[mwp]

OK, so back to the Mandarin Spawn. I did what I could with the time I had guys...the results are less than my hopes

The night of the spawn, mere hours before we left for MN, I had the 10 gallon tank ready for the Apogon leptacanthus that were "DUE" to be released that night...thus one of the reasons I was sitting watching the tanks in the first place. The larvae never came (and were released into the tank while we were away, doomed to become food for the other fish in the tank). The tank was full of Tetraselmis, Nannochloris, Rotifers and a small unidentified copepod that flourishes within my rotifer cultures. I figured this "soup" was likely NOT the place for eggs to incubate successfully.

So yes, they went into a large specimen cup hanging in the parent's tank. I ran an airline in with rigid tubing to a bottom corner to create some sort of circulation in the tank...adjustments were pain but I think I set it 'OK'. HINDsight being what it is, perhaps an egg tumbler may have been more successful.

Well, upon returning, most all of the eggs are fungused. There's also white stringy stuff on the air tubing. It doesn't look like ANY are viable..no little eyes or anything. But I don't know how long they should take to develop and hatch either, and a few seem to be perhaps still alive...I'm going to wait a little bit longer (maybe until tomorrow evening) and see what if anything changes/develops.

The only info I really have to go on is a couple relatively vague articles...i.e. the one in Coral's Magazine - have any of you read it and noticed that some of the times & measurements given don't match up? I'm talking like 3-5 inches at 8 weeks or something like that - I"m assuming these are details that got jumbled in translation.

As far as first foods are concerned, my gut was to utilize my existing rotifer/copepod cultures as that's the only thing I really have to start 'em out on. The recent article I mentioned above cites that the larvae are started out on rotifers for the first 2 weeks or so...I guess it just depends on what SIZE rotifers are available. I was really hoping to come home, find wrigglers, and dump them in the still semi-green 10 gallon I had originally set up for those cardinalfish larvae...it seemed like a good way to go.

Well, I'm not about to give up on the few eggs I have that still look like they may be viable. ONE other note; there's a distinct possibility in my mind that the MALE may not have released any sperm...or if he did, it wasn't viable. He's not the BEST feeder on frozen foods - it took a few months to get him to take them, and only in the last couple weeks has he been actively hunting down frozen brine when it's added to the tank. He seems too SKINNY still at this point...so perhaps it will take a few more spawns before things start going better. Meanwhile, the female is FAT and totally healthy...couldn't ask for a better fish on that side of the pairing.

One last tidbit for the evening - training these wild caught mandarins to accept frozen food. It was actually not "that" difficult. I had come across the "mandarin diner" article that's out there and it got me thinking, so I actually started by simply placing a jar of frozen brine into the tank each day.

Along the way, the male and female had a pretty bitter disagreement and she got the brunt of the battle wounds, so I separated her into a "breeder net". I continued the "mandarin diner" training but it only went SO-SO...she "kinda" got it but also freaked out in the jar sometimes (couldn't figure out how to get back out). All the while I was also offering enriched LIVE BRINE to the fish in general, and both Mandarins would take this with relative gusto.

Well, weeks went by and I got lazy with the jar. I continued to add live brine...it would get pulled into the sides of the breeder net by the current, and the mandarin would simply pick 'em off. At the same time I started adding frozen brine WHEN feeding live brine...this too got sucked onto the sides of the breeder net. I'd add some brine when feeding the main tank everyday, and slowly added live brine less frequently.

So, basically, all it really took was to first get the mandarin to accept the live version of the food. Then, adding in the frozen version while feeding the live version, and by having it "settled" and "act" much like the live version, the difference in "presentation" was minimal. Once you start seeing the mandarin accepting the frozen alternative, you can cut back on the live and eventually they're just on the frozen...at that point all it takes is to just make sure they're getting enough nutrition from the food and the conversion is done!

The big key, at least for me, was the isolation in the little pen - no competition for food, the food doesn't get blown away, and there's all the time in the world for the mandarin to examine the food and make a decision. In the case of the female, she really took to it and started to recognize food the moment I swirled it in the water with my fingers...she'll take it right out of the water column. Our male is a bit less aggressive about it, but he too now does feed from the water column as long as he can "look" at the food long enough first. Both will now occasionally take mysis that's put in for the seahorses, but they still prefer the various types of enriched frozen brine.

So, there it is...time for bed!

MP

[mwp]

Sorry, had to come back and add one more little bit of info on how this all started ORIGINALLY, we had a plague of the red planarians in the cardinalfish tank. Having difficulty locating the appropriate nudibranchs (which I DID eventually find, only to have all three DIE and NEVER touch a flatworm), I asked one of my LFS to pick up some green mandarins..preferably a male and female.

We got REAL lucky...since opening his shop our LFS owner hadn't seen a female mandarin. Well, the very next week he found a female (along with 100 males) STILL FLOATING at our area wholesaler's tanks. They never even hit the wholesaler's holding tanks, but went straight back to the shop and were placed in a 20 gallon there. I hadn't even gotten the call...just happened to run by and found them there...he was giving them time to settle in. They stayed at the shop for about a week before coming home...and they NEVER ate a red flatworm. The decision to move them into their "own" tank only really came about when we decided that the new "spare tank" should be a seahorse tank...I wanted a bit more than just the seahorses, and the mandarins were obviously a good fit. During their time in the Cardinalfish tank, I believe the mandarins actually spawned once or twice, as the female would appear very robust and then the next day relatively SKINNY. NOW, having come back after a confirmed spawn and seeing what she looks like 3 days later, I'm confident that those other "possible" spawns were in fact definitely spawning events that went missed.

FWIW,

Matt

[Nagel]

I just removed two posts, AGAIN, on the culling issue. Please, lets keep this thread on trtack, it is about breeding the green mandarin, not your opinions on the ethics behind culling..

I will not lock this thread, mwp has put some good info here and I would like to see it continue.. However, if Frank decides to lock it for a period of time, that is his discretion..

[FMarini]

thanks Nagel
i want to keep this thread open as long as possible. Matt has written his heart and soul in here, and much of it is real nitty gritty observations and useful info. Honestly mandarin breeding is a topic that comes up often- so this is very germaine

However the sidestepping of the thread w/ the culling conversation has got to stop.
Again we are all adults, please take whatever agenda you have outside this forum.
You can debate whatever side of you choose- just not in this thread

I do not want to lock this thread down, but this has got to stop.
Last warning
frank

[Luis A M]

It seems to me judging by the way of thinking and writing,that the culled offender was a young kid,playing with dad´s computer.It does happen.

[mako56]

I got a pair of green mandarins about two months ago I was kinda hopeing for a try at raising the youngins so please keep adding to this thread. And play nice.

[mwp]

Well, it's now Wed....and definitely no mandarin fry to deal with

I've found some additional information that suggests that hatch time might be as little as 2 days...so it's possible we had a hatch and then a die off, although as I mentioned earlier, it looked like there were still solid eggs in there. So MAYBE we had a bunch of infertile eggs...again I totaly believe that's possible because our male is not nearly as "robust" as I'd like any breeding fish to be.

Another tidbit - putting them in the specimen cup with a slow air flow in the corner didn't work well either. I'd say I was running a couple bubbles per second out of the airline (couple being somewhere around 2-4 p.s.). MOST of the eggs were stuck against the sides of the specimen cup, above the water line, when we returned home Sunday. I'm going to have to try a few different incubation methods next time I get lucky enough to collect a spawn...I have the egg tumbler on hand, but I think a reversed flow would work well (as the eggs are boyant). I may actually try to concoct some sort of mini Kreisel or something else that will keep the eggs suspended (granted I'm not sure why I'm trying to reinvent the wheel when the stirring/propeller method is proven already...just hopeing for something simpler I guess).

Well, that's all I have for now...just working on fattening them both up for another spawn down the line.

Matt

[mwp]

Just another followup, it's now Wed. evening and while I don't suspect that anothe spawn is imminent at this point, it is somewhat apparent that the male sure would like to give it another go. He's following the female around, trying to push her up towards the surface, raising his fins hoping to catch her eye....I wonder if we'll get them on a weekly spawning routine like the margaritophorus were for so long (granted, the mandarins hopefully won't "eat the clutch" with regularity)! Gonna sit and watch 'em for a bit before the lights go out...for the most part though, the female seems to be content on just grazing on the back wall.

MP

[mako56]

I am going to have to keep an eye on mine I think they are a bit young to spawn yet though.

[rsman]

i really would like to post more on this thread but its not going to happen today

but

you can raise them initially on rotifers though the smaller ones wont make it, you will also need to find a suitable 2nd food (planktonic copepods ((in whatever stage puts them small)))

you should be prepared for the first few spawning sessions to be staggered between 1 and 6~8 weeks just newbie behavior

the lego propeller works great, the other that works great is from a zagi rc airplane (small diameter high pitch)

[dutt7]

nice pics! my favorite fish!

[mwp]

RSMan, thanks for posting that info. I'm tno sure shy, but most artifical incubation attempts so far have failed...thus I'm still looking for a suitable flow-through type setup, thus maybe the mini kriesle. Let me ask you this; when using a "stirrer", how are the eggs actually circulated? Do the swirl midwater as if stuck in a whirlpool?

My initial thoughts for a kriesle were a small water pump adding water in at the top of a cylinder laid down on it's sides, with both ends covered in a fine mesh that would thus allow for diffused release of the water while maintaining the vertically circular tumbling flow that's so important. (wow, that's a hefty sentence).

At least one fellow poster inquired about anti-fungals...when incubating Cichlid Eggs we used methelyn blue in the tumbler tanks...do you think something like this is necessary when incubating the mandarin eggs (afterall, ours turned into a soupy white mess)?

MP

[jnowell]

Nice Job MP - Good luck with the continuing adventure, I've wanted to give mandarins a go...figure out the easy way so we can all do it I've used meth blue on clownfish eggs, might be worth a shot. I made a pretty effective kreisel with a plastic fish bowl in a 10 gallon tank. air lines on one side, syphon from a hang on into the other. You can see much of the setup here in this video:
http://www.wfrs.org/SH_babies.wmv

Rsman....Zagi Prop Now who the heck else knows what that is other than you and me. LOL I bet it does work like a champ in that application though.

Jason

[mwp]

Jnowell, the link no workie!!! Sounds interesting.

Matt

[Agu]

Dwayne did some research on mandarin breeding a while ago and found some good information, in German. Fortunately his wife was able to translate it for him . You might want to contact him.

One of the things Dwayne learned was that mandarins can get pretty frisky when spawning and jump right out of the tank. I suggest you get some kind of cover so this doesn't happen to you.

[jnowell]

Matt, Ugh! My whole web server no workie right now I'll figure it out, or I'll post stills, it was pretty easy and VERY effective.

Jason

[rsman]

Rsman....Zagi Prop Now who the heck else knows what that is other than you and me. LOL I bet it does work like a champ in that application though.

for those interested and dont know where to get one, any hobby store (online or not) that sells RC airplanes will have them they are cheap, white plastic and will move a whole lot of water even at 1 or 3 rpm and wont damage mandarin eggs

[jnowell]

Sounds like RSman may have the plan...and those Zagi props move a LOT of air at 20,000 rpm too

In case you're still interested in the cheap and simple kreisel, I've attached a diagram. It's all in a 10 gallon aquarium, I got a kit with hood, heater, and hang on filter for $30 at the LFS. I got the plastic 1 gallon fish bowls (flat on the front and back as they sit in the diagram) from Petco for $6.99, they are available online from them or several other retailers.

The white shelf that the fishbowls sit on is made out of plastic lighting diffuser material (eggcrate as some people call it...that one still eludes me).

Takes about 2 hours to build and set up, a drill w/ bits and some airline tubing is about all you need. Not sure if the bubbles would damage mandarin eggs or not, but they are OK for seahorse and peppermint shrimp fry. In fact, things that float tend to stay in a small rotating mass just under the surface in the upper left hand corner of the fish bowl. Obviously both bowls would be plumbed, but I left one out for simplicity.

Good luck man, I think the whole world is rooting for you

[mwp]

AHA! Now it makes sense! Jason, the more detailed description and diagram made it click - what you diagrammed on the right of your tank was basically (exactly) what I was picturing in my head, but couldn't figure out how I was going to make it!

Some questions for debate / discussion while we all await the next spawn (whenever that may be!).

1. I was thinking of setting up the Kriesle in the parent's aquarium immediately post spawn. Is this better or worse than moving the eggs to an emtpy/unestablished 10 gallon?

2. How much "flow" is really needed in a 1 gallon container like this? My initial thought was to use a mini power head with a ball valve to control flow (especially since the power filter option wouldn't work ina stock/hooded Nano Cube). Jason's solution is more simple/elegant, but limits the amount of control one might have.

3. Jason, I presume the air pump created most of the circulation while the slow siphon kept teh water (and eggs) "clean"? Perhaps an alterate would be to "T" off the return feed on the pump in my situation.

4. Post hatch, should the larvae stay in the kriesle for a few days or should they be transfered to a rearing tank?

5. Going back to Mai's article, he states that he has never had any success with any type of air-driven circulation, and that the "prop" was the only successful means of keeping the eggs appropriately "floating". My concerns about the prop are two-fold - first, how does it actually keep the eggs suspended, and 2nd, considering it's electronically powered, how does one regulate the speed/power to make adjustments in the flow for circulation?

6. The bridal viel I have (for coral propagation) seems like it would be too coarse for keeping the eggs in whatever container. Is a micro-type cloth better (i.e. what is used on a Plankton Sieve?) How small do we really need to go here?

---

With all that said, I personally have a plan of attack to create a better incubation scheme...using a plastic flat-sided fish bowl seems like a great way to go...but putting in the tank will present a few unique problems (like how to hang it at the surface). I look forward to any thoughts and ideas....

Matt

[rsman]

time for some more info.

I have not read the article in the coral mag.

however I would have to guess that 3-5" in weeks should have been 3-5mm in 2 months.

everything I tried with air turned out bad, everything from inconsistant airflow rates to water quality. some white snot(the scientific term) is normal and doesnt seem to effect hatch rates, but a lot of snot is bad and leads to poor or no hatching.

the best hatcher for me was a 2 part setup using:

a 10 g tank setup with a canister filter(easier to plumb) setup with a huge input screen covered in 100micron or smaller (while your at the hobby shop you can get CA cheap there) most of the output goes right back into the 10g, whatever I could get out of a .170ID (icemaker) tubing i put into the hatching chamber. a plastic round fish bowl, a 3/8" tube attached at the bottom to act as an overflow, which is returned to the 10g tank, then a propeller is spun very slowly a few inches off the bottom of the bowl. it doesnt keep the eggs submerged, but it keeps them off of the sides, and keeps the water moving. a light on the bottom near the drain tube and keeping the contraption in the dark, and you get babbies in the 10g and eggs stay in the hatcher. the water level in the bowl is kept near the top of the bowl, by raising the bowls top to the level in the 10g tank.

[rsman]

hey this post wasnt here when I started my post, which took 1 hour to write (darn TV)

1. I was thinking of setting up the Kriesle in the parent's aquarium immediately post spawn. Is this better or worse than moving the eggs to an emtpy/unestablished 10 gallon? worse several reasons, ranging from control

2. How much "flow" is really needed in a 1 gallon container like this? My initial thought was to use a mini power head with a ball valve to control flow (especially since the power filter option wouldn't work ina stock/hooded Nano Cube). Jason's solution is more simple/elegant, but limits the amount of control one might have.
put as much flow as you can, but skip the ball valve. you have to keep the water quality high but not at the expence of damaged eggs.

4. Post hatch, should the larvae stay in the kriesle for a few days or should they be transfered to a rearing tank? removed as soon as you can

5. Going back to Mai's article, he states that he has never had any success with any type of air-driven circulation, and that the "prop" was the only successful means of keeping the eggs appropriately "floating". My concerns about the prop are two-fold - first, how does it actually keep the eggs suspended, and 2nd, considering it's electronically powered, how does one regulate the speed/power to make adjustments in the flow for circulation? electronically powered is about the ONLY way you can keep the speed adjustable and reliable however a 3 rpm motor will do fine. they are not easily adjustable and are geared down but do a great job, and are cheap (surplus $5~$15)

6. The bridal viel I have (for coral propagation) seems like it would be too coarse for keeping the eggs in whatever container. Is a micro-type cloth better (i.e. what is used on a Plankton Sieve?) How small do we really need to go here? dont even go there these eggs are FRAGILE one more reason air doesnt work.

[jnowell]

Matt, if the air is bad for the delicate mandarin eggs, then my kreisel is a moot point. But if you or anyone is interested, here are a few points I left out.

You made mention of the lack of control...some parts I left out of the diagram are the little green airflow adjuster valves. I use these to control the amount of water being syphoned, and the amount of air coming in. I'm definitely not saying completely controllable, but it does help.

The beauty of this system (for fry) is that you can close the valve for incoming water....feed....and when they are done eating, you can re-open the valve and flush the uneaten food out into the 10 gallon. My 10 gallon also has a Magnum 350 cannister filter on it...it doesn't matter what kind of turbulence you create outside the fishbowl, so filtration can be whatever you have on hand. I've had this plumbed into a 29 gallon sump with Mag-3 return pump too. This has been a pet project of mine for a while, most things I raise don't even need it, but it does make maintenance a little easier and looks really cool in your fish room

Good luck, RSman definitely has the ticket here....not to mention the experience!

[jnowell]

Oh, also my web server is back up, so you can see the vid of the kreisel in action now.

http://www.wfrs.org/sh/SH_babies.wmv

[mwp]

WOW, very cool! Something like that may actually work with the Mandarin eggs...hMMMMMMMM

Matt