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11/07/2017, 11:41 AM | #26 | |
Chartered Accountant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,219
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Quote:
QT fish - I can do. But is it really even realistic to QT inverts, snails, ect? I don't think so but that's by .02 cents
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- Shaginwagon - Current Tank Info: 550 Gallon SPS Reef l 200 Gallon Sump l Skimmer: Vertex Alpha 250 l Return Pump: Reeflo Hammerhead l Tank Circulation: (2) Maxspect Gyre XF280 l Lighting: (3) 400w Halides & (3) AI Hydra 52 HD |
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11/07/2017, 03:41 PM | #27 | |
Grizzled & Cynical
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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11/07/2017, 04:09 PM | #28 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,882
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I say fallow tank advice is useless.
I remember one line in Jurassic Park, when the scientist realize that the clones they had manipulated were now reproducing, “Nature finds a way”. I say the same applies to this fallow tank advice. I personally think it is a dormant cocoon in substrate. A classic illustration of this has been documented with bacteria. Red Sea salt has natural sea salt as part of its make-up. When Ken Felderman was testing bacteria responses to carbon dosing in reef tanks, he found some unusual bacteria populations with the tank in question having Red Sea salt. When I posted this, I was blasted by unbelievers because a PHD chemist on this website said it could not happen. In the last two years, salt crystals identified as > 200 million years shocked the scientific community with a bacteria that they could not identify.
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Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout |
11/07/2017, 04:18 PM | #29 |
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Simon,
I am enjoying this conversation with you. I think the subject matter merits a wider audience. Not because I want more input than yours, but because too many reefers are misinformed by faulty information from the scientific community. Be sure they will protect their own and will attack this position. Do you think that it should be in Advanced Topics, Disease Treatment, Reef Discussion or all three. I am not the OP, but I think moderators should consider the merit of this conversation to a larger audience.
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Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout |
11/08/2017, 06:05 AM | #30 | |
Saltwater Addict
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
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Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs |
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11/08/2017, 06:10 AM | #31 | |
Saltwater Addict
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vandalia OHIO
Posts: 11,624
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Quote:
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Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs |
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11/08/2017, 06:21 AM | #32 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 311
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Are you guys suggesting i not stress about ich and do ich management?
The snail and coral topic is exactly what i was thinking. How do i ensure corals and snails don't bring ich to tank? My bigger tank is cycling now. I'm thinning pulling my rock sand and corals and inverts out of my 55put in main tank for 76days. Then put pvc in the 55 and treat all fish with cupramine for 10days. Then. Move them to big tank. Going forward ill qt all fish in cupramine for 14days. I'll leave corals in separate quarantine for 76days but not sure howto handle lighting properly to keep the corals alive long enough to go to big tank. As far as snails/ inverts I'm not sure how to quarantine as they need algae to eat, and can't put them in cupramine. |
11/08/2017, 07:17 AM | #33 |
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I think you should always have an eye toward ich management even with QT and TTM procedures in place. Subsea, I'm not disagreeing with your points about immune system. All of that is very true and one would be reckless to not think along these lines. BUT, there are two things to consider: 1) fish in the ocean do not have to worry about exponential reproduction of parasites like they do in captivity. The health of the individual does matter but it only takes one fish with a weak(er) immune system to doom the entire tank. 2) I do think it is important to be proactive with the new additions. TTM means no chemicals and uses the life cycle of ich to your advantage. It is very easy and only takes 12 days. From there, you can do whatever chemical treatments you wish (though freshwater dips are effective for some parasites as well). At the minimum, an observation period will be helpful, especially if you're putting the fish[es] into a large tank where they will be difficult to capture. For my fish, I do TTM and then put them into the refugium where I can monitor them for about a month. I'm changing it up slightly to include some medicated foods (metroplex) to ensure there are no gut parasites. Also important to look carefully for monotremes (clear!), hook worms, and isopods, etc. Those are more easily observed and remedied.
There is already a lot of information on ich in the Fish Disease forum. And you are right that people will have a very staunch stance on ich and other parasites. So I'm not sure how much it will help to post in there given what has already been written in this thread. In my opinion, this is the best of both worlds in terms of advice and information. A little proactive, chemical-free treatment, followed by immune boosting diet will go a LONG way toward ensuring the fish you add are happy and healthy! |
11/08/2017, 08:40 AM | #34 | |
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Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout |
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11/10/2017, 10:43 AM | #35 |
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Location: Great Falls, MT
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Agree with dmorty here, larger tank equals larger problems. (more $$$ on creatures you might lose).
more water volume doesn't help, as ich falls off at night where the fish sleeps, and in a heavily stocked tank it will be easy for it to find a host. Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich in them and the fish are able to fight it off. Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich that wiped out all of their fish that feed and do everything the other guys do. I prefer to ensure all parasites are eradicated. 90 days fallow -for anything wet. macro algae, inverts, corals... all need to be in a fishless system for 90 days. for fish my preferred method is chloroquine phosphate, treats most parasites(like ich and brook), and prazipro gets the other parasites. 30 days of treatment/observation then in the display tank they go. -can't use it on some wrasse, pipefish, or sea horses.. so tank transfer is better for ich on the wrasse. Then you don't have to worry about ich someday getting out of hand... finding a weak fish, multiplying to the point they start overwhelming them.. etc... and yes, tangs tend to be the easiest target for ich to attach to.
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300 gallon 8ft long, 2x xf250 gyre, reef octopus 250-int - work in progress Aquarist since 1986 |
11/10/2017, 05:07 PM | #36 |
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My 2 cents.
240 gal tank got ich not so long time ago. Bought a fish from place I knew I shouldn't buy. Quarantine wasn't long enough, I suspect. I panicked. Started to catch all my fishes, freshwater dips, etc. Too much of headache. Lost few fishes during treatment (I think the catching them, freshwater dips, etc was too much stress, which is killer when combined with ich). Finally used cupramin, which took care. Tank was fallow for 80 days. Moved fish back. In 3-4 weeks noticed ich on chocolate tang. The fish was eating like a pig, so I decided to ignore it. For 3 weeks he had few white spots on/off. Same time I realized my nitrates were too high (messing with DIY coral food) - 70 ppm or so. Bumped vodka addition, water changes, etc. Nitrates went down to 0 in few days. The tang was healthy again couple of days later. No problem since that incident. Recently I added Achilles tang, which is ich magnet. Of course, he got white spots within week or so. But they're pretty much all gone by now. So, I proved for MYSELF that: 1) Ich may exist in fish tank. Dormant? Maybe. How long can it be dormant? Who knows. 80/90 days maybe good for one strain, but maybe not enough others (ich should have different genetic variations, correct?) 2) Optimal fish conditions is a must for disease-free tank. Who knows what is in my tank besides ich. I use variety of foods and always add diy selcon/garlic/vitamins/etc. I'd like to use blackworms like PaulB but nobody around here carries them. 3) In may case high nitrates triggered infection. And, of course, quarantine all new fishes. |
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