Bleach vs Acid - Page 4

therealfatman · 04/02/2009, 02:22 PM

The acid soaks need only be for minutes at a time if the acid concentration is high enough as to have the rocks show active effervescence (bubbling). After a few minutes, remove rock and rinse then put in a bucket with base water. It is easiest to use a seperate container for acid soaks and a seperate container for the base soak and rinse however is convenient just do not drip the acid on any organics such as carpet or wood. Just like with battery acid on your jeans, the next time you wash then you have holes in them every where the acid contacted the fabric.

If you use seperate buckets for the acid water and the base water with a clear rinse in between you can use the same water for several dips (soaks) before needing to add more acid or Draino to boost the strength. I would just add a tablespoon or two of Draino per each five gallons of water. When done doing your acid base soaks/dips just do not rinse between the two final dips. After a final water rinse put fresh water in your tub and let the rock soak a while and then check the waters pH. If needed adjust water to around a pH of 7 to 7.5.

gwenvet · 04/02/2009, 02:36 PM

Yes, I can tell you that 1/3 to 1/2 a small bottle of Drayno to about 30ish gal of water with 3 quarts of muratic acid made it VERY basic. But since I don't have a low pH kit, this way I can monitor the pH going back to 7. I realized that the brown color comes off very easily when I scrub the rock with a toothbrush. Tedious, but better than doing another bleach wash! How's everyone's else's going?

Hammsreefbeer · 04/02/2009, 03:31 PM

mine is going good,i went to lowes and all they had was Draino crystals...will that be ok?
i havent dipped in acid yet,still soaking in bleach.do i dip the rock in base water after bleach too?im going to start dipping (acid/base)after i get the bleach out of the rock.thank you

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/03/2009, 04:59 AM

Personally, I'd use baking soda to neutralize the acid rather than Draino. But sodium hydroxide (as in some drain products) can work. make sure there are no other ingredients listed.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/03/2009, 10:20 AM

thanx randy,thats what ill use.really didnt want to use draino.
almost finished,rock is nice and clean.im going to start to seed the rock with nice peices of LR this weekend.
ill let it sit for about a month or so,im only putting half the rock back in the DT,the rest will get put in the sump.im going to do a foam back wall like Customcolor did.i had a big pile of rock before,so now im setting my aquascape for sps.
Some people might think doing this is crazy and i dont have to say it made me nervous but in the end im glad i did it.

i let aiptasia's get out of control,pepperment didnt work and some time wont work but in the end ive learned from this...QT and make sure everything i put in my DT is clean and pest free(or keep an eye on thing so i dont have anymore outbrakes.
i wanted to let everyone no THANK YOU for all your help...

thanx....randy,therealfatman,LISound,gwenvet and last but not least bheron for letting me highjack his thread.

Keith P · 04/03/2009, 11:18 AM

So is it safe to say muriatic acid will kill everything and bleach is not necessary? I'm trying to eliminate colonial hydroids...

HighlandReefer · 04/03/2009, 01:15 PM

Good question.

Some hobbyists might say that if you dropped an atomic bomb on your rock, that some of the algae, bacterial & fungal spores (I use this term loosely) could survive. You may have these pests and not know it at this time.

Given the above information, I would use both to make sure. You only have one shot at getting it right, or you will have pests to deal with later on.

bertoni · 04/03/2009, 02:48 PM

Muriatic acid will kill hydroids with enough exposure and enough concentration, but I don't know how to quantify "enough". I might try a chlorine bath to be sure.

Keith P · 04/03/2009, 02:51 PM

Sorry if this was answered already....

Beach then Acid or Acid then Bleach?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/04/2009, 06:46 AM

I'd use bleach then acid.

psteeleb · 04/04/2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'd use bleach then acid.

that's how I clean everything - mild bleach, rinse, acid, rinse, rinse

works best to kill the algea's with a mild bleach and get all the slime off, sometimes I'll even use a brush after the bleach to remove the dead stuff then rinse, before using a mild acid mix, just works more effectively.

therealfatman · 04/04/2009, 09:29 PM

Actually with the amounts used and still recommended by some and used by others any one of the three will have killed everything quite well. They are however all different, some are cheaper initially but linger on like ie, chlorine especially when used to excecess. I can not see the logic behind anyone recommending or using chlorine concentrations higher than those levels used in waste water treatment facilities. And others such as the acidvcan be hard on clothing and skin but are readily neutralized and readily obtainable.

There are no free lunches as such there are no special ways even in the "world of chemistry" to make job like cleaning old slimy rock any more plesant or ecological. Given my choices and many years of cleaning up after chemists, I would say chlorine my worse choice for use in or around my aquarium. Well there is windex also. Still own a motor vehicle though. Not to many energy efficient vehicles in Arctic areas of the world.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/05/2009, 07:18 AM

A stronger bleach solution, such as 10% bleach 90% tap water, will not only kill the organisms, but it will help remove the dead tissue from the rock surface. having a lot of dead stuff on a rock will necessitate it being removed somehow.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/05/2009, 02:24 PM

here is what the tank looked like before acid soak

Hammsreefbeer · 04/05/2009, 02:30 PM

Hammsreefbeer · 04/05/2009, 02:43 PM

...

bertoni · 04/05/2009, 04:32 PM

Okay, links fixed.

Removed the "//http:".

Hammsreefbeer · 04/05/2009, 04:38 PM

thanx bertoni.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/06/2009, 10:09 PM

will you correct me if im wrong,just finished and put LR in clean ro to let it soak for a day.then ill dump refill and soak again for a couple days.i tested ph right now and it was 8.23..(only soaked for 1 hour)
So do i add a little vinagar or baking soda to drop the ph down to 7.0-7.5?
Im picking up some nice cured LR tomorrow to seed it when its ready and a couple cups of sand out of the tank to help it along.
thank you for all your help

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/07/2009, 07:15 AM

this is coming out of acid or bleach?

If from acid, it would not add anything. It is fine.

If from bleach, you need to do a lot of rinsing or dechlorinating.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/07/2009, 08:08 AM

its from acid/base soaks.4 mins in the acid,rinse,4 mins in the base,rinse,rinse.i only did this 1 time.i did have the rock soaking in mild acid(1.5 cups to 20g of water) for 2 days.i didnt smell bleach at all before starting acid/base.
should i do the acid/base one more time?the rock looks really good.i am going to rinse really good 1 more time today.can i start cycking the rock today or should i let it soak in ro for couple days?

thank you randy for putting up with me.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/07/2009, 08:11 AM

the way i tested is after all rock was rinsed and put in ro to soak,i tested that water,not acid/base water.the base ph before i started soaking was 12.54.i didnt check acid ph

Hammsreefbeer · 04/07/2009, 09:00 AM

randy,
just checked the waters ph 8.09.water is clear(no film).i dont smell anything.WYO

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/07/2009, 10:56 AM

It sounds adequately washed to me. If the pH is anywhere from 6 to 9 it is likely fine.

Hammsreefbeer · 04/07/2009, 11:26 AM

im glad its done,thank you for all your help.

04/02/2009, 03:31 PM	#78
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	mine is going good,i went to lowes and all they had was Draino crystals...will that be ok? i havent dipped in acid yet,still soaking in bleach.do i dip the rock in base water after bleach too?im going to start dipping (acid/base)after i get the bleach out of the rock.thank you __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/03/2009, 04:59 AM	#79
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Personally, I'd use baking soda to neutralize the acid rather than Draino. But sodium hydroxide (as in some drain products) can work. make sure there are no other ingredients listed. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

04/03/2009, 10:20 AM	#80
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	thanx randy,thats what ill use.really didnt want to use draino. almost finished,rock is nice and clean.im going to start to seed the rock with nice peices of LR this weekend. ill let it sit for about a month or so,im only putting half the rock back in the DT,the rest will get put in the sump.im going to do a foam back wall like Customcolor did.i had a big pile of rock before,so now im setting my aquascape for sps. Some people might think doing this is crazy and i dont have to say it made me nervous but in the end im glad i did it. i let aiptasia's get out of control,pepperment didnt work and some time wont work but in the end ive learned from this...QT and make sure everything i put in my DT is clean and pest free(or keep an eye on thing so i dont have anymore outbrakes. i wanted to let everyone no THANK YOU for all your help... thanx....randy,therealfatman,LISound,gwenvet and last but not least bheron for letting me highjack his thread. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/03/2009, 01:15 PM	#82
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	Good question. Some hobbyists might say that if you dropped an atomic bomb on your rock, that some of the algae, bacterial & fungal spores (I use this term loosely) could survive. You may have these pests and not know it at this time. Given the above information, I would use both to make sure. You only have one shot at getting it right, or you will have pests to deal with later on. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

04/03/2009, 02:48 PM	#83
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Muriatic acid will kill hydroids with enough exposure and enough concentration, but I don't know how to quantify "enough". I might try a chlorine bath to be sure. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/02/2009, 02:22 PM	#76
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,471	The acid soaks need only be for minutes at a time if the acid concentration is high enough as to have the rocks show active effervescence (bubbling). After a few minutes, remove rock and rinse then put in a bucket with base water. It is easiest to use a seperate container for acid soaks and a seperate container for the base soak and rinse however is convenient just do not drip the acid on any organics such as carpet or wood. Just like with battery acid on your jeans, the next time you wash then you have holes in them every where the acid contacted the fabric. If you use seperate buckets for the acid water and the base water with a clear rinse in between you can use the same water for several dips (soaks) before needing to add more acid or Draino to boost the strength. I would just add a tablespoon or two of Draino per each five gallons of water. When done doing your acid base soaks/dips just do not rinse between the two final dips. After a final water rinse put fresh water in your tub and let the rock soak a while and then check the waters pH. If needed adjust water to around a pH of 7 to 7.5.

04/02/2009, 02:36 PM	#77
gwenvet Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: West Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 300	Yes, I can tell you that 1/3 to 1/2 a small bottle of Drayno to about 30ish gal of water with 3 quarts of muratic acid made it VERY basic. But since I don't have a low pH kit, this way I can monitor the pH going back to 7. I realized that the brown color comes off very easily when I scrub the rock with a toothbrush. Tedious, but better than doing another bleach wash! How's everyone's else's going?

04/03/2009, 11:18 AM	#81
Keith P Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 101	So is it safe to say muriatic acid will kill everything and bleach is not necessary? I'm trying to eliminate colonial hydroids...

04/03/2009, 02:51 PM	#84
Keith P Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 101	Sorry if this was answered already.... Beach then Acid or Acid then Bleach?

04/04/2009, 06:46 AM	#85
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I'd use bleach then acid. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

04/04/2009, 09:29 PM	#87
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,471	Actually with the amounts used and still recommended by some and used by others any one of the three will have killed everything quite well. They are however all different, some are cheaper initially but linger on like ie, chlorine especially when used to excecess. I can not see the logic behind anyone recommending or using chlorine concentrations higher than those levels used in waste water treatment facilities. And others such as the acidvcan be hard on clothing and skin but are readily neutralized and readily obtainable. There are no free lunches as such there are no special ways even in the "world of chemistry" to make job like cleaning old slimy rock any more plesant or ecological. Given my choices and many years of cleaning up after chemists, I would say chlorine my worse choice for use in or around my aquarium. Well there is windex also. Still own a motor vehicle though. Not to many energy efficient vehicles in Arctic areas of the world.

04/05/2009, 07:18 AM	#88
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	A stronger bleach solution, such as 10% bleach 90% tap water, will not only kill the organisms, but it will help remove the dead tissue from the rock surface. having a lot of dead stuff on a rock will necessitate it being removed somehow. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

04/05/2009, 02:24 PM	#89
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	here is what the tank looked like before acid soak __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2. Last edited by bertoni; 04/05/2009 at 04:31 PM.

04/05/2009, 02:30 PM	#90
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	__________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/05/2009, 02:43 PM	#91
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	... __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2. Last edited by bertoni; 04/05/2009 at 04:31 PM.

04/05/2009, 04:32 PM	#92
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Okay, links fixed. Removed the "//http:". __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/05/2009, 04:38 PM	#93
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	thanx bertoni. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/06/2009, 10:09 PM	#94
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	will you correct me if im wrong,just finished and put LR in clean ro to let it soak for a day.then ill dump refill and soak again for a couple days.i tested ph right now and it was 8.23..(only soaked for 1 hour) So do i add a little vinagar or baking soda to drop the ph down to 7.0-7.5? Im picking up some nice cured LR tomorrow to seed it when its ready and a couple cups of sand out of the tank to help it along. thank you for all your help __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2. Last edited by Hammsreefbeer; 04/06/2009 at 10:29 PM.

04/07/2009, 07:15 AM	#95
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	this is coming out of acid or bleach? If from acid, it would not add anything. It is fine. If from bleach, you need to do a lot of rinsing or dechlorinating. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 04/07/2009 at 07:22 AM.

04/07/2009, 08:08 AM	#96
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	its from acid/base soaks.4 mins in the acid,rinse,4 mins in the base,rinse,rinse.i only did this 1 time.i did have the rock soaking in mild acid(1.5 cups to 20g of water) for 2 days.i didnt smell bleach at all before starting acid/base. should i do the acid/base one more time?the rock looks really good.i am going to rinse really good 1 more time today.can i start cycking the rock today or should i let it soak in ro for couple days? thank you randy for putting up with me. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/07/2009, 08:11 AM	#97
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	the way i tested is after all rock was rinsed and put in ro to soak,i tested that water,not acid/base water.the base ph before i started soaking was 12.54.i didnt check acid ph __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/07/2009, 09:00 AM	#98
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	randy, just checked the waters ph 8.09.water is clear(no film).i dont smell anything.WYO __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.

04/07/2009, 10:56 AM	#99
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	It sounds adequately washed to me. If the pH is anywhere from 6 to 9 it is likely fine. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

04/07/2009, 11:26 AM	#100
Hammsreefbeer "CUBE-ALICIOUS" Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Long Beach, Ca. Posts: 2,065	im glad its done,thank you for all your help. __________________ -DOUG SCRK member Current Tank Info: 60 CUBE(2X2X2) Acrylic cube sump w/fuge(20"x20"x16"),2' Outer Orbit Pro w/250W (M80 ballast) Pheonix14k & 3xATI Blue+&1 fuji purple,2xTunze 6055 w/ 7095,Tunze 9010 skimmer,1260 Eheim return,2 BRS dosing pumps(2 Part),BRS dual media reactor,RK2.