Bleach vs Acid - Page 13

Tank2379 · 01/07/2011, 10:46 AM

Ok I have some LR that I have been cycling out right now my water was a bit Black yesterday. I have it in a 5G bucket I don't know how many LBS is in it but it half way full. I was thinking doing an acid bath first then bleach it will that process work just as well?

Thanks

bheron · 01/07/2011, 10:48 AM

I would def do bleach first then acid. kill the organic material first (bleach), then burn off any phosphate (acid). acid will also help remove any leftover beach.

Tank2379 · 01/07/2011, 11:11 AM

Sound good I think I will start that proces tonight

Tank2379 · 01/07/2011, 05:10 PM

How long do I leave it in for bleaching process?

HighlandReefer · 01/08/2011, 06:36 AM

Bleach will break down within 24 hrs. I would leave it in the bleach bath for 24 hrs and then scrub and remove organic matter. If there is still organic matter left, then repeat the process until the rock is clean.

Tank2379 · 01/08/2011, 07:47 AM

Sweet Thanks and for an Acid bath after that? How long for a dip couple hours?

HighlandReefer · 01/08/2011, 07:59 AM

It will depend on the amount of rock you have in the tub and the amount of acid you add. If the rock is bubbling, then the acid is still dissolving the rock. I would let it soak overnight.

After you complete the acid process and rinse the rock well, I would check the rock, by placing it in rodi water for a few days and then test the water the rock is soaking in for phosphate. If the phosphate is high, then repeat the acid treatment.

Tank2379 · 01/08/2011, 11:09 PM

Thanks again.. I more question... Can I just Bleach and not use Acid or do I have to do both process- I already have Ma Acid just wanted to know if zi had to go with this process as well?

Thanks again...
Frankie

bertoni · 01/09/2011, 12:19 AM

The bleach is good to kill organisms. The acid can remove the outer layer of the rock, which is useful if the outer layer is contaminated with phosphate.

bheron · 01/09/2011, 09:22 PM

I agree, do the acid longer than just a dip. first time around i did a quick 30 second dip. my rebuilt tank had algage within a few weeks. second time around i dipped for about 30 mins, around the time the acid stopped bubbling.

HighlandReefer - after placing the rock in RODI how long do you think it would take phosphate to leech out of the rock?

HighlandReefer · 01/10/2011, 07:05 AM

If the water is circulated with a water pump so the water at the rock surfaces is changed I would assume if the rock has significant phosphate attached you will see a rise in the water phosphate concentration, within 3 days. This does not mean if the rock has high phosphate levels attached, that all the phosphate will come out of the rock within 3 days. You would need to change the water quite a few times with high phosphate levels to get it out of the rock completely. The phosphate level on the rock and in the water will come to an equilibrium.

bheron · 01/11/2011, 04:57 PM

perfect. yet another valuable piece of info to add to this thread and the steps in this proces. thanks!

chr15_8 · 01/28/2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bheron

I agree, do the acid longer than just a dip. first time around i did a quick 30 second dip. my rebuilt tank had algage within a few weeks. second time around i dipped for about 30 mins, around the time the acid stopped bubbling.

HighlandReefer - after placing the rock in RODI how long do you think it would take phosphate to leech out of the rock?

What sort of concentration did you use the second time around?

My acid came today so im going to give it ago this weekend.

A longer dip/soak sounds like it would do more as the water/acid would have more time to penetrate the rock.

Thanks
Chris

bheron · 01/28/2011, 04:06 PM

I think I go with a 3-1 bleach and a 10-1 acid.

Good luck and post results!

chr15_8 · 01/28/2011, 04:49 PM

Thanks

I'm not doing the bleach just going to do the acid for 30 mins then.

Did it dissolve much of your rock? Was it a noticeable amount when you look at them before/after?

Will post up the results. Currently got them soaking in salty RODI water (they will of been soaking for about 15 hours).

Will get a salinity reading as well as a phosphate reading. Will do the same after I have soaked them in the acid at the exact time I tested before the acid.

bheron · 01/28/2011, 09:12 PM

you know,good question. Im not sure if I posted that on here but....yes. I definitely noticed a change in the overall mass/weight of the rock. it wasnt anything surprising since i left it cooking in acid for 30 mins. but it was noticable. figured maybe there was a 10% decrease is mass or whatever you call it. the outside was more brittle. but, that told me it was working, so i was glad.

just good to post to people know what to expect.

NasotheHutt · 01/29/2011, 07:02 AM

Is tap water ok to do the post acid rinse and soak?

HighlandReefer · 01/29/2011, 07:30 AM

Tap water can contain phosphate and copper, which can attach to your rock. I would use RODI water myself.

NasotheHutt · 01/29/2011, 01:12 PM

Ok, I have the 1st batch soaking in RODI and the 2nd one is in the acid now. When I removed the 1st batch (18hr soak) they are far from white, in fact they look more brown and dirty than they did going in. (These were dry base rock) Is this normal? How do I know for sure the acid did its job completely and no more is needed? Test for Phosphate? If so how long till it appears in the RODI water?

Thanks!

bheron · 01/29/2011, 02:17 PM

Naso - Highland is right. its so tempting to just use tap water at then end, what the heck right? but i agree, why do all the work and not use cleanr water. i made sure i didnt cut that corner.

Also, great question about the color of the rock. i really should point out of all the dips i've done it really does depend on the type of rock. some of my rock (i'm thinking its the fiji) is just dark in nature. it will never look that white when clean. then i have a bunch of other rock (tonga and solomon island I think) that looks and feels like chalk when done.

So it really does depend on the rock IMO.

bertoni · 01/29/2011, 03:30 PM

RO/DI water is safer, but most tap water probably is fine for the purpose, given the short exposure, and keeping in mind that it's not being used to make saltwater.

chr15_8 · 01/30/2011, 12:44 PM

On Saturday I soaked all the reef bones in a vinegar mix for 1 hour. I used a mix of 4:1 (RO water : vinegar).

I weighed 2 pieces of rock to see how much rock was dissolved in a 20 minutes soak of acid.

I used Hydrochloric Acid at a ratio of 10:1 (RO water : H.A.)
Once I added the rock to the mixture this is what happens

After 20 minutes of soaking I removed the foam from on top. This is what was floating around at the surface

Like I said I weighed a few pieces of rock to see how much dissolved.
Before - 1,284g

After - 1,084g

Before - 635g

After - 475g

After soaking the bones I let them soak in more fresh RO water for a few hours.

Then I washed all the bones in RO shaking them getting as much rubbish out as possible.

This is the water after the first wash in RO.

If I was to ever do this again I might be tempted to use bleach. There was still a fair amount of organics on the rocks and think the bleach would of helped remove them.

Still happy with how they have turned out. They look a lot better.

bheron · 01/30/2011, 03:39 PM

great pictures!

IMO you did two "acid" baths as both the vinegar and acid would do the same, I'm thinking. I would do BOTH bleach first, and then acid. Bleach to kill the organice then acid to remove any possible phosphase on the rock.

chr15_8 · 01/30/2011, 06:25 PM

Thanks also have a phosphate reading from before. Its a lot higher than i expected! Will post both the before and after at the same time though.

Yea i done the vinegar as a weak bath hoping the rock would absorb a little more and have a while to soak it all in. I added a power head as well to get a little water movement in there just to mix it all up.

blide · 01/31/2011, 03:30 PM

Just thought I would thank everyone for their informative posts.

I did the bleach then acid (HCL) bath.

Bleached for 24hrs -> rinsed and air dry for 48hrs
Acid Dip - 10% solution (High Purity HCL)
Rinse - Then a short soak in high alk (baking soda) solution to neutralize acid.

Oh and don't forget to use PPE when messing with this stuff!

01/07/2011, 10:46 AM	#301
Tank2379 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago(Logan Square/Humbolt Park) Posts: 4,204	Ok I have some LR that I have been cycling out right now my water was a bit Black yesterday. I have it in a 5G bucket I don't know how many LBS is in it but it half way full. I was thinking doing an acid bath first then bleach it will that process work just as well? Thanks __________________ 90G- Powered By Tek T-5 8 bulb 1X MP10wES,1 MP40wes, Waveline DC4000, Octopus Skimmer NW150, Apex lite, Eshopps RS200 sump 80G Frag system- Powered by 2X MH Pendants with 250W 20K Radiums, DIY S

01/07/2011, 10:48 AM	#302
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	I would def do bleach first then acid. kill the organic material first (bleach), then burn off any phosphate (acid). acid will also help remove any leftover beach. __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/07/2011, 11:11 AM	#303
Tank2379 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago(Logan Square/Humbolt Park) Posts: 4,204	Sound good I think I will start that proces tonight __________________ 90G- Powered By Tek T-5 8 bulb 1X MP10wES,1 MP40wes, Waveline DC4000, Octopus Skimmer NW150, Apex lite, Eshopps RS200 sump 80G Frag system- Powered by 2X MH Pendants with 250W 20K Radiums, DIY S

01/07/2011, 05:10 PM	#304
Tank2379 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago(Logan Square/Humbolt Park) Posts: 4,204	How long do I leave it in for bleaching process? __________________ 90G- Powered By Tek T-5 8 bulb 1X MP10wES,1 MP40wes, Waveline DC4000, Octopus Skimmer NW150, Apex lite, Eshopps RS200 sump 80G Frag system- Powered by 2X MH Pendants with 250W 20K Radiums, DIY S

01/08/2011, 06:36 AM	#305
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	Bleach will break down within 24 hrs. I would leave it in the bleach bath for 24 hrs and then scrub and remove organic matter. If there is still organic matter left, then repeat the process until the rock is clean. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

01/08/2011, 07:47 AM	#306
Tank2379 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago(Logan Square/Humbolt Park) Posts: 4,204	Sweet Thanks and for an Acid bath after that? How long for a dip couple hours? __________________ 90G- Powered By Tek T-5 8 bulb 1X MP10wES,1 MP40wes, Waveline DC4000, Octopus Skimmer NW150, Apex lite, Eshopps RS200 sump 80G Frag system- Powered by 2X MH Pendants with 250W 20K Radiums, DIY S

01/08/2011, 07:59 AM	#307
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	It will depend on the amount of rock you have in the tub and the amount of acid you add. If the rock is bubbling, then the acid is still dissolving the rock. I would let it soak overnight. After you complete the acid process and rinse the rock well, I would check the rock, by placing it in rodi water for a few days and then test the water the rock is soaking in for phosphate. If the phosphate is high, then repeat the acid treatment. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

01/08/2011, 11:09 PM	#308
Tank2379 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago(Logan Square/Humbolt Park) Posts: 4,204	Thanks again.. I more question... Can I just Bleach and not use Acid or do I have to do both process- I already have Ma Acid just wanted to know if zi had to go with this process as well? Thanks again... Frankie __________________ 90G- Powered By Tek T-5 8 bulb 1X MP10wES,1 MP40wes, Waveline DC4000, Octopus Skimmer NW150, Apex lite, Eshopps RS200 sump 80G Frag system- Powered by 2X MH Pendants with 250W 20K Radiums, DIY S

01/09/2011, 12:19 AM	#309
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The bleach is good to kill organisms. The acid can remove the outer layer of the rock, which is useful if the outer layer is contaminated with phosphate. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/09/2011, 09:22 PM	#310
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	I agree, do the acid longer than just a dip. first time around i did a quick 30 second dip. my rebuilt tank had algage within a few weeks. second time around i dipped for about 30 mins, around the time the acid stopped bubbling. HighlandReefer - after placing the rock in RODI how long do you think it would take phosphate to leech out of the rock? __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/10/2011, 07:05 AM	#311
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	If the water is circulated with a water pump so the water at the rock surfaces is changed I would assume if the rock has significant phosphate attached you will see a rise in the water phosphate concentration, within 3 days. This does not mean if the rock has high phosphate levels attached, that all the phosphate will come out of the rock within 3 days. You would need to change the water quite a few times with high phosphate levels to get it out of the rock completely. The phosphate level on the rock and in the water will come to an equilibrium. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

01/11/2011, 04:57 PM	#312
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	perfect. yet another valuable piece of info to add to this thread and the steps in this proces. thanks! __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/28/2011, 04:06 PM	#314
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	I think I go with a 3-1 bleach and a 10-1 acid. Good luck and post results! __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/28/2011, 04:49 PM	#315
chr15_8 Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 48	Thanks I'm not doing the bleach just going to do the acid for 30 mins then. Did it dissolve much of your rock? Was it a noticeable amount when you look at them before/after? Will post up the results. Currently got them soaking in salty RODI water (they will of been soaking for about 15 hours). Will get a salinity reading as well as a phosphate reading. Will do the same after I have soaked them in the acid at the exact time I tested before the acid.

01/28/2011, 09:12 PM	#316
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	you know,good question. Im not sure if I posted that on here but....yes. I definitely noticed a change in the overall mass/weight of the rock. it wasnt anything surprising since i left it cooking in acid for 30 mins. but it was noticable. figured maybe there was a 10% decrease is mass or whatever you call it. the outside was more brittle. but, that told me it was working, so i was glad. just good to post to people know what to expect. __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/29/2011, 07:02 AM	#317
NasotheHutt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 278	Is tap water ok to do the post acid rinse and soak? __________________ Have nothing in your home you do not believe to be beautiful, or know to be functional. - William Morris Current Tank Info: 180 delivered...working on stand

01/29/2011, 07:30 AM	#318
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	Tap water can contain phosphate and copper, which can attach to your rock. I would use RODI water myself. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

01/29/2011, 01:12 PM	#319
NasotheHutt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 278	Ok, I have the 1st batch soaking in RODI and the 2nd one is in the acid now. When I removed the 1st batch (18hr soak) they are far from white, in fact they look more brown and dirty than they did going in. (These were dry base rock) Is this normal? How do I know for sure the acid did its job completely and no more is needed? Test for Phosphate? If so how long till it appears in the RODI water? Thanks! __________________ Have nothing in your home you do not believe to be beautiful, or know to be functional. - William Morris Current Tank Info: 180 delivered...working on stand

01/29/2011, 02:17 PM	#320
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	Naso - Highland is right. its so tempting to just use tap water at then end, what the heck right? but i agree, why do all the work and not use cleanr water. i made sure i didnt cut that corner. Also, great question about the color of the rock. i really should point out of all the dips i've done it really does depend on the type of rock. some of my rock (i'm thinking its the fiji) is just dark in nature. it will never look that white when clean. then i have a bunch of other rock (tonga and solomon island I think) that looks and feels like chalk when done. So it really does depend on the rock IMO. __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/29/2011, 03:30 PM	#321
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	RO/DI water is safer, but most tap water probably is fine for the purpose, given the short exposure, and keeping in mind that it's not being used to make saltwater. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/30/2011, 12:44 PM	#322
chr15_8 Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 48	On Saturday I soaked all the reef bones in a vinegar mix for 1 hour. I used a mix of 4:1 (RO water : vinegar). I weighed 2 pieces of rock to see how much rock was dissolved in a 20 minutes soak of acid. I used Hydrochloric Acid at a ratio of 10:1 (RO water : H.A.) Once I added the rock to the mixture this is what happens After 20 minutes of soaking I removed the foam from on top. This is what was floating around at the surface Like I said I weighed a few pieces of rock to see how much dissolved. Before - 1,284g After - 1,084g Before - 635g After - 475g After soaking the bones I let them soak in more fresh RO water for a few hours. Then I washed all the bones in RO shaking them getting as much rubbish out as possible. This is the water after the first wash in RO. If I was to ever do this again I might be tempted to use bleach. There was still a fair amount of organics on the rocks and think the bleach would of helped remove them. Still happy with how they have turned out. They look a lot better.

01/30/2011, 03:39 PM	#323
bheron Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Valley Forge, PA Posts: 2,655	great pictures! IMO you did two "acid" baths as both the vinegar and acid would do the same, I'm thinking. I would do BOTH bleach first, and then acid. Bleach to kill the organice then acid to remove any possible phosphase on the rock. __________________ Bryan Current Tank Info: 220 since Nov 2005

01/30/2011, 06:25 PM	#324
chr15_8 Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 48	Thanks also have a phosphate reading from before. Its a lot higher than i expected! Will post both the before and after at the same time though. Yea i done the vinegar as a weak bath hoping the rock would absorb a little more and have a while to soak it all in. I added a power head as well to get a little water movement in there just to mix it all up.

01/31/2011, 03:30 PM	#325
blide Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 590	Just thought I would thank everyone for their informative posts. I did the bleach then acid (HCL) bath. Bleached for 24hrs -> rinsed and air dry for 48hrs Acid Dip - 10% solution (High Purity HCL) Rinse - Then a short soak in high alk (baking soda) solution to neutralize acid. Oh and don't forget to use PPE when messing with this stuff!