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03/21/2017, 06:43 PM | #4151 | |
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03/21/2017, 07:02 PM | #4152 |
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I think he's referring to the post that I quoted.
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03/21/2017, 07:04 PM | #4153 |
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Personally during my phase where I was dumping nutrients in and getting almost no algae. When I found the missing biomatter, it was in the form of 100s of grams spread between detritus in sand bed, asterina stars, micro brittle stars, and most of all - bristleworms.
Algae growth finally did take off, but it lagged the nutrient input by weeks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk |
03/21/2017, 07:56 PM | #4154 | |
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03/21/2017, 08:04 PM | #4155 |
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The phosphate can be removed by skimming or with a binder like GFO. Live rock and sand should be able to bind phosphate for some finite period of time until the matrix is at equilibrium with the water column, although calcification might continue to incorporate some phosphate into coralline and coral skeletons. Nitrate can be removed by conversion into nitrogen gas, and skimming can remove fixed nitrogen before it becomes nitrate.
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03/21/2017, 08:15 PM | #4156 | |
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03/21/2017, 08:25 PM | #4157 |
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I ordered the Pilson book from Amazon. I've read lots of theory, but no work with data showing how it work (or even if it works).
Randy mentions live rock and sand as denitrators - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry he references it as nitrate generation on the surface of rock and sand can help it diffuse into the rock and sand for denitrification. That goes back to my discussion of the sand bed surface as a potential battle zone for dinos vs. algae where the dinos have the advantage. but I don't see any supporting evidence showing depth of penetration of different elements inside rocks. Equilibrium is fine, but that's a very slow process and through a very thin shell of rock. It wouldn't be that hard - put a rock (one where a portion has been removed to test for nutrient content) in a controlled tank with very high nitrate and phosphate and measure the rate at which those elements are removed... and then remove the rock and cross-section to measure the nutrient content at different depths... data... It doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread - the question here is how to promote algae uptake of nutrients before dinos take it up. Looks like flow is one key variable in addition to the replenishing the missing nutrient (phosphate or nitrate).
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03/21/2017, 08:36 PM | #4158 |
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Awesome, glad you got it. Most excellent book I hope you'll like. I assume you got the latest 2013 revision.
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03/21/2017, 08:46 PM | #4159 |
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03/21/2017, 08:46 PM | #4160 | |
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Otherwise, the nutrients will be picked up by a lot of things like binding to CaCO3 surfaces or consumed by a myriad types of life like bacteria and the diversity of surfaces coated with periphyton. Don't forget the life you can see like your corals with the dinoflagellets in them. Then any other filtration one may have especially GAC which is shown to be much more efficient then a skimmer. Even GFO will bind more then just phosphates.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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03/21/2017, 08:51 PM | #4161 | |
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Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E6...ID=51ftxnhPr6L
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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03/21/2017, 08:56 PM | #4162 |
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I bought the softcover for $30. The pictures says second edition, but there's a little note that says that the picture is of the hardcover that's only available in hardcover for $70.
In pursuit of knowledge and avoiding the wrath of my reef-hating wife, I'll stick with the first edition as a compromise.
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03/21/2017, 09:01 PM | #4163 |
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I should have been more precise and said that the skimmer will remove organics before they can break down into nitrate and phosphate in the water column.
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03/21/2017, 09:06 PM | #4164 | |
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Quote:
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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03/21/2017, 10:23 PM | #4165 |
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I get that there are things in the tank that will use N and P but it still seems like a ridiculous amout of nutrients that are not being accounted for. I'm wondering more why algae doesn't show up right away when people are trying the dirty method.
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03/21/2017, 10:27 PM | #4166 | |
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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03/21/2017, 10:35 PM | #4167 |
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No argument here about periphyton being there. I know it can and will suck up nutrients.
So then you think we just have to feed until the things in our tanks that suck up nutrients can't suck up any more and then green hair algae will start to apear? Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk |
03/21/2017, 10:50 PM | #4168 | |
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Most people cannot keep algae out of their tanks. It takes an imbalance for dinos to take over. The remedy is to back up and add enough nutrients, light, and flow to get algae back in the game. It's not about saturating the tank to the point that there's something left over for the algae. If dinos are present, they will simply consume and grow faster, releasing toxins and killing everything. Either N, or P or both are too low. Flow is too low. or the algae-friendly zones aren't getting enough light... or a combination of those. I still think that there are some elements that are more friendly to algae.. Iron? Zinc?
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03/21/2017, 10:52 PM | #4169 | |
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I gave my input on what I do which is nothing at all above and beyond what I normally do and patience. And I don't think any one way is applicable to all types.
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rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank |
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03/21/2017, 11:11 PM | #4170 |
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so if I were to do another 3 day lights out, at the end of the 3rd day, do you think I would be able to measure any phosphate or nitrate? For some unknown reason, I can never get a measurable reading of either on this tank, no matter how much I feed. I always assumed the dinos were just too efficient at uptaking them to get a reading...
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03/21/2017, 11:18 PM | #4171 |
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dinos can survive in the dark. Many are autotrophic or heterotrophic
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03/22/2017, 01:27 AM | #4172 | |
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I'm the one that has had dinos for a decade and spent ridiculous amounts of time researching and implementing various methods on my own tank. I'm absolutely sure none even come close to have put the same effort into this than I have. Here you are holding a working solution in your hands from the best source available and refuse to use it. I swear this is my final post here until... |
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03/27/2017, 08:40 PM | #4173 |
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Wow... this thread is long. I read some of the first few pages and got some info. I also have been having a problem with what I assume are Dinos. It is like dust when I hit it with a baster. Lights off for 3 days seemed to clear it but it gradually returned despite lower light schedule. First, can someone confirm this is Dinos?
Next, I've restarted my lights out. Previously it was covering almost all my zoas and it seemed to be killing them. When I did my lights out and blasted them off with a baster, my zoas returned. So again, I'm trying to get ahead of this stuff. Where would you guys turn next? Am I reading right that it's best to get rid of the sand bed? Most of mine seem to reside on my rocks and seem to especially light the more algae ridden rock. I'd think that I need to get this rock somewhat cleaned of algae to limit the Dinos from living in it. I was going to consider restocking my CUC, but then read that Dino toxin kills snails. Not sure where to go next. Thanks for any help. |
03/27/2017, 09:10 PM | #4174 |
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technically, the only confirmation would come under a microscope. You need to take a picture and see if they match. There are several species of dinos...
but ... that looks like dinos to me. most telling is the complete absence of algae anywhere.
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03/27/2017, 09:13 PM | #4175 |
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get a UV sterilizer and run low flow through it and start an ATS and feed it.. that's what I would do if I were in your shoes.
DNA will tell you to remove all your sand and start over with a bare bottom after scrubbing your rocks too (jumping ahead ).
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