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Old 06/21/2018, 02:25 AM   #1
El Mujadore
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Comments for 40 Breeder Sump Design

Hi,

I recently found a 36x18x18, I have been looking for one to replace my sump for a long time. Before I start getting baffles cut, I would appreciate good input on the image below. PS.. there is a Typo - the ATO column is 8.5" deep not 7.5". And the baffles will be black unless by ATO so I can see through it to the return pump section's water level.

It is for a 120 Mixed reef. I am putting the ATO water in the sump as a compartment because space makes it either that or lose the kalk reactor, no space for both outside this sump.
The return section will have an adjustable 8-11 height

[IMG] photo sump1done_zpstbdxisxk.jpg[/IMG]


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Old 06/21/2018, 06:14 AM   #2
mcgyvr
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Looks like a good setup to me..
I would suggest a strainer on the inlet of the return pump though so make sure your dimensions account for that..


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Old 06/21/2018, 12:07 PM   #3
sfdan
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That little section of the RO/DI water worries me.

1. If your power cuts out and the tank backflows into the sump (which is completely normal), the water levels might go high enough to mix with the RO/DI water, which could seriously drop the salinity in your sump (and eventually your tank) which wouldn't be good.

2. If your baffles aren't perfect and they springs a leak, you might have the same issue with salinity dropping. Normally the good thing about sump baffles is if you have a small leak it really doesn't matter, but in your case it could matter a lot.

I'm the paranoid type, but I wouldn't have 6 gallons of RO/DI water that close to my tank. Just for a rough calculation, if the 6 gallons of freshwater mixed with your sump it would drop the salinity by 10 ppt, and your tank by about 1.5 ppt (in addition to pH, alkalinity and a bunch of other parameters).

Also having the return pump section bigger makes water changes easier and gives you more breathing room in case your ATO breaks. If it were me I'd make that whole end section for the return pump and try to find some other place for the ATO reservoir. Potentially you could put it somewhere far away and then run tubing from the reservoir to the tank.


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Old 06/21/2018, 02:18 PM   #4
billdogg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
Looks like a good setup to me..
I would suggest a strainer on the inlet of the return pump though so make sure your dimensions account for that..

^^^This^^^, but

>>>This too>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfdan View Post
That little section of the RO/DI water worries me.

1. If your power cuts out and the tank backflows into the sump (which is completely normal), the water levels might go high enough to mix with the RO/DI water, which could seriously drop the salinity in your sump (and eventually your tank) which wouldn't be good.

2. If your baffles aren't perfect and they springs a leak, you might have the same issue with salinity dropping. Normally the good thing about sump baffles is if you have a small leak it really doesn't matter, but in your case it could matter a lot.

I'm the paranoid type, but I wouldn't have 6 gallons of RO/DI water that close to my tank. Just for a rough calculation, if the 6 gallons of freshwater mixed with your sump it would drop the salinity by 10 ppt, and your tank by about 1.5 ppt (in addition to pH, alkalinity and a bunch of other parameters).

Also having the return pump section bigger makes water changes easier and gives you more breathing room in case your ATO breaks. If it were me I'd make that whole end section for the return pump and try to find some other place for the ATO reservoir. Potentially you could put it somewhere far away and then run tubing from the reservoir to the tank.
I'm thinking of putting a ATO on my 120. After i find a container, I'll make something to stash it in next to the tank that looks like it belongs in the living room.


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Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, ASM G2 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, no skimmer (yet)
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Old 06/21/2018, 02:58 PM   #5
El Mujadore
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Hi,
Thank you for your replies. @ mcgyvr - for the strainer, I agree a grate and sponge would be good there, I think I will widen the baffles for the return; maybe I will take from the refugium section to do this.

@ SFDan - Yes the mixing of the RO/DI and the sump water would be very bad. I appreciate you bringing that up.

For the ATO failure concern: The current sump (first pic below) is a 30x12x24, the return section is 4 gallons; and it takes ~3 days to go dry if the ATO fails. The new sump would have 1/2 gallon more. In 5 years I have not had an issue so long as I check it at least every other day on the smaller sump.

For the ATO Leaking/Mixing concern

Currently on the smaller sump, the water height gains 6.2 gallons on backflow if my return lines are set to their lowest in the tank. If backflow occurs on new sump, it would go up ~3" under the current design.

You can see I have higher walls for the ATO. I am actually planning on 17" high walls with a lid for the ATO water - so the sump water level would have to go up over 7" to mix, which would be a backflow of over 12 gallons.

And I am pretty confident with my silicone skills and testing to ensure no leaks happen.

I have to do something though, currently my sump walls are too high to easily maintain the sump (22"), detritus is building up, and the fuge (right chamber) is too small. I just cant part with my kalk reactor, thought about putting it in the sump and leaving the ATO water to the side, but the reactor might be impossible to pull out, and if that leaked (much more likely), that could be worse than diluting the salinity.

[IMG] photo 20180527_185210_zps6iueaqh5.jpg[/IMG]

@ Billdog - I agree! I built a box for the chiller to match the stand/waiting room. I wish I could put the ATO water there or on top, but I know my Aqualifter siphons and my ATO water should as low as my sump.

[IMG] photo 20180527_185240_zpsjy5lcqdl.jpg[/IMG]


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Old 06/21/2018, 04:13 PM   #6
sfdan
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Yeah I wouldn't put the kalk reactor in the sump either, that would have a much more disastrous consequence if it were to leak.

In both of my tanks I have the ATO output go up and drain into my overflow box so as to avoid any siphoning issues. Given your situation, I'd consider adding on or expanding that chiller box and put your ATO container on there. Route the output to your overflow box behind the tank and that will just drain directly into the sump anyways.

For me at least, refilling my RO/DI reservoir is the most common thing I do so I always make sure it is easy to access. I'd much prefer doing it with a container relatively out in the open than having to crouch into my stand to do it.


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Old 06/22/2018, 09:44 AM   #7
sfsuphysics
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Take a look at how some of the professional sumps do the tank drain into the sump (go to BRS to look at pictures), many of them have it drain to a small chamber first that overflows into the filter sock area.

Now the reason for this is if you have pipe that goes straight down into the filter sock of where your picture you're going to have a big issue removing/changing filter socks because the pipe won't allow the plastic collar of the filter sock to slide out of the filter sock holder, so you'd have to tilt it (or bend it) at some angle to pull it in and out. And you don't want the pipe to terminate above the filter sock because then water will simply splash into the filter sock area, could cause salt creep issues, and probably would be a bit noisy. Lastly you could have a bulkhead where the drain goes to then another pipe that goes into the filter sock, but then the problem is you need to remove that pipe from the bulkhead into the filter sock every time you change them out.


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Old 06/22/2018, 02:25 PM   #8
El Mujadore
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@ sfdan - I did not think of putting the ATO output on the main tank's overflow box. That is a great solution to the siphon issue. I have a lot to consider because I actually think filling the ATO reservoir would be easier to do in the front chamber of the sump, as I have to keep the side chiller box tamper-proof to keep customers from messing with it. So maybe I could re-do the box and put space for the ATO- maybe a flip up port to refill the reservoir. But an issue with that scenario would be that it is not very easy to see the water level or have our staff refill it. If it was in the front of the sump I could just have them check the chamber and pour water in relatively easy.

I have been pondering moving the tank to the right and putting the chiller box on the left, maybe even a refugium on top of the chiller stand, or ATO reservoir. But I think this would be less aesthetically clean and cram the unit too close to the chairs. Not to mention the idea of draining the entire system to move it over, thats rather daunting.

I have a question about your system: What pump do you use for the ATO?
The head height would be 5-6 feet, so clearly my aqualifter would not work. I have used the same aqualifter for over 7 years and I know it is dependable and will not empty too much because of the low flow rate and because the JBJ ATO stops it after ~2 minutes.


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Old 06/22/2018, 02:28 PM   #9
El Mujadore
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@ sfsuphysics,

I agree, I was also pondering whether or not to add a drain section before the sock. It would be a good deal more glass construction, but time and money invested would be well worth it. I was actually working on that in my design last night and I will soon post the new version.
Thanks!


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Old 06/22/2018, 02:35 PM   #10
El Mujadore
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... I could probably do mangroves if I moved the Chiller stand to the left and put a fuge on it. But again, aesthetics, tamper-proof, ect; I kind of like everything concealed. But Mangroves!!!


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Old 06/22/2018, 06:04 PM   #11
sfdan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Mujadore View Post
@ sfdan - I did not think of putting the ATO output on the main tank's overflow box. That is a great solution to the siphon issue. I have a lot to consider because I actually think filling the ATO reservoir would be easier to do in the front chamber of the sump, as I have to keep the side chiller box tamper-proof to keep customers from messing with it. So maybe I could re-do the box and put space for the ATO- maybe a flip up port to refill the reservoir. But an issue with that scenario would be that it is not very easy to see the water level or have our staff refill it. If it was in the front of the sump I could just have them check the chamber and pour water in relatively easy.

I have been pondering moving the tank to the right and putting the chiller box on the left, maybe even a refugium on top of the chiller stand, or ATO reservoir. But I think this would be less aesthetically clean and cram the unit too close to the chairs. Not to mention the idea of draining the entire system to move it over, thats rather daunting.

I have a question about your system: What pump do you use for the ATO?
The head height would be 5-6 feet, so clearly my aqualifter would not work. I have used the same aqualifter for over 7 years and I know it is dependable and will not empty too much because of the low flow rate and because the JBJ ATO stops it after ~2 minutes.
I use the Tunze Osmulator pump, which has no trouble pumping up 5-6 feet. You make a lot of valid points, it seems like you'll be making a trade-off either way.

I will also second the idea of the area before the socks. In my old sump the drain went right into the sock and they were a real pain in the *** to get out. My new sump has a section which then drains into the socks and it is much much better.


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Old 06/23/2018, 02:29 PM   #12
El Mujadore
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[IMG] photo sump2b_zpszlt4xlwk.jpg[/IMG]

 photo sump2c_zpscw7psfvu.jpg


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