Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:12 PM   #1
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Failure to thrive

I apologize for what will be a long post. I have searched the archives but can’t find what I need there.

I have the most general of problems – failure of the tank to thrive. The tank has been set up for 5+ years now with the intention of keeping a variety of mushrooms. The current inhabitants are examples of Discosoma, Rhodactis, and Ricordea. There is also a coral banded shrimp, a Tracey’s damsel, and a small fighting conch. There is also a small start of Caulastrea picked up as an impulse buy at the LFS.

The shrimp, fish, and conch have been in the tank for several years. The mushrooms and Caulastrea for months to up to about a year. Over the life of this tank the mushrooms I have introduced has simply failed to thrive. They slowly regress to and fade away. I have not had significant algae issues except for a significant hair algae outbreak on one occasion and a persistent low-level bubble algae issue. The tank has had a variety of snails, but they always die out and were never very effective anyway.

My water quality is always pretty good with the most consistent issue being a lower (than I would like) calcium and alkalinity. These are remedied with ongoing pour- in supplementation with 2-part supplement from BRS. Water is changed at about 7% monthly. Evaporation is replaced with a Tunze osmolater and water filtered through a BRS 5 stage RODI unit.

I have used a Tunze skimmer in the past, but it never really produced much, and it is offline right now. Feeding is exceptionally light, of course, and that probably accounts for the minimal skimate. I have a ball of Cheato in one section of the sump. It has been there for several months and appears to be slowly regressing.
The lighting is a first generation Maxspect Razr running at nearly 100% on both channels. The fixture is mounted much higher than the provided tank mounts for easier access to the tank. It is about 16” over water line and about 34” above the sand bed. I recently dropped the intensity by about 10% for fear that I am frying the mushrooms. Over time the mushrooms slowly lose color and stop expanding. They end up near a tan-brown color before fading away. They never “trumpet” up as if they are light starved until I get down to about 50%.

I have one other interesting observation. The most abundant nuisance in the tank appears to be a foraminifera of the genus Peneropolis. It occurs as a brownish sediment on the sand bed. I have photomicrographs of it but I am not sure I am adept enough to post them here. They are about 1mm across and appear to be tiny Nautili. They have a calcareous test. They occur in such great abundance that I think they are pulling my calcium and alkalinity down in a system that should not lose much calcium or alkalinity. They appear to be photosynthetic, or rather they have photosynthetic zooxanthella. If I stir the sand bed, they will largely disappear but then recur in any area of the sand bed receiving light within a few days. I found a reference to them occurring in a large public aquarium where they were described as a more “sensitive” species. They do not appear to affect any of the other inhabitants of the tank. I don’t like the brown sand bed but otherwise they seem to be benign.

I am not sure why I can’t get the mushrooms to thrive. My best idea at this point is that the spectrum or intensity of light is not suitable. I pulled the skimmer off line because some suggest that the water can be “too clean”. It has only been offline for a few weeks. I am not appreciating an advance n the algae levels yet but that is what I am expecting. I can’t find any suggested light levels or settings with this particular fixture.

If not lighting, there must be a water parameter off that I can’t measure. It is possible the water is not turbid enough or that I am missing some vital nutrient that I can’t measure. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks


PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:18 PM   #2
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Sorry for the omission. I thought my signature would show this information but apparently I have messed up the signature.

The tank is a 75G display over a 40G sump
Maxspect Razr light
Tunze skimmer currently offline
Tunze osmalator
3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber
5 Stage BRS RODI

Mc


PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:19 PM   #3
Anemone
Cloning Around

 
Anemone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Valencia, California
Posts: 25,267
Hmm. How deep is your sandbed, and how old? What are your water parameters?

And yes, it is possible your lighting is too strong for the mushrooms you have. I used to be very successful with mushrooms under VHO and CF lighting, which is much less intense than 100% LED lighting.

Kevin


__________________
Back in the pool, swimming with the sharks...

Current Tank Info: Red Sea 425XL w/Kessil AP700, Vertex 180i Skimmer, 2 x Vortech MP40s
Anemone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:28 PM   #4
Uncle99
Crab Free Zone
 
Uncle99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,906
What are your parameters and how long have they been stable at these numbers.


Uncle99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:30 PM   #5
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Thanks for the rapid reply. The sand bed is thin - about 1".

Temp 78.x degrees
S.G 1.024
pH 8.1 (Salifert)
No3 Trace (Salifert)
Mg 1250 (Salifert
Ca 380 (Hannah)
Alk 7.2 (Hannah)
PO3 0.00 (Hannah)

2 days ago

Mc


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:33 PM   #6
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
The only parameters that vary at all are CA and Alk. I have tested once monthly for a long time. Calcium varies between 350 and 410. Alkalinity has been as low as 5.3.


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:36 PM   #7
mcgyvr
Registered Member
 
mcgyvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 20,050
Tank is potentially starving for nutrients and potentially overlit...
Get nitrates up to 5 and phosphates around .03
100% on a led fixture is way overkill for shrooms...drop that way down..
Also work on maintaining a stable alk...no more than a 1dkh swing ever and shoot for like 8.5 or so


__________________
Who me?
mcgyvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 08:55 PM   #8
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Thanks for the input Mcgvr


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 09:34 PM   #9
Auston
Registered Member
 
Auston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ontario
Posts: 338
Just a quick question. How are you measuring salinity?. I had a similar issue on my old tank and it turned out to be a poor hydrometer. Got my salinity in check and everything started to do great. Just a thought


Auston is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/21/2019, 10:50 PM   #10
dabob79
Registered Member
 
dabob79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mascoutah, IL
Posts: 464
Alk needs to be higher, and I would slowly raise the SG to 1.026. 100% lighting is way overkill, as others have said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


__________________
Tank is finally wet!
USAF Veteran, 12 years
Go Cardinals!!

Current Tank Info: Marineland 93 gallon rimless cube, Radion LED/T5 Combo, Eshopps sump, Nyos skimmer, Apex controller
dabob79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/22/2019, 11:28 AM   #11
Constantine
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 128
I could send you some of my mushrooms as a test. If they don't do well, something is seriously wrong. lol I went from 5 of them 6 years ago, to over a thousand now. And I got rid of 120 last year. They'd probably thrive no matter what. I just have a 4 bulb T5 light fixture though. 200 watts over a 55 gal.


Constantine is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/22/2019, 01:29 PM   #12
drukkosz
Registered Member
 
drukkosz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Twinsburg
Posts: 934
where is your water coming from? you mentioned that you use BRS 5 stage RODI. whats the TDS?


drukkosz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/22/2019, 02:10 PM   #13
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Thank you all for the input.

1) It seems that every one agrees that lighting is too high. I have it mounted further over the waterline than the manufacturer suggests so I thought I should lean toward a greater intensity. Rather than pull it down immediately, I am going to reduce it 10% per week until I get some indication of trumpeting and then increase back up one bump. This unit has a two channel control but I have no idea what spectrum mushrooms prefer. Once I get to a steady intensity, I will play with spectrum. Advice welcome.

2) Salinity is checked with a refractometer. I hadn't check calibration in recent memory, so I checked it this morning. It is still good but that was something that hadn't occurred to me.

3) Source water used to be well water run through a water softener and a BRS 5 stage RODI. TRS always measured 0 on the output side via TDS meters mounted on the unit. About a year ago we got city water. I moved the water softener settings to minimal. I am getting about 4 on the input side to the resin canisters and 0 on the output side.

4) The advice on nitrates and phosphates is counter intuitive to me. I am not sure how I would even achieve that other than feeding more heavily although pulling the skimmer off line may cause a slight increase over time.

5) Thanks for the offer Constantine! If I am not seeing improvement after stabilizing the tank with a new lighting intensity and chem tweaks, I may take you up on it. I am in central Illinois and this is a terrible time to ship but in the spring, if I am not making progress, it could be a fun experiment to see if your population is different than what I have tried.

I will move testing to once a week now for a while and post results in case anybody is interested. Thanks all for taking the time to offer advice.

Mc


PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/22/2019, 02:27 PM   #14
crawlerman
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMc View Post
Thank you all for the input.



4) The advice on nitrates and phosphates is counter intuitive to me. I am not sure how I would even achieve that other than feeding more heavily although pulling the skimmer off line may cause a slight increase over time.



Mc

Corals need some phosphates and Nitrates. If you are really at zero, corals will starve. When I decided to start adding some sps I lowered my nitrates and phosphates to undetectable and my mushrooms, GSP, and all LPS suffered.


crawlerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/28/2019, 07:56 PM   #15
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Hello All,

This is a weekly update from the original post.

Water parameters this week:

Temp 78.8
S.G. 1.026
pH 8.1
NO3 Trace
Mg 1350
Alk 7.0
Ca 390
PO4 0.00

So water looks pretty good. Getting NO3 and phosphate up will take some time.

I bumped the lighting intensity down 10%. The light is mounted 18" over water line. Peak intensity is 60% on channel A (White or full spectrum)and 70% on channel B (Blue). I can't find any information suggesting settings for what mushrooms would prefer. There is a post in the RC archives suggesting that the mushrooms prefer blue over white light but there are no specifics.

I am not appreciating a change in the resident mushrooms yet. It is going to be difficult to quantify change in any objective way.

I intend to keep reducing light by 10% per week until I get some trumpeting. I will try to maintain these water parameters. I will also try to post weekly in hopes that this thread will help the next guy. Thanks all.

Mc


PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/29/2019, 09:30 PM   #16
ajoe
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabob79 View Post
Alk needs to be higher, and I would slowly raise the SG to 1.026. 100% lighting is way overkill, as others have said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Plus one here. Wandering if it may also be an O2 issue. Do you have some decent service agitation going on?


ajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2019, 07:21 AM   #17
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
System is running a Bean animal overflow across one end and it has an over/under/over bubble trap and a overflow weir from the cheato chamber to the main chamber in the sump. So I am getting water flowing in thin sheets in several places in the system. I hadn't considered the possibility of low oxygen. I don't even know how I would test that. Redox meter? The return is a "Y" directed across the surface of the display in two directions so there is a visible ripple from the return, across the long dimension of the tank, to the bean animal.

Thanks for the tip. I will investigate further.

Mc


PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2019, 06:56 PM   #18
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Weekly update for 2-4-2019

No test results this week. Changed approx. 7% water this weekend on a tight schedule

Dropped light intensity to 50% Channel A (white) and 60% Channel B (Blue). At this point I am not appreciating a lot of change in the mushrooms. Expansion seems about the same and I am not seeing any trumpeting yet. The photosynthetic foraminifera continue to thrive under the reduced light schedule.

I picked up a purple "frilly" Rhodactis and a colony of green Discosoma (I think) at the LFS this last weekend. They will be contrast to the existing few.

I have been reducing light intensity at about 10% per week but I am not sure that I shouldn't slow down. I may be dropping faster than the mushrooms can adapt to and I don't want to overshoot the mark. Advice on spectrum would be welcome. I am leaning blue now and becoming more blue. At 90/100, the blue channel was 10% greater than the white channel. At 50/60, the blue channel is about 20% greater than white. There is a thread in the archives that suggests that the mushrooms prefer a blue spectrum, but I don't know how blue. Advice is welcome.

Low oxygen has been suggested as an issue but I am unsure how I would test that. I am still investigating there. if there is a simple solution, please feel free.

I will water test again next weekend and post a week from tonight. Thanks for your attention and advice.

Mc


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2019, 08:07 PM   #19
ajoe
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
You would want some surface agitation for sure for adequate O2. I simply have a powerhead placed at the top 1/3 of the aquarium height and it ripples across the surface quite nicely and ensures O2 is pulled into the the system. Not sure if water trickling into the tank from overflows etc is sufficient enough and cannot judge without seeing. It might very well be just fine. Just a thought.


ajoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2019, 08:16 PM   #20
gobyvin
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fairhaven, Massachusetts
Posts: 16
Do you have any fish to provide nutrients?
What is your water change schedule and how much volume do you replace?
Are you regularly doing these water changes?
Do you use any mechanical filtration or vacuum the sediment of detritus with water changes?
What supplements do you use to maintain Ca and Alk?
What do you use for top off? Just RODI?

I am trying to get at your system parameters but think you may need to keep regular with water changes, thus keeping water stable and go easy on supplements with testing and get some nutrient producers to fertilize your invert garden...


gobyvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/05/2019, 06:55 PM   #21
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajoe View Post
You would want some surface agitation for sure for adequate O2. I simply have a powerhead placed at the top 1/3 of the aquarium height and it ripples across the surface quite nicely and ensures O2 is pulled into the the system. Not sure if water trickling into the tank from overflows etc is sufficient enough and cannot judge without seeing. It might very well be just fine. Just a thought.
My return is a "three way" elbow placed about an inch below the surface. One outlet shoots across the short end of the tank and the other is directed the length of the tank with the overflow at the other end. I get a good ripple. I am still struggling with an independent way to verify oxygen levels. It's a good thought that hadn't occurred to me

Mc


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/05/2019, 07:21 PM   #22
PMc
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield, IL
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobyvin View Post
Do you have any fish to provide nutrients?
What is your water change schedule and how much volume do you replace?
Are you regularly doing these water changes?
Do you use any mechanical filtration or vacuum the sediment of detritus with water changes?
What supplements do you use to maintain Ca and Alk?
What do you use for top off? Just RODI?

I am trying to get at your system parameters but think you may need to keep regular with water changes, thus keeping water stable and go easy on supplements with testing and get some nutrient producers to fertilize your invert garden...

The only fish is a Tracey's Damsel. He start with two others but despite my best attempts I can keep groups of fish. Even Green Chromis turn on each other until only one remains. there are several fish I would be happy to get but I think i have to dismiss the idea of keeping groups. Looks like one of each species is the practical limit.

I do about a 7% water change on the first Sunday of each month religiously.

I have never vacuumed. Instead, every two or three weeks I hook a piece of flexible tubing to the return, turn the volume all the way up, and use the water jet created to blast any accumulated sediment off the rocks and complete agitate the sand bed. I place a filter sock on the bottom end of the Bean Animal siphon. I have two MP10s placed side by side on the short end below the overflow box about two thirds of the way down to the sand bed. Normally they are turned way down but for this operation they are turned up to full. That keeps the sediment dislodged by the water jet suspended in the water column until it is swept into the overflow box and drained down through the filter sock. The system is not entirely effecient but, on the other hand, I may be eliminating a lot of micro fauna this way. A significant amount of detritus is captured each time I do this and I do it every 2-3 weeks.

Ca and Alk are maintained with BRS supplements poured in once or twice a week as testing dictates.

Top off is run through a BRS six stage RODI with a resulting TDS of 0 per the TDS meter mounted on the final output. Water quality is usually pretty stable per testing with the widest swings in Alk.

Someone has suggested that the system mey be "too clean" for mushrooms. More fish is an enticing solution.

Thanks for the interest.

Mc


__________________
75 G Display over 40 G 3 Chamber Sump
Bean Animal across the short end with two MP10s mounted below, 2/3rds of the way down
Maxspect Razor mounted 16" over water line

Current Tank Info: 75G display over a 40G sump - Maxspect Razor - Tunze skimmer currently offline - Tunze osmalator - 3 chamber sump with cheato in one chamber - 6 Stage BRS RODI
PMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/06/2019, 01:07 AM   #23
Tastee
Registered Member
 
Tastee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMc View Post
The only fish is a Tracey's Damsel. He start with two others but despite my best attempts I can keep groups of fish. Even Green Chromis turn on each other until only one remains. there are several fish I would be happy to get but I think i have to dismiss the idea of keeping groups. Looks like one of each species is the practical limit.

I have 7 fish in my 65G tank, and only one species > 1 - pair of Occ clowns. I originally had 2 Fire Gobys but after 6 months ‘then there was 1’. I’m taking the same approach as you and apart from my Clownfish pair are sticking to individuals.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Tastee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/06/2019, 08:26 PM   #24
on the spot
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,010
I would disregard the older mushrooms entirely - you added new ones yes? drop the light dramatically, and adjust up as needed to suit the new ones. Let the old ones respond in time.


on the spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/06/2019, 08:28 PM   #25
on the spot
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,010
and add a blenny.


on the spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.