Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[bertoni]

The Jebao pump I saw looked like it'd work. I might watch the tubing for signs of brittleness or other breakage, but that's generally a good idea in any case.

[mtgh]

Originally Posted by bertoni

The Jebao pump I saw looked like it'd work. I might watch the tubing for signs of brittleness or other breakage, but that's generally a good idea in any case.

Any possibility of the acid in the vinegar corroding the dosing pump?
Thanks

[bertoni]

I doubt that vinegar would do anything to metal or most plastics. Some tubing might not hold up.

[ReefChasing]

Has anyone noticed their water getting clearer or an increase in colors on corals by dosing vinegar? Also any increase in skimmate since dosing vinegar? I read through this entire thread and did not see one mention of these.

I would like my phosphate levels to drop but also want the water to become clearer and my corals to get more color. From what I've read vodka dosing clears the water and adds colors to corals. Only downside being an increase in cyano in some cases.

[bertoni]

Some people have reported a reduction browning with vinegar. Every tank is different, though.

[Wally.B]

So I clearly understand that you need to properly ramp up vinegar dosing to find your systems ideal limit. Which I have started to prevent a green hair alage outbreak from coming back. (After a major rock scrubbing).

I did this before (different tank) as per recommendation, and I haven't had any cyano or Algae problems since. But that time it was just live rock. Fish and Corals were removed during the dosing phase, which was part of putting the rocks into total darkness for 2+ months.

Is decreasing dosing same the other way around? Stoping vinegar dosing

What I mean is if you decide to stop dosing, should you ramp down slowly to prevent a rapid death of existing bacteria in your live rock, sump bio filter, etc to avoid their bacterial death producing some kind of toxic waste?

At this point I am not dosing automatically, but will be. But lets say I go away for a week and stop manual dosing. Will that be fine? A Cold Turkey stop.

Same question applies, if i don't like the effects of vinegar dosing and just want to stop. Do I just stop, or ramp down gradually?

[taricha]

Bacteria die all the time. After you've ramped up to a large carbon dose, your tank is processing the bacteria in some way: skimming/filter feeders/bacterial film feeders etc.
The only plausible thing I could see becoming toxic is if you had a large organism like a clam or big sponge maybe that had become carbon dosing bacteria dependent, and then it slowly starved and fouled your tank after death.
That doesn't really seem likely or fast.

I've gone huge carbon doses, then cold turkey without noticeable chemistry swings.

[bertoni]

In the general case, I'd consider dropping back slowly because the tank still might need nutrient export. Since this tank doesn't have anything in it but the rock, I wouldn't bother ramping down, personally.

[tmz]

I'd back off in a tank with life in it. If you are supporting heterotrophic bacteria and then stop the organic carbon suddenly the environment is different. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria may have been limited by the heterotrophs for one thing and would need some time to pick up the slack.

[Wally.B]

Clarification on "Question for ramping down Vinegar Dosing"

I think I get the point. Good idea to Ramp down Vinegar Dosing with Life in Tank. Doesn't matter, if little, or no life.

Yes, that previous tank was just rock, so when I stopped Dosing Vinegar it was cold turkey (all went fine).

This tank specifically is... full of life (corals, liverock, Fish, snails and hermits, etc).

I am doing the Vinegar dosing to bring up Bacteria, however I am also adding ZeoBak (good bacteria mix) to seed a new BioFilter. Thus this tank will become quite bacteria active/loaded.

So I assume from comments above, I should gradually reduce my vinegar dosing to not trigger some kind of instability (shock to the system). Let the system adjust slowly over time (like all things with Reef Tanks).

[bertoni]

Okay, yes, if the tank has much in it, I'd be more cautious about sudden changes.

[Tang and Chips]

Could I get some advice please. I have a heavily stocked 166 gallon tank (total) which I will be upgrading when I move in June. So I won't be removing any of my much loved tangs but need to manage my parameters until such time.

I have been vinegar dosing for two months now going from 15 ml to 268 ml.... with no results and super high nitrates around 80. I have two skimmers which are each rated for around 400 to 600 litres, 100 kg of live rock and removed my ozone and UV.

Why is it not working..... More time, more vinegar, less vinegar or is vinegar not capable of dealing with my bio load.

[bertoni]

268 ml per day? That's a lot. I'd test for nitrite, because nitrite will confuse nitrate kits. Nitrite rarely is a problem, but if you've got a kit handy, it's easy to test. I'd also get a second opinion on the nitrate test kit.

Does the tank have a coarse substrate that contains a lot of debris? That might overwhelm the vinegar dosing.

[tmz]

268 ml is a very high dose for 166 gallon. Often it takes months for tanks starting with high nitrate to see a reduction. The heterotrophic bacteria take ammonia preferentially limiting nitrate production since when they use ammonia for N the oxidation to nitrate doesn't occur .Existing nitrate takes more time as it is largely reduced by anaerobic activity which takes longer to become established in many tanks. . It's also possible with heavy dosing that nutrients other than N or C like phosphate or iron are limiting the bacteria. Personally, I'd back off to about 100ml for the 166 gallons and wait and /or consider another way to reduce the 80ppm nitrates via water changes or a sulfur denitrator as examples.

[Tang and Chips]

Thank you for the suggestions.

I will test my nitrites however, I have double tested my nitrates with a new test kit.

I only got rid of my sulphur reactor lol as if wasn't getting air in it, it was getting blocked up. I have done some fairly large water changes and they don't seem to make a dent on my nitrates.

Tom I could cut down on my vinegar and add a little iron. Several months ago I gave up on keeping cheato on this set up as it refused to grow. Which could have been due to low iron?

[tmz]

It might be due to low phosphate.The chaeto I had doesn't grow anymore either even with some iron dosing.

I've been dosing my 650 gallon system daily with 36 ml of 80 proof vodka and 80 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar ( together they are equivalent to 368 ml vinegar or 46 ml of vodka)for over 6years. This dose along with skimming and small 1% daily water changes enables me to feed the system heavily while consistently maintaining PO4 around 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm per hanah 713 and NO3 around 0.2ppm per salifert .

When I started organic carbon dosing, the nitrates were around 50 to 80ppm . They didn't drop noticeabley until I used a diy sulfur dentrator to take them to near zero. Then they bounced to around 5ppm and sat there for months ,suddently falling to undetectable one day a month or two later.. Others have reported times as long as 8 months to get nitrate to decline with just organic carbon.

[bertoni]

Nitrite problems are very rare, but most nitrate test kits work by reducing some of the nitrate in the water to nitrite, and then measure the nitrite, since it's easier chemically to test. So whether the nitrate kit is working or not is a separate issue.

I agree that the issue might be low phosphate. That's a reasonable guess. I doubt that the issue is iron, though, since that's mostly an issue for photosynthetic organisms.

[tmz]

I agree iron is likely mostly an issue for photosynthetic organisms in a reef tank but at least one study cited by Randy in his article: " Iron: A Look At Organisms Other Than Macro Algae" notes some small but significant increases(1.7 x) in heterotrophic bacteria when extra iron is made available

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/chemistry

From it :

"....IRONEX experiments. These studies have shownthat when there is adequate nitrate and phosphate, iron may become the limiting factor for phytoplankton growth. 6-10 In IRONEX II, for example, diatoms accounted for 17% of the biomass growth prior to iron enrichment, and 79% after iron addition.11 In this test, in fact, diatoms experienced a 70x increase in population.12 It was also found in this study that cyanobacteria did not increase growth as much as diatoms. One common cyanobacterium, Prochlorococcus, actually decreased.13 Heterotrophic (nonphotosynthetic) dinoflagellate and ciliate populations increased substantially (>3x), presumably as they consumed the diatom bloom. 12 Heterotrophic bacteria experienced a smaller population increase (1.7 x).14

This other study also asserts bacteria need iron and measures the effects on two strains of heterotrophic bacteria :

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...44501307000869

Seems with heavy organic carbon dosing and large populations of hetertrophic bacteria iron might be limiting at some point.

[bertoni]

Right, but that population increase for heterotrophic bacteria could be a reaction to the increased photosynthesis.

[Tang and Chips]

I have ordered some iron and will go by the instructions contained for my tank size and not go over board as I don't have a test kit for iron.

I don't think a lack of phosphate is my problem as I had very high phosphates the first month I started dosing and slightly high about 3 weeks ago. I can't find any other test results however I have been changing my phosphate media most weeks now to insure I don't get problems again. I found using large amounts of phosphate media would block up and caused a phosphate rise.

[Fuzms]

I hope this is on topic here.

I have been trying to use vinegar dosing as a way to lower my nitrates, but so far (since early November) it hasn't appeared to make much of a difference.

I have 2 tanks using a single sump. about 200g total water volume. I have a large skimmer (curve 9). And a dosing pump. about 2"-2.5" sand beds in each tank. Well over 200lbs of rock in the system. Nitrates hover around 40ppm

I am currently adding about 84ml of vinegar a day.

I can only think of 2 possible problems. 1: I don't have enough anaerobic zone for the bacteria or 2: not enough phosphates.

any suggestions on where to start troubleshooting? or am I expecting results too soon?

[bertoni]

The bacteria that consume the vinegar do so in aerobic zones. The tank might not have enough phosphate, at least in theory. Have you measured the level recently? Three months seems long enough that you might expect some results, but I'm not completely sure. People seem to have widely varying experiences.

[SpSChief85]

So say I had a bacterial bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and not having any phosphate is my limiting factor... how would you go about putting small amounts back into the system? Egg crate in the sump?

[bertoni]

I am not sure what you mean. You can dose phosphate as some form of sodium phosphate, but I'm not sure why you would want to provide food to a bacterial bloom. What do you mean by "limiting factor"?

[taricha]

Originally Posted by SpSChief85

So say I had a bacterial bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and not having any phosphate is my limiting factor... how would you go about putting small amounts back into the system? Egg crate in the sump?

Not sure what you're getting at, "bloom" usually means massive unchecked growth. Dosing aims for steady, controlled bacterial growth.
As for the other part...
Think about CNP ratios. I would just shift to a cheap flake food that has fish meal as first ingredient and therefore higher P proportionally. You don't have to add pure P. Just proportionally more than N.

I did the inverse (low P foods) because I always had 0 nitrates, and couldn't drop P. It was working, GHA disappeared, then I got dinoflagellates. So maybe don't take my advice.