Dosing flatworm exit on display tank even without signs of flatworms?

BrettDS · 04/08/2018, 02:02 PM

I recently set up an invert quarantine tank. I’ve been quarantining new inverts in it as well as some cheato. The cheato finished its quarantine period and I added it to the sump of my main tank... and a week later I discovered what appears to be reddish brown flatworms on the glass in the Q tank. Unfortunately nothing was added to the Q tank between the time I took out the cheato and the time I saw the flat worms. So I’m guessing that they were brought in on something while the cheato was in the QT and quite likely they now exist in my display tank having been transferred with the cheato.

So in doing research on flatworms and flatworm exit it looks like flatworm exit is generally considered reef safe, but as flatworms die they release a toxin that can cause health issues for fish and inverts, especially if a large number of flatworms die at once. So, I’m thinking that it might make sense to dose my tank now while the flatworm population is still very low even though I’m not 100% certain that the tank is even infected, rather than waiting until I see evidence of flatworms and risk more die off and a bigger toxin release.

What are your thoughts on this?

rvareef · 04/08/2018, 03:22 PM

your display now has them, once you can see them its usually an infestation, get a wrasse or anther cool fish that likes to eat them

Dsekula · 04/08/2018, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

I recently set up an invert quarantine tank. I’ve been quarantining new inverts in it as well as some cheato. The cheato finished its quarantine period and I added it to the sump of my main tank... and a week later I discovered what appears to be reddish brown flatworms on the glass in the Q tank. Unfortunately nothing was added to the Q tank between the time I took out the cheato and the time I saw the flat worms. So I’m guessing that they were brought in on something while the cheato was in the QT and quite likely they now exist in my display tank having been transferred with the cheato.

So in doing research on flatworms and flatworm exit it looks like flatworm exit is generally considered reef safe, but as flatworms die they release a toxin that can cause health issues for fish and inverts, especially if a large number of flatworms die at once. So, I’m thinking that it might make sense to dose my tank now while the flatworm population is still very low even though I’m not 100% certain that the tank is even infected, rather than waiting until I see evidence of flatworms and risk more die off and a bigger toxin release.

What are your thoughts on this?

I've never dosed falt wormexit in a display, just used it to dip coral. I keep mainly lps and brought in a pink torch that upon closer inspection had tons of pink worms. I did 1cap full to 32oz of tank water held the torch upside down in the mix and bastered it through all worms fell out on contact, this took maybe a min (don't leave it in this concentrated mix). Since this was so quick the coral showed no signs of stress and opened right back up.I qt and redipped but didn't find anymore worms. Now anytime I get a new coral that I can't be sure of flatworms I dip this way. If your concerned about possible die off in the tank I'd dip what you can first, and then consider dosing the tank. I wouldn't wait, if your going to do it get it done while there's only a few so there isn't a huge die off. Do you have any flatworm predators in the tank? If so it's possible they could get wiped out.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

Dsekula · 04/08/2018, 03:30 PM

It's great to have a fish that would eat them but idk the likely hood of the fish getting them off certain corals (many lps come to mind and they love those fleshy tentacle parts) most fish won't really enter the tentacles , so it kind of depends what stock op has.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

phenom5 · 04/08/2018, 04:57 PM

Honestly, no harm in doing it. I dosed a fully loaded SPS tank with red FWs, and saw no ill effects...other than to the FWs of course. I had a bunch of discussion with the Salifert guy that use to post here (Habib?), and based on his recommendations, I double the dose on the first dose, and then triple the dose on the second treatment. The key is to get out as many as you can before the treatment (which doesn't seem to be an issue for you), and to suck them out as they die (which may or may not be an issue for you).

lighthouze08 · 04/09/2018, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phenom5

Honestly, no harm in doing it. I dosed a fully loaded SPS tank with red FWs, and saw no ill effects...other than to the FWs of course. I had a bunch of discussion with the Salifert guy that use to post here (Habib?), and based on his recommendations, I double the dose on the first dose, and then triple the dose on the second treatment. The key is to get out as many as you can before the treatment (which doesn't seem to be an issue for you), and to suck them out as they die (which may or may not be an issue for you).

Agreed, you have to at least double the dose to kill them. I usually wait a week then dose again to get rid of the rest

BrettDS · 04/09/2018, 08:32 AM

I think I’m going to go ahead and try to get some flatworm exit from a LFS today and dose both the main tank and the invert Q tank. I feel like trying to catch this problem early is going to be key to avoiding too much in the way of side effects.

I’m more worried about the Q tank because it’s only 8 gallons and there are more flatworms in there. I wouldn’t say that it’s overrun by flatworms by any means, but if I spend a minute or two looking I can find some on the glass or rocks.

But at least the good news is that the fact that it’s small means that it’s easy to do big water changes if necessary.

eschaton · 04/09/2018, 08:39 AM

I used Flatworm Exit years ago. One word of caution is if you have any echinoderms in your tank, it could kill them. When I dosed it caused a lot of the mini brittlestars in my tank to start falling apart. Since they reproduce in the tank their numbers recovered eventually, but it took many months to recover.

BrettDS · 04/09/2018, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

I used Flatworm Exit years ago. One word of caution is if you have any echinoderms in your tank, it could kill them. When I dosed it caused a lot of the mini brittlestars in my tank to start falling apart. Since they reproduce in the tank their numbers recovered eventually, but it took many months to recover.

Hmm, that’s making me think twice then. I have a blue linkia star that’s been in the tank for nearly two years as well as a large brittle star. I also have several urchins and a cucumber that I’ve had for nearly three years.

Subsea · 04/09/2018, 09:32 AM

One more caution on using a controlled pesticide dosage to target a specific pest, Red Planaria will build up an immunity to normal dosages. The tank I treated was 20 years mature. It did not kill all Planaria on normal dosage and I gradually staged up which allowed for immune response. I hired a Melanarious Wrasse to clean up infestation. He descimated Red Plananaria, mini brittle starfish and most other detrivores in 6” deep
Jaubert Plenum sandbed.

When I move stuff from this 25 year old tank, I bath it in one of two baths and on occasion, both soaks: 10 minutes of a 10% solution of hydrogen peroxide and tank water. This dip is specifically for addressing algae growth on live rock, but it is collateral damage to Red Planaria, bristle worms, micro stars, pods and the list goes on. The second dip I use on decorative macro from this tank is a ten fold dose of FlatWorm X treatment for 30 minutes. It kills Red Planaria but is less lethal on other micro inverts with some survivors.

BrettDS · 04/09/2018, 09:59 AM

I have a Christmas wrasse in the DT, so he might take care of the flatworms there, but that won’t help the fuge or the frag tank on the same system.

At this point I think I’ll go ahead and dose the QT that I know is infected and probably do so with a large dose to try to stop them before it goes too far.

I might hold off on the display system until I see how the invert system goes and also see if I notice any flatworms in the DT. Maybe I got lucky and they didn’t come over. When I moved the cheato over I did attempt to rinse it quite well in two separate baths of tank water.

BrettDS · 04/09/2018, 04:07 PM

I got the flatworm exit and went ahead and dosed the QT. I gave it a pretty strong dose at 2.5 or 3 times the recommended amount, then added a good amount of carbon after I started seeing flatworm dieoff.

I only dosed it 30 minutes ago, but so far I’m not seeing any signs of stress from anything in the tank (other than the flatworms).

Hopefully that’s the end of my flatworm problem. Although I may dose again in a few days just to catch anything that might hatch between now and then.

I’m still a little hesitant to dose the display system, so I may just try to keep a very close eye on it and only dose if I actually see a flatworm.

NO3 · 04/09/2018, 04:50 PM

Buy a melanurus hoven wrasse and all flatworms will be eaten in 48-72hrs

BrettDS · 04/09/2018, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NO3

Buy a melanurus hoven wrasse and all flatworms will be eaten in 48-72hrs

The problem is that this would only get the ones in the display tank, but it would do nothing for the sump, the fuge, or the frag tank on the same system.

It’s certainly something I will consider if it starts to become a major problem in my display system and I need to keep them in check, but I’m hoping it won’t come to that.

billdogg · 04/09/2018, 04:56 PM

I have used it at 2x strength in my 120DT, a mostly SPS system that's been up for 5 years now. It knocked the flatworms back, but didn't come close to getting rid of them all.

What did it for me was a pair of Blue Star Leopard Wrasses. When the first one hit the water it went immediately to my large Elegance and carefully started plucking flatworms from it. Within 2 weeks or so you couldn't find one anywhere, and the pair was fat and happy. They spend their days cruising the reef looking for morsels. As an added benefit, at lest IMHO, they are one of the most striking reef safe fishes to look at.

BrettDS · 04/11/2018, 03:32 PM

Unfortunately I found a few more flatworms in the QT. I gave it another strong dose of flatworm exit which got rid of the few I saw. I’m not sure how long their eggs take to hatch, but I’m hoping that these came from eggs that existed before I did the first dose. I’ll keep a close eye on the tank for the next few days and dose again if necessary, but hopefully I can break the life cycle and kill any new ones before they have a chance to lay eggs.

The good news is that I haven’t found any in the display system yet, so I’m still hopeful that I may have dodged a bullet there.

Worst case I can break down the QT and sanitize everything if I need to. Given that it’s only 8 gallons it wouldn’t be a ton of work, but I’m definitely hoping it won’t come to that.

BrettDS · 04/14/2018, 07:04 PM

I found more flatworms on Friday in the QT, but still none in the DT. I did another dose of flatworm exit on Friday to get rid of those and I just did another dose tonight even though I didn’t see any in the hopes of trying to break the life cycle. I’ll probably dose again tomorrow and see how it looks after that.

BrettDS · 04/20/2018, 05:18 PM

Hopefully this is the last update. I saw one flatworm on Saturday and dosed again, then I did one final dose on Sunday and I haven’t seen any new flatworms since then. I’m hoping they are completely gone. I never saw any in the DT, so I think I might be safe there.

Daddi0 · 04/20/2018, 05:42 PM

I probably have some flatworms in my reefs. It seems from what I've read that flatworm exit is hit or miss on getting all of them, so I just picked up some Springers Damsels. They are supposed to love flatworms.

04/08/2018, 02:02 PM	#1
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	Dosing flatworm exit on display tank even without signs of flatworms? I recently set up an invert quarantine tank. I’ve been quarantining new inverts in it as well as some cheato. The cheato finished its quarantine period and I added it to the sump of my main tank... and a week later I discovered what appears to be reddish brown flatworms on the glass in the Q tank. Unfortunately nothing was added to the Q tank between the time I took out the cheato and the time I saw the flat worms. So I’m guessing that they were brought in on something while the cheato was in the QT and quite likely they now exist in my display tank having been transferred with the cheato. So in doing research on flatworms and flatworm exit it looks like flatworm exit is generally considered reef safe, but as flatworms die they release a toxin that can cause health issues for fish and inverts, especially if a large number of flatworms die at once. So, I’m thinking that it might make sense to dose my tank now while the flatworm population is still very low even though I’m not 100% certain that the tank is even infected, rather than waiting until I see evidence of flatworms and risk more die off and a bigger toxin release. What are your thoughts on this? Last edited by BrettDS; 04/08/2018 at 02:08 PM.

04/08/2018, 04:57 PM	#5
phenom5 Unregistered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,096	Honestly, no harm in doing it. I dosed a fully loaded SPS tank with red FWs, and saw no ill effects...other than to the FWs of course. I had a bunch of discussion with the Salifert guy that use to post here (Habib?), and based on his recommendations, I double the dose on the first dose, and then triple the dose on the second treatment. The key is to get out as many as you can before the treatment (which doesn't seem to be an issue for you), and to suck them out as they die (which may or may not be an issue for you). __________________ Rob Current Tank Info: DSA 155 Pro \| ATI Sunpower \| ATB 840 v2 \| Apex \| Wav

04/09/2018, 09:32 AM	#10
Subsea Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,882	One more caution on using a controlled pesticide dosage to target a specific pest, Red Planaria will build up an immunity to normal dosages. The tank I treated was 20 years mature. It did not kill all Planaria on normal dosage and I gradually staged up which allowed for immune response. I hired a Melanarious Wrasse to clean up infestation. He descimated Red Plananaria, mini brittle starfish and most other detrivores in 6” deep Jaubert Plenum sandbed. When I move stuff from this 25 year old tank, I bath it in one of two baths and on occasion, both soaks: 10 minutes of a 10% solution of hydrogen peroxide and tank water. This dip is specifically for addressing algae growth on live rock, but it is collateral damage to Red Planaria, bristle worms, micro stars, pods and the list goes on. The second dip I use on decorative macro from this tank is a ten fold dose of FlatWorm X treatment for 30 minutes. It kills Red Planaria but is less lethal on other micro inverts with some survivors. __________________ Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

04/09/2018, 04:56 PM	#15
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	I have used it at 2x strength in my 120DT, a mostly SPS system that's been up for 5 years now. It knocked the flatworms back, but didn't come close to getting rid of them all. What did it for me was a pair of Blue Star Leopard Wrasses. When the first one hit the water it went immediately to my large Elegance and carefully started plucking flatworms from it. Within 2 weeks or so you couldn't find one anywhere, and the pair was fat and happy. They spend their days cruising the reef looking for morsels. As an added benefit, at lest IMHO, they are one of the most striking reef safe fishes to look at. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

04/20/2018, 05:42 PM	#19
Daddi0 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Redwood City Posts: 1,354	I probably have some flatworms in my reefs. It seems from what I've read that flatworm exit is hit or miss on getting all of them, so I just picked up some Springers Damsels. They are supposed to love flatworms. __________________ 2x 65g displays with a 30g cryptic refugium and 30g sump - 55g reef 30g Bio-cube reef - I.M. 30g reef - 45g freshwater

04/08/2018, 03:22 PM	#2
rvareef In Memoriam Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 664	your display now has them, once you can see them its usually an infestation, get a wrasse or anther cool fish that likes to eat them

04/08/2018, 03:30 PM	#4
Dsekula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sterling Posts: 271	It's great to have a fish that would eat them but idk the likely hood of the fish getting them off certain corals (many lps come to mind and they love those fleshy tentacle parts) most fish won't really enter the tentacles , so it kind of depends what stock op has. Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

04/09/2018, 08:32 AM	#7
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	I think I’m going to go ahead and try to get some flatworm exit from a LFS today and dose both the main tank and the invert Q tank. I feel like trying to catch this problem early is going to be key to avoiding too much in the way of side effects. I’m more worried about the Q tank because it’s only 8 gallons and there are more flatworms in there. I wouldn’t say that it’s overrun by flatworms by any means, but if I spend a minute or two looking I can find some on the glass or rocks. But at least the good news is that the fact that it’s small means that it’s easy to do big water changes if necessary.

04/09/2018, 08:39 AM	#8
eschaton Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 35	I used Flatworm Exit years ago. One word of caution is if you have any echinoderms in your tank, it could kill them. When I dosed it caused a lot of the mini brittlestars in my tank to start falling apart. Since they reproduce in the tank their numbers recovered eventually, but it took many months to recover.

04/09/2018, 09:59 AM	#11
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	I have a Christmas wrasse in the DT, so he might take care of the flatworms there, but that won’t help the fuge or the frag tank on the same system. At this point I think I’ll go ahead and dose the QT that I know is infected and probably do so with a large dose to try to stop them before it goes too far. I might hold off on the display system until I see how the invert system goes and also see if I notice any flatworms in the DT. Maybe I got lucky and they didn’t come over. When I moved the cheato over I did attempt to rinse it quite well in two separate baths of tank water.

04/09/2018, 04:07 PM	#12
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	I got the flatworm exit and went ahead and dosed the QT. I gave it a pretty strong dose at 2.5 or 3 times the recommended amount, then added a good amount of carbon after I started seeing flatworm dieoff. I only dosed it 30 minutes ago, but so far I’m not seeing any signs of stress from anything in the tank (other than the flatworms). Hopefully that’s the end of my flatworm problem. Although I may dose again in a few days just to catch anything that might hatch between now and then. I’m still a little hesitant to dose the display system, so I may just try to keep a very close eye on it and only dose if I actually see a flatworm.

04/09/2018, 04:50 PM	#13
NO3 In Memoriam Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 269	Buy a melanurus hoven wrasse and all flatworms will be eaten in 48-72hrs

04/11/2018, 03:32 PM	#16
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	Unfortunately I found a few more flatworms in the QT. I gave it another strong dose of flatworm exit which got rid of the few I saw. I’m not sure how long their eggs take to hatch, but I’m hoping that these came from eggs that existed before I did the first dose. I’ll keep a close eye on the tank for the next few days and dose again if necessary, but hopefully I can break the life cycle and kill any new ones before they have a chance to lay eggs. The good news is that I haven’t found any in the display system yet, so I’m still hopeful that I may have dodged a bullet there. Worst case I can break down the QT and sanitize everything if I need to. Given that it’s only 8 gallons it wouldn’t be a ton of work, but I’m definitely hoping it won’t come to that.

04/14/2018, 07:04 PM	#17
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	I found more flatworms on Friday in the QT, but still none in the DT. I did another dose of flatworm exit on Friday to get rid of those and I just did another dose tonight even though I didn’t see any in the hopes of trying to break the life cycle. I’ll probably dose again tomorrow and see how it looks after that.

04/20/2018, 05:18 PM	#18
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	Hopefully this is the last update. I saw one flatworm on Saturday and dosed again, then I did one final dose on Sunday and I haven’t seen any new flatworms since then. I’m hoping they are completely gone. I never saw any in the DT, so I think I might be safe there.